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Spy Games errata discussion

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Nath

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« on: <05-28-11/1022:07> »
page 40
"The ones that did not ;eave on those planes were given a one-time offer to take a flight back to Aztlan."
It should probably read "leave".

page 63
There maybe should be a Salish-Shidhe subtitle before the sentence "What really started the international intrigue ball rolling was a small press conference held by the Salish-Shidhe Council." since the three following paragraphs are about the Salish-Shidhe position on Denver.

page 70
"Earlier this year, [Roger Soaring-Owl] resigned his position in Knight Errant without explanation, taking a job as a military consultant in his homeland, the Sioux Nation."
Corporate Guide, page 70, reads "Earlier this year, Roger Soaring-Owl, Knight’s trusted advisor and the longtime executive vice-president of Knight Errant, resigned from his duties to take a high-paying military consultant position with the Sioux Nation."
Corporate Guide was set by all known accounts somewhere in 2072 (around May, thought this is not clearly stated anywhere). Spy Games being set in May, 2073, Soaring-Owl resignation was last year.

page 81
"With the approval of the Lodge Master and the Guardian, he has been striking back at Vladimir Kozolov, hoping to kick the Vory out of the CAS and give them some breathing room."
I know no Vladimir Kozolov. My take is, it should be Vladimir Kirillov, an actual boss of the Denver Vory described on page 82, or there should be a Santino Mariella around as well.

page 87
"November of 2064 was hard on everyone thanks to Crash 2.0.The worm came through the backdoor to the Morgue and burned everything in its wake. Bash, Crystal, Tid, and several others died initially in the combat"
"• Bash, Admin 2032-2065"
"• Shiva, Master System Admin 2024-2065"
"• Crystal, Dragon’s Lair Admin 2053-2065"
The date on the pedestals should be 2064.

page 98
"Since then, the dragon’s determination to bring down HKB has reached new heights. His agents, the Knights of Rage, are hiring local hackers left, right, and center to dig up new dirt on HKB."
No dragon has not been mentioned in the chapter at that point, so it's kinda off to say "the dragon" without specifying which one. Only the second sentence and the following post (maybe intended to be first originally) allowed me to say this must be Celedyr he's talking about, and not Lofwyr or Rhonabwy.

page 106
"Webb hadn’t missed that lesson at the farm so much as ignored it."
CIA training facility at Camp Peary is "The Farm" and should be capitalized.

page 135
"this thing you ask for once belonged to Dunkehlzahn"
It should read Dunkelzahn.

page 142
"When security is broadcasting that they are looking for a blond in a white Zoë dress, it’s time to freshen up!"
"I tend to go with high-end makeup, like Zoë’s Amber House line."
The French first name and the SR fashion house name is "Zoé" with an acute accent (see Arsenal, page 47, and several older books).

page 144
Clean Car Coating is not listed with price and availability.

page 146
Small Explosive Device damage value is 10P(f) in the text and 5P in the list.
Mini Flamethrower damage value is 4P in the text and 8P in the list

page 165
"Subject: Fort Brigg Incident"
It could be Fort Bragg, as there is no Fort Brigg IRL.

page 166
"my sources say that the Palantir, the Lone Star commlink clause, and Degauss have all been designed by the Order of Skull and Crossbones."
It should be "the Order of Skull and Bones" as elsewhere in the text.
« Last Edit: <05-28-11/1332:03> by Nath »

Crimsondude

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« Reply #1 on: <05-28-11/1238:20> »
IIRC, it's supposed to be Brigg. I do recall having that discussion last year.

As much as I hate to be the one to point it out, there are some errors and omissions in the Intelligence Agencies list. There was a flurry of last-minute changes and things got missed.

  • The proper accent mark placement for DGSE is: Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure
  • UCAS is missing IRS Enforcement Division because I totally forgot until just after the book was published. The IRS being a member of the IC is canon. I am uncomfortable adding scope and methods without Jason's approval. However, I have a strong feeling that the IRS may show up in a future book.
  • Esprit SDEI should be: Esprit Service de Documentation d'Esprit International
  • As a FYI, Infolio is owned by Index-AXA. Not exactly errata, but it may be useful to know.
« Last Edit: <09-16-11/0518:45> by James Meiers »

kirk

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« Reply #2 on: <11-20-11/0029:21> »
Page 161, Safejump. Tab is offset so availability (6) is under price, and price (120¥) is in a column of its own. Oh, and there's no player information for it anywhere I can find.

