[kainite311]

So according to Street Grim, Background count affect spirits and magical critters as "...a negative dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the background count" (p.32 sidebar). What about powers that don't have a dice-pool? Concealment for instance is a neg mod to everyone else action (perception) and is not a dice pool action by the critter... Offhand I would say it reduces the modifiers. Anyone know if I am missing a RAW somewhere?


*EDIT* I meant for the example to be using the concealment power on a mundane using stealth(or not, doesn't matter really).... therefor there is no DP action that the critter or spirit is using that would be affected by the background count as it is a flat mod to the observer.

[Kiirnodel]

It doesn't affect that particular power from the spirit's side, however it does make all of the subjects of that power magical for the purposes of hiding...

So the people trying to hide using Concealment now take a penalty on their stealth checks from the background.

[Reaver]

page 395 CRB

CONCEALMENT
Type: P Action: Simple
Range: LOS Duration: Sustained
Critters with this power can mystically hide themselves,
other people, or things that someone else is
seeking. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal
to the critter’s Magic from any Perception Tests to locate
the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used simultaneously on a
number of metahuman-sized targets equal to the critter’s
Magic, or a number of much smaller targets (cats,
babies, rats, etc.) equal to the critter’s Magic x 5. Concealed
subjects can see each other if the critter allows
it. The effect lasts until the target is spotted or the critter
stops sustaining the power

The way the power works is it applies a DP modifier equal to its magic for the Perception test.

SO: If this power was on say "Mr. Twitchy tail" and "Mr. Twitchy tail" has a magic of 6, then anyone trying to spot "Mr. Twitchy tail" would have a -6DP to their perception test.

Now, If "Mr. Twitchy Tail" tries to use concealment while in a background count of 2, the DP to spot him would only be -4 instead of the -6.

[kainite311]

page 395 CRB

CONCEALMENT
Type: P Action: Simple
Range: LOS Duration: Sustained
Critters with this power can mystically hide themselves,
other people, or things that someone else is
seeking. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal
to the critter’s Magic from any Perception Tests to locate
the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used simultaneously on a
number of metahuman-sized targets equal to the critter’s
Magic, or a number of much smaller targets (cats,
babies, rats, etc.) equal to the critter’s Magic x 5. Concealed
subjects can see each other if the critter allows
it. The effect lasts until the target is spotted or the critter
stops sustaining the power

The way the power works is it applies a DP modifier equal to its magic for the Perception test.

SO: If this power was on say "Mr. Twitchy tail" and "Mr. Twitchy tail" has a magic of 6, then anyone trying to spot "Mr. Twitchy tail" would have a -6DP to their perception test.

Now, If "Mr. Twitchy Tail" tries to use concealment while in a background count of 2, the DP to spot him would only be -4 instead of the -6.

While I agree in principle (similar to what I said in my OP). RAW, the background only affects the critter's own Dice Pool actions. I messed up in my OP example as I meant for the power to be used on a mundane. As concealment is not a "dice pool" action used by the critter when applied to the mundane... hopefully that clarifies what I was getting at. Editing OP to state that

[Kiirnodel]

That's sort of what I was trying to say. The Concealment power on an otherwise mundane target makes actions affect by concealment considered to be "magical" while in an area of background count.

For example, a Force 6 Spirit uses Concealment on a Runner Team while they are in an area with a 3 point Background. The entire team would take a -3 dice pool penalty on tests that are affected by Concealment.

Now, you might ask "what tests are affected by concealment? The power gives a penalty to the opponent, not the target of the power!"

"Quite simple," I would respond. Most of those tests are opposed tests! If a guard (for instance) is making a test to notice the team, they are likely making opposed Sneaking vs. Perception tests. The guard would take the normal -6 Concealment penalty, while the team would suffer from a -3 from the background.

That's how I would rule it at least. You could conceptually apply it as a counteraction of the penalty from Concealment, which would have approximately the same effect, but I think this way is more interesting as well as more closely following the rules as written.

