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War!

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The Laughing Man

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« Reply #45 on: <12-28-10/0226:32> »
To MikeW: Thanks for the reply Mike. And for clearing that bit of story up. It's good to know you guys are listening. It's a good book and I'm sure alot of GM's and players will find it useful despite what some of the trolls say. I guess when it comes down to it I'm thinking too much in terms of logic and reasoning when it comes to war, when wars are often based on hate and greed more than logic. And the Azzies have more than enough of both. Too me it seems impractical, but so does blood magic.

To Semerkhet: I'm sorry if my writing isn't up to your taste. I was trying to give a review that fans could find useful that wasn't full of personal attacks on the writers while pointing out trivial bullshit. Did you stop to think maybe the biases are franktrollmans? We may have had some similiar points, but while I was commenting on the writing he spent most of his review attacking the writers and criticizing the editors. I actually like this book, I just think it has some flaws that needed to be addressed.

Please don't compare me to trolls.
« Last Edit: <12-28-10/0229:32> by The Laughing Man »

Semerkhet

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« Reply #46 on: <12-28-10/0928:45> »
To Semerkhet: I'm sorry if my writing isn't up to your taste. I was trying to give a review that fans could find useful that wasn't full of personal attacks on the writers while pointing out trivial bullshit. Did you stop to think maybe the biases are franktrollmans? We may have had some similiar points, but while I was commenting on the writing he spent most of his review attacking the writers and criticizing the editors. I actually like this book, I just think it has some flaws that needed to be addressed.

Please don't compare me to trolls.
Please do not read a personal attack where there was none.  I didn't say that your review wasn't useful and I thought I made abundantly clear that there are biases on all sides.  Nevertheless, you seem to have read a personal attack into my post when my intent was to show you that you and Frank Trollman found most of the same problems with the book but reached different conclusions.  Sure, Frank's review is full of vitriol and personal attacks but that doesn't mean that parts of it can't be spot on.  I would hope that people could look at Frank's writing and dispassionately separate the useful bits from the ranting.  Also, thank you for your review which did not include ranting and personal attacks.

Edited for more concise conclusion:
My main point is that by comparing reviews with different biases to find commonalities, I can narrow the error bars for that elusive point on the line we call truth.
« Last Edit: <12-28-10/1002:16> by Semerkhet »

FastJack

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« Reply #47 on: <12-28-10/1123:35> »
Both miscommunications offset, both parties are apologetic. We can continue with discussion on the material covered in War! and forget about errata or politics regarding CGL books.

The Laughing Man

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« Reply #48 on: <12-28-10/1242:44> »
 Guess I did jump to conclusions a bit there, my bad.  ;D That Franktrollman guy just rubs me the wrong way. With his heavily biased reviews and how he releases "leaks" and all that with no intention but only to further his own pre-conceived notions of CGL. When someone said my review was similiar I took it the wrong way. But Jack's right I'll get back on subject.

 We finally got rules for something similiar to power armor and exoskeletons in the equipment section!  8)

 I'm itching for that Milspec book after looking at the EQ from War!. Anyone know when it comes out?

Semerkhet

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« Reply #49 on: <12-28-10/1252:41> »
Speaking of gear and such I am in a bind.  I have zero, nada, zilch interest in Bogota for my current campaign.  Yet it seems as though there is a fairly sizable chunk of crunch in the book; weapons, gear, spells, adept powers, expanded Leadership rules, new grenade rules.  All of that is something I'd like to take a look at but I am peeved that I am being asked to purchase a setting book I have no interest in so that I can get access to rules and gear.  Any chance the crunch will be separated into its own stand-alone pdf?

FastJack

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« Reply #50 on: <12-28-10/1350:56> »
Generally, they don't separate out the Gear/Rules section out from the book, so you're probably out of luck. Now, they may publish a PDF-only update to the Gear tables in Augmentation to show all the gear available and where to find it, if we ask kindly... ;)

Dead Monky

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« Reply #51 on: <12-28-10/1355:15> »
That's what Post-It notes are for.

Mäx

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« Reply #52 on: <12-28-10/1630:17> »
spells, adept powers,
There are a bunch of cool gear and some nice new rules, but there really aren't any good spells(and one that need to be ban hammered to lowest levels of underworld) and the value of the 2 adept powers and 3 technomancer echoes is highly depatable.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Ancient History

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« Reply #53 on: <12-28-10/2043:04> »
Hello, everyone.  My name is Mike Wich.  I am one of the authors for War! and just wanted to step in here and respond to The Laughing Man, and maybe clarify the reasons for the war.  A lot of the explanation for this war is contained in the section of "Bogota History," which I wrote (along with Bogota Culture, the vast majority of Bogota Neighborhoods and half of the Mercenary section).
Hello Mike.