Chaemera

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« Reply #3 on: <11-29-11/0733:45> »
page 106
"Webb hadn’t missed that lesson at the farm so much as ignored it."
CIA training facility at Camp Peary is "The Farm" and should be capitalized.

And Camp Peary is located in Williamsburg, Virginia, CAS. For that matter, Langley (officially the SR HQ for the CIA) is also in Virginia, CAS. So I guess they can ignore capitalization if they're ignoring international borders.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #4 on: <11-29-11/0842:18> »
Langley is in Fairfax County, which has been a part the Federal District of Columbia since 2024, and places it squarely within the UCAS. Even if it wasn't in FDC, it'd still be in the state of North Virginia, which is all of the Virginia counties north of the Rappahannock River.

I'm sorry that the maps aren't that detailed, but this has been canon for over 21 years IRL, and I wish that people would stop propagating the false idea that the Potomac River divides the UCAS and CAS when it never has.


Camp Peary doesn't even get name-checked in Spy Games. Every instance of "the farm" in the book is used as a generic reference to training facilities/programs, e.g. "Off to the Farm" in the Tradecraft chapter. It is not tied to any specific location. Just offhand, the only such facility that gets name-checked is the SIS training area at Harvey Point in North Carolina.


If you're interested in the geography of the DeeCee Sprawl, may I suggest you pick up Conspiracy Theories? It includes the first detailed writeup of the sprawl since 1990.
« Last Edit: <11-29-11/0907:43> by James Meiers »

Chaemera

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« Reply #5 on: <11-29-11/0901:58> »
I'm sorry that the maps aren't that detailed, but this has been canon for over 21 years IRL, and I wish that people would stop propagating the false idea that the Potomac River divides the UCAS and CAS when it never has.

While I don't have any pre-4th ed books to look at, it's worth noting that it's not a detailing of maps at issue. The detail of the UCAS map and CAS map (6WA, pgs 174 and 194, respectively) clearly shows (when compared to Google maps) the same Virginia-Maryland border that exists today.

The secession of multiple Virginia counties to the Federal District is also not mentioned in the timeline in 6WA or SR4A. The only mention I can find in a current sourcebook of what you're talking about is a single sentence in 6WA in the section of UCAS. So, I'll give you that one, even if that means that every map published by Catalyst is not under-detailed, but flat wrong.

Camp Peary doesn't even get name-checked in Spy Games.. Every instance of "the farm" in the book is used as a generic reference to training facilities/programs, and not to any specific location.

Fair enough, after all, you don't capitalize the name "the farm". However, if you're going to use a real-world, specific location as a generic concept, you better clarify that in the book. It's useless, confusing, and conflicting to reference something many people actually are familiar with when you don't actually mean what you're referencing.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #6 on: <11-29-11/0910:21> »
I will direct your attention to Conspiracy Theories, which has a whole section on DeeCee, and does briefly cover North Virginia. The only instance of the Rappahannock River ever being shown as the border in any published map is in the novel Just Compensation, since the novel takes place in DeeCee and involved North Virginia political intrigue. The only reason for that is because that map is only of that specific part of the mid-Atlantic region. North Virginia isn't even distinguishable in the map of North America on the preceding page of the novel.


I would think it's pretty clear what was intended in referring to "the farm" in that section of the Tradecraft chapter about espionage training in general. So I am not sweating it.
« Last Edit: <11-29-11/0917:47> by James Meiers »

Chaemera

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« Reply #7 on: <11-29-11/0934:14> »
I will direct your attention to Conspiracy Theories, which has a whole section on DeeCee, and does briefly cover North Virginia.

Fair enough, I've not yet read Conspiracy Theories as it hasn't been released in print yet (PDF only). So, if you'd like to send me a copy, I'll happily concede that point.