[kainite311]

Pretty much agree, just justifying it a little differently. However another issue is what if they are not actively using stealth (or extrapolate to other powers), they are just using the flat out raw power of concealment (the neg mod to the perception check, albeit 1 hit sees them). Hence why my solution was to subtract from the power itself, vs the stealth (that way it always logically applies even when there is no 'opposed test'). This would also carry over to other powers that work in a similar fashion, but may not have an opposed test per se.

[Kiirnodel]

Well, not all magic functions in the same way, there are definitely some powers out there (and spells, and adept powers) that are better for use within a background than others.

As far as the trying to use Concealment without actually sneaking, I would probably agree and use the background as a bonus to the people trying to detect them. But more than likely I would also just make them automatically spotted unless there are extreme circumstances. There's a big difference between attempting to sneak and not getting many hits, and just not trying at all. No threshold vs unopposed is a subtle difference, but one that the runners shouldn't just assume works in their favor automatically.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I could see a BCG affecting the Sneaking rolls of characters being subjected to the Concealment power.

The fundamental question with regards to whether something is penalized by a BCG is "is magic enhancing the activity?"  If someone had an Enhance Agility spell sustained on them they'd suffer a BCG penalty... I could see Concealment doing the same thing.  Although mechanically, it's probably easier/more elegant/better to just diminish observers' penalties by the amount of the BCG.

[SpellBinder]

This was relatively easier when BGC negatively impacted your Magic attribute directly.

Actually, I feel a lot of things involving BGC were easier when it just reduced your Magic attribute.

In the very least, as the user of Concealment is most likely dual natured, it will be taking a negative dice pool penalty to all actions; so while Concealment itself may not be impacted at all by BGC its very own Sneaking skill will take a hit (ref Street Grimoire, page 32).

[Michael Chandra]

If a critter uses Concealment on itself, sure. But Concealment also is something done on others by Spirits. And since Concealment doesn't require line of sight or line of effect to sustain, with BGC directly reducing Magic it'd have zero impact on Concealment if the spirit just stayed outside. At least now it does impact.

[SpellBinder]

Really?  Perception is Intuition based, Sneaking is Agility based, and using Concealment is not a test.  It just happens and applies its effects completely unopposed.  Hell, in reading I could see an attempt at logic to try and claim BGC's application of a dice pool penalty means an even bigger penalty to Perception while using Concealment, not that I'd ever expect that to fly at any gaming table.

Overall, since I first read the rules on how BGC works in SR5 it's been less threatening to me than it has in previous editions.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Using Concealment is not a test, just like using Killing Hands is not a test.  However, just like Killing Hands, it indirectly affects the outcome of a test.  Sneaking in the case of Concealment, and Unarmed Combat in the case of Killing Hands.

Concealment is a magical effect and it makes you harder to be seen.  That's pretty plainly affecting the outcome of your Sneaking test by almost any measure.  I'd say it's perfectly appropriate to trigger BGC penalties for someone getting a Concealment buff from a friendly spirit.

[Michael Chandra]

Overall, since I first read the rules on how BGC works in SR5 it's been less threatening to me than it has in previous editions.

Works for me.

Anyway: Killing Hands is impacted, remember? "A background count impose a negative dice pool penalty equal to its rating for all tests linked in any way to magic". Your opposed test has you buffed through a magic-imposed penalty on the other side. That means you suffer the penalty.

[kainite311]

Also I keep reading in a lot of older posts that BC reduces the Force of a Spirit. If so, is that when walking into the area? What about summoned in the area? Seems kind of double whammy to reduce force and -BC to all actions (though I am not against it). I cannot find this anywhere. Only thing concrete I can find is p32 of Street Grimoire.

[Kiirnodel]

That is how they worked in previous editions. Now, because they are innately magical, they always suffer from the background penalty, so that is the effect on Spirits.