Quote
[Spoilers] Aztlan was intentionally seeding the forest with Diablos, to prevent Amazonia from invading and conquering Bogota. Bogota is a prize for them, and no nation really wants to lose territory and resources to anyone, especially to a hated enemy.  And there was a real (or perceived) threat of that happening during and after the Year of the Comet, when their military forces were spread so thin.  Amazonia despised having their forest altered so radically, and so they fiercely retaliated, and violence rained down on the streets of Bogota. There was a tit-for-tat response going on in that regard between 2062 and 2073.  The way the violence was being waged, all out war was all but inevitable.  The two attempted diplomacy, and an agreement was even signed, but Amazonia really failed to live up to its side of the bargin in failing to effectively police its own guerrilla cells.  I attempted to try and show that both sides were really guility of the hostilities that were happening down there, and that both sides had blood on their hands.  I find that it is better drama when both sides contribute to the start of a war.  Many people think Aztlan is the bad guy in this, where it should be understood that both contributed to the current climate, with Aztlan being a little bit more responsible for it by intentionally misleading Amazonia into attacking their lab and giving them a valid reason for a full-out war.  Strategically speaking, it is also in Aztlan's best interests to find a way of stopping this violence.  All this violence is costing them *A LOT* of nuyen.  And diplomacy wasn't working. And so, when the diplomats fail.... [/Spoilers]
I've been arguing about the trees thing for a long time, so let me just restate my opinion: the entire trees plot is stupid and nonsensical. Amazon hates people and loves trees. Aztlan has been smuggling shit into and out of Amazonia and cutting trees down, that's a large part of the reason (Great Dragons aside) the nations hate each other. Aztlan planting man-eating trees on its borders would be a good thing as far as Amazonia is concerned. Planting man-eating trees on the border is something Amazonia would do themselves to keep the Azzies out. These trees - only discovered in 2062 - take years to grow. Because they're trees. Even if Aztlan invaded Amazonia and stole hundreds of dangerous magical saplings, the trees they planted would only be about 13 years old. There's not even any jungle around Bogota, the city's in the fucking mountains.

And there's no reason for Amazonia to give a fig about Bogota except for the fact that Aztlan is there. It's pisshole #1 in Old Colombia. That's it. Amazonia doesn't need it; the barrios of Metropole have a higher population than all of old Colombia put together.

I realize this is just you trying to shed some light Mike, and I know the plot didn't originate with you...but it's a bad plot. Really bad. Ridiculously silly. There have been wars started over football games and dogs that were less retarded than the trees plot. If you want to defend your writing, fine. Don't defend the plot.

Otakusensei

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« Reply #54 on: <12-29-10/0101:12> »
Yeah, the trees plot never made that much sense.  Even if it was the straw that broke the camel's back, you can only blame so much nonsense in the channel on the fog of war.

Time was when the plot event would be announced, then we'd get a write up from Fastjack or (back in the day) Capt. Chaos.  They'd introduce you to a situational expert, explain their reason for speaking and in broad strokes what was on the line as it applies to Shadowrunners.  Then our guide would lay out the specifics, usually starting with a bit of propaganda lifted from the official source, before they shredded into it and told you the delicious truth you knew was there.

When you got done you knew the blow by blow.  You knew the big capping events that went back for years and the players that maneuvered things into place.  From a gaming perspective you could take it or leave it for your game; but as the next plot book was written, or the next, you knew the bulk of the understanding as those who make it their business to know understand it.  And you expected that the next book would build on that understanding (and the details that were obfuscated) to frame the next event or take the metaplot to the next level.

I'm not getting that for War!, though.  It's sort of like the Bogota source book with some tacked on details about why there is a war going on.  Then some 40 pages of Fields of Fire sounding stuff and about 30 pages of crunch.  But it sounds like the writers aren't getting into that much setting detail about the war, and I hope that's not the case.  I hope they have for whatever reason decided not to share the particulars for now.  But when I look at the quality of the proofing and the world building I question that hope.  It is pretty sloppy when they don't even include a map.  I mean, I hope there was a map provided in the research notes that were collected by the staff.  Otherwise how can you expect internal consistency from anything they've written?  We might as well write down the proceedings of a few weeks table games and call it world building.

Bitching about a map in a book called War! can sound like getting a new car and bitching about a missing drink holder.  Who cares?  But this is a book less about war than about a war.  And I expect that the products being put out by CGL will be held to highest standards of quality, or else they will be held from publishing until they are ready to be sold.  That means the writers planned out the proceedings of a war at some point, and have used a map to do so.  At least, it should.  You need to know more than "Aztlan up and that way, Amazonia down and that way, Bogota in the middle".  That means that the staff think this book is ready to go without a map or details of the specific units fighting on both sides.