The only instance of the Rappahannock River ever being shown as the border in any published map is in the novel Just Compensation, since the novel takes place in DeeCee and involved North Virginia political intrigue. The only reason for that is because that map is only of that specific part of the mid-Atlantic region. North Virginia isn't even distinguishable in the map of North America on the preceding page of the novel.

I direct you again to the previously mentioned 6th World Almanac maps (and the massive map that was included in the back of this book). If you look at it with the naked eye, you can clearly see the CAS/UCAS border running right up the Potomac. In point of fact, the border line (even if you can't pick out the river yourself, you can see the yellow line) perfectly matches the present border between Maryland and Virginia. So no, I don't think it's that hard to figure out that current maps in currently published and available books show the real-world border as the CAS-UCAS border.

I would think it's pretty clear what was intended in referring to "the farm" in that section of the Tradecraft chapter about espionage training in general. So I am not sweating it.

The fact that more than one person (the OP and myself, at a minimum) disagrees seems to suggest that it's not viewed by the customer as a reference to "training in general". Especially given that the singular real-world connection anyone could make is to a specific location. Oh, and the whole definition of the word "the". "The" is used to designate a specific, singular, entity. If you're talking about general, you wanted "a", he was trained on "a farm", not "the farm".
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #8 on: <11-29-11/1031:58> »
If the North Virginia question isn't showing in the Almanac (and I don't have time to research it at the moment), then someone fumbled. And the mapping issue regarding North Virginia has been an issue since at least 1990, if not back to the very beginning of the game.

That said, James is right: Those counties have been part of DeeCee since the game's beginning.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #9 on: <11-29-11/1117:38> »
Of course I'm right. I'm always right.

I'm sorry the map doesn't show it, but the map is not the territory (to quote Ronin).

Chaemera

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« Reply #10 on: <11-29-11/1145:10> »
And while I've agreed that the text in 4th edition states (in one place, and one place only) that some of Virginia is part of the UCAS, it's not the best strategy to rely on the crutch of "previous versions of the game said it's part of UCAS".

If you have a setting that uses the real world as a baseline, then modifies it, you had best explain that in the current version of your game. If I have to hunt down a single line in the 6WA to find out that northern VA is not part of VA, rather than seeing it in timelines (it's the breakup of a state, it's kind of important), stories, and other aspects of the core rulebook (or setting books), then you're doing it wrong.

You alienate new customers every time the response to something is "if you've played the game since first edition you'd already know..." If it's relevant, and part of the world, it should be in a current source book, not an out-of-print source book from a previous edition. And, since I know the next words are going to be "Conspiracy Theories", it needs to be a sourcebook that's been published prior to the point where people are getting confused. This isn't the first time someone's point about the world has been shut down by the excuse of "you should be familiar with previous editions".
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FastJack

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« Reply #11 on: <11-29-11/1237:51> »
And while I've agreed that the text in 4th edition states (in one place, and one place only) that some of Virginia is part of the UCAS, it's not the best strategy to rely on the crutch of "previous versions of the game said it's part of UCAS".
No offense, Chaemera, but where else would it be mentioned? It states that North Virginia is part of the UCAS in the Sixth World Almanac and Conspiracy Theories for 4th Edtion. These are the only two books to cover the region that should mention it, so I'm not sure where else it should appear. The Core books just give a high level summary of the world, without any detail on ANY nation, really. The 6WA was written to give that detail.

Now, the only problem I have with the 6WA is that it only mentions the American states in the union and not the Canadian States (and that Missouri AND North Missouri are both listed). But that's just errata.

Chaemera

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« Reply #12 on: <11-29-11/1418:33> »
Where else could it be mentioned?
1- The timeline in the 6WA.
2- The timeline in the Core rulebook
3- The description of UCAS and CAS in the Core rulebook. They had time to mention that Miami is part of the Caribbean League in this exact same section (page 28 of SR4A). Instead, this section says that Virginia seceded, not 66% of Virginia.

And again Conspiracy Theories comes up in a conversation about geography based on what's said in Spy Games. I've already explained why that's a pretty lousy excuse not to have covered it in the same book that mentions Miami is part of the Caribbean League.

