Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: redTroll on <09-05-11/0617:09>

Title: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: redTroll on <09-05-11/0617:09>
Not sure if it is errata but Bone lacing (cyberware) is forbidden while bone augmentation (bioware) isn't even restricted. Is there a reason for this, as any clarification would help stop the whining in our games
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: UmaroVI on <09-05-11/0643:06>
There's no good reason for it. Nothing breaks if you houserule it, but there isn't errata, either.

Basically, what happened is that it's a consequence of design by committee, which leads to inconsistencies like this. Whoever assigned Bone Lacing to be F figured that since it made your melee attacks do P damage, it should be forbidden, just like cyberspurs or whatever else. But Bone Density Augmentation and Cyberlimbs get you P-damage regular melee anyways, and it's not like actual melee weapons are all F.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: redTroll on <09-05-11/0907:21>
Yeah seems well off. I can get a licence (fake obviously) for the gun in my mouth but God forbid i want to augment my body with something that allows me to punch people hard. Cheers for the info.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Nath on <09-05-11/1116:59>
Somebody asked the same question on a French forum a few month ago. Considering Bone Density firt appeared the Universal Omnitech catalog featuring in Shadowtech, Third edition allowed getting a license for bone lacing, and bone density did not exist then, the best answer I could come up with was this:
Quote
In 2068, Universal Omnitech is offering its new bone density bioware augmentation treatment to everyone, price starting at 20,000¥. This new technology is far more efficient and less invasive than Universal Omnitech old Bone Lacing™ reinforcement. This is why from now and until December 31, 2069, Universal Omnitech is offering a 20% discount of bone density augmentation to all the customer who previously chose Bone Lacing™. Bone Lacing™ will no longer be available at Universal Omnitech or its licensees.

Corporation or surgeons who would propose Bone Lacing™ will be sued by Universal Omnitech for patent infringement. Following the "Universal Omnitech versus Kokura Biotechnologies" decision, a permanent warrant from the Corporate court allows immediate seizing what would be infringing on Universal Omnitech intellectual property.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: ARC on <09-25-11/0629:16>
Somebody asked the same question on a French forum a few month ago. Considering Bone Density firt appeared the Universal Omnitech catalog featuring in Shadowtech, Third edition allowed getting a license for bone lacing, and bone density did not exist then, the best answer I could come up with was this:
Quote
In 2068, Universal Omnitech is offering its new bone density bioware augmentation treatment to everyone, price starting at 20,000¥. This new technology is far more efficient and less invasive than Universal Omnitech old Bone Lacing™ reinforcement. This is why from now and until December 31, 2069, Universal Omnitech is offering a 20% discount of bone density augmentation to all the customer who previously chose Bone Lacing™. Bone Lacing™ will no longer be available at Universal Omnitech or its licensees.

Corporation or surgeons who would propose Bone Lacing™ will be sued by Universal Omnitech for patent infringement. Following the "Universal Omnitech versus Kokura Biotechnologies" decision, a permanent warrant from the Corporate court allows immediate seizing what would be infringing on Universal Omnitech intellectual property.

That is quite interesting.  I didn't know that was why Bone Lacing was illegal.  it makes sense to me that is why it would be that way.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Phylos Fett on <09-25-11/0658:00>
There's no good reason for it. Nothing breaks if you houserule it, but there isn't errata, either.

Basically, what happened is that it's a consequence of design by committee, which leads to inconsistencies like this. Whoever assigned Bone Lacing to be F figured that since it made your melee attacks do P damage, it should be forbidden, just like cyberspurs or whatever else. But Bone Density Augmentation and Cyberlimbs get you P-damage regular melee anyways, and it's not like actual melee weapons are all F.

Nothing against the writers, line developers, and so forth, but I really hope that when SR5 rolls around, issues like this get addressed...
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: kirk on <09-25-11/1329:32>
There's no good reason for it. Nothing breaks if you houserule it, but there isn't errata, either.

Basically, what happened is that it's a consequence of design by committee, which leads to inconsistencies like this. Whoever assigned Bone Lacing to be F figured that since it made your melee attacks do P damage, it should be forbidden, just like cyberspurs or whatever else. But Bone Density Augmentation and Cyberlimbs get you P-damage regular melee anyways, and it's not like actual melee weapons are all F.

Nothing against the writers, line developers, and so forth, but I really hope that when SR5 rolls around, issues like this get addressed...
It won't. Oh, some might, but many will remain unanswered. Plus you'll get the inevitable typos and misplacements of text, not to mention the additional last-minute "Hey, this'd be neat" ideas (last minute being relative, just not all the ramifications get considered). Oh, and don't forget where they decide rules that you didn't think needed changed, do.

It's the nature of the beast. Heck, it happens in encyclopedias and severely edited professional journals everywhere, what makes you think an operation working close to the bone is going to do better?
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Trench on <10-02-11/2103:32>
Bone lacing is much cheaper.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: ARC on <10-02-11/2353:15>
Bone lacing is much cheaper.

Yeah, the Bone Lacing is cheaper, but Bone Augmentation's Essence Cost is a lot cheaper.  And isn't that just as important?
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Phylos Fett on <10-03-11/0500:17>
Bone lacing is much cheaper.

Yeah, the Bone Lacing is cheaper, but Bone Augmentation's Essence Cost is a lot cheaper.  And isn't that just as important?

Exactly - money can always be acquired - there is a finite amount of Essence.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: ARC on <10-03-11/1525:11>
Bone lacing is much cheaper.

Yeah, the Bone Lacing is cheaper, but Bone Augmentation's Essence Cost is a lot cheaper.  And isn't that just as important?

Exactly - money can always be acquired - there is a finite amount of Essence.

That was my point exactly.  But bone lacing also gives the imitation of a certain mutated character, just give them a couple of other modifications and it's slice and dice time, or Fastball special.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Phylos Fett on <10-03-11/1557:38>
Bone lacing is much cheaper.

Yeah, the Bone Lacing is cheaper, but Bone Augmentation's Essence Cost is a lot cheaper.  And isn't that just as important?

Exactly - money can always be acquired - there is a finite amount of Essence.

That was my point exactly.  But bone lacing also gives the imitation of a certain mutated character, just give them a couple of other modifications and it's slice and dice time, or Fastball special.

I didn't see the listing for Adamantium Bone Lacing - is that in War! ;)
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: ARC on <10-03-11/1812:41>
Bone lacing is much cheaper.

Yeah, the Bone Lacing is cheaper, but Bone Augmentation's Essence Cost is a lot cheaper.  And isn't that just as important?

Exactly - money can always be acquired - there is a finite amount of Essence.

That was my point exactly.  But bone lacing also gives the imitation of a certain mutated character, just give them a couple of other modifications and it's slice and dice time, or Fastball special.

I didn't see the listing for Adamantium Bone Lacing - is that in War! ;)

No, but titanium is close enough.

Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Trench on <12-09-11/0525:20>
Many implants are trumped by more costly implants.

These items are still useful because  most npcs and starting characters dont have unlimited funds.

From a fluff perspective it would seem that law enforcement doesnt want the poor to be armed.  Also, as a bone strengthening process rather than a physical implant, Bone Density might be more difficult to legislate