As a GM I can find a map, and plan out some maneuvers around the area.  I can write up some unit details and come up with some paracritters and milspec blood magic to throw at each other while my players try to work the shadows between the fox holes.  But I'm not being paid to write a book called War!.  And I'm expected instead to pay for one that doesn't even bother to include a map; but tells me everything I need to know about Bogota, how much damage a nuke does and suggests it might be fun to go shoot the ghosts of Jewish concentrations camp victims so I can plunder Auschwitz.
« Last Edit: <12-29-10/0103:04> by Otakusensei »

MikeW

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« Reply #55 on: <12-29-10/0532:56> »
I don't post a lot.  And I'm deliberately trying to stay as much out of the fruckus about War as possible.  As I writer, I'm just going to say that I know that I did my best with my writing. I put things in there I thought were awesome ideas, and things that I thought I would enjoy putting into my home game.  I know not everyone will have campaigns in this particular region, and I know not everyone will like the plotlines that I developed.  But I want to assure everyone that I do love Shadowrun, I have played Shadowrun for over eight years now, and am a freelancer because I love the line.  Some people may choose not to believe that, but that is their choice.  In the end, I acknowledge there were a lot of missed opportunities with War, but that when the print product of War! comes out, I will be proud to add it to the rest of my books, and will be proud to say I contributed to it.       

What I'm going to focus on for the next project (because I'm going to keep on writing) is to be more attentive to grammar, be more methodical in putting out the best writing that I can, and will be committed to help Catalyst put out the best possible product that it can. I have heard from the fans that grammar and the typos are a problem, and I will do what I can to make sure that they don't happen in my sections the next time around.   

And Bobby, there's not point in me trying to argue with you. You've made up your mind on everything, and nothing I can ever say will change that.  And I will not get pulled into having a public war of words with you.  I don't need that.  So I'm just going to acknowledge that I've read people's comments here, I'll do my best to improve things for next time, and we'll go from there.             
Mike Wich, SR Freelancer
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #56 on: <12-29-10/0538:46> »
in the end it shows that different people play SR for different reasons, and trying to please them all with every book will be like pushing water up hill using only ones hands...
Want to see my flash new jacket?

Dread Moores

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« Reply #57 on: <12-29-10/0756:06> »
I don't have to like the plotline in War. I'm not really worried if I do or not, as I won't really being using Bogota. As a personal taste thing, I would have probably been a little happier to have Bogota take up less space, and see some more information on additional hotspots around the globe. The issue that just really bugged me as a fan was the issues with editing and proofing. Lack of an introduction and the way the main point of your book isn't mentioned until several pages in the Bogota section...that looked really amateurish. Address that issue and other similar editing issues found in WAR!, clean that up for future books (and yeah, along with the grammar), and then I'll worry more about whether I want to complain about the storyline or not. :)

ssjevot

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« Reply #58 on: <12-29-10/1345:52> »
I don't understand how anyone could think the Freelancers aren't fans.  Why would you write for a product you care nothing about, is the money really that good?  I think like others have said the problem lies in the editing and proofreading, and other people are just taking this opportunity to make baseless attacks against the freelancers themselves.  I have no doubt CGL can get back to producing products of the quality we've become accustomed to, and we should use our criticism to productively address the issues rather than making assumptions about the freelancers.

Ancient History

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« Reply #59 on: <12-29-10/1436:28> »
I don't post a lot.  And I'm deliberately trying to stay as much out of the fruckus about War as possible.  As I writer, I'm just going to say that I know that I did my best with my writing.
Not for nothing Mike, but I don't care. Really, I haven't said anything good or bad about your writing. It's a non-issue with me. No one even brought it up before you did. This is not about your writing. It's about the stupid bloody plot which I know you did not create. That's all I'm bitching about, man.

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And Bobby, there's not point in me trying to argue with you. You've made up your mind on everything, and nothing I can ever say will change that.  And I will not get pulled into having a public war of words with you.  I don't need that.  So I'm just going to acknowledge that I've read people's comments here, I'll do my best to improve things for next time, and we'll go from there.             
Really, dude, I'm not here to argue with you. I just want to be clear how much I hate this particular storyline. Nothing to do with you.

Quote from: ssjevot
Why would you write for a product you care nothing about, is the money really that good?
No, the money is shit. Really. 3-3.5 cents a word is average. Devs might get 4.5-6 cents a word. However, if you're freelancing professionally, like David Hill and Filamena Young, and it's what you do for a living, then you take all the work you can handle that comes your way. You get enough wordcount, you get enough rates, it adds up. I'm not saying they're not fans or don't care, because I don't know them that well, but yes there are freelancers that write for products they care nothing about.