EDIT

If the North Virginia question isn't showing in the Almanac (and I don't have time to research it at the moment), then someone fumbled. And the mapping issue regarding North Virginia has been an issue since at least 1990, if not back to the very beginning of the game.

It's not just not showing up on the maps in the Almanac, it's also not showing up in SR4A and SR4 (Catalyst's printing). In other words, I can't find a map in the entirety of 4th Edition that shows Virginia having split up. The only thing currently out in print for the entire game that tells anyone not familiar with previous editions of Shadowrun is a single line in 6WA describing DeeCee that doesn't even mention which Virginian counties.
« Last Edit: <11-29-11/1436:03> by Chaemera »
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FastJack

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« Reply #13 on: <11-29-11/1516:46> »
Where else could it be mentioned?
1- The timeline in the 6WA.
2- The timeline in the Core rulebook
3- The description of UCAS and CAS in the Core rulebook. They had time to mention that Miami is part of the Caribbean League in this exact same section (page 28 of SR4A). Instead, this section says that Virginia seceded, not 66% of Virginia.

And again Conspiracy Theories comes up in a conversation about geography based on what's said in Spy Games. I've already explained why that's a pretty lousy excuse not to have covered it in the same book that mentions Miami is part of the Caribbean League.

EDIT

If the North Virginia question isn't showing in the Almanac (and I don't have time to research it at the moment), then someone fumbled. And the mapping issue regarding North Virginia has been an issue since at least 1990, if not back to the very beginning of the game.

It's not just not showing up on the maps in the Almanac, it's also not showing up in SR4A and SR4 (Catalyst's printing). In other words, I can't find a map in the entirety of 4th Edition that shows Virginia having split up. The only thing currently out in print for the entire game that tells anyone not familiar with previous editions of Shadowrun is a single line in 6WA describing DeeCee that doesn't even mention which Virginian counties.
1 & 2) Timelines are intended to be summaries of major events. Not details on what the new borders of a nation are. If you look in any modern history books, do the timelines detail how much the Soviet/Russian borders change over the last 50 years? Or do they simply say that the Soviet Union was created December 29, 1922 and leave the major details elsewhere? (Timeline of Russian History

And honestly, you're being pretty generous with North Virginia being 33% of Virginia. At most, I'd give NV Shenandoah, Frederick, Winchester, Warren, Clarke, Page, Madison, Rapphannock, Prince William, Loudoun, Culpeper, Fauquier, Manassas, Manassas Park, Fredericksburg, Fairfax, Falis Church, Alexandria, Stafford, King George, Westmoreland, Northumberland, Richmond, Lancaster, Northampton, and Accomack counties. MAYBE a quarter of the current state, and that's being generous.

...

I'm sorry, what was I talking about? Ah yes, from Conspiracy Theories, we know that Fredericksburg is the capital of North Virginia, which is right along the Rappahannock river (the one that creates the inlet into the Chesapeake Bay, below the inlet that separates NV from Maryland) and that this is prime smuggling territory between the borders of the UCAS and CAS. So I figure the line follows the river and county lines from there to the western edge of the state.

Granted, yes, the maps could be a bit more detailed in their depictions, but they also create the maps with the current borders overlayed so that we can get a better idea of where everything is. To have both the overlay and new state/region borders may be a bit too much.

Of course, in the end, I'd like to see updated maps as well, and drop the overlays of current borders.

Critias

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« Reply #14 on: <11-29-11/1612:43> »
Guys, I don't think more back and forth on this is gonna clarify anything or change anyone's mind.  Text says part of Virginia broke off, maps don't.  Done.  When in doubt (in the past, at least, and in most instances I can think of), it's always been the general rule that images are less "canon" than text -- so in this case, it's clear that DC is clearly still in UCAS hands, so is a chunk of Northern Virginia, etc, etc.

Bickering ain't gonna change it or clarify anything, though, because the fact remains our maps are wrong.  What's done is done.  We can't go back and change what's already been put in sourcebooks (especially ones from years ago).  Let's just file it away and try to remember it, next time a sourcebook crops up that might have a map of the region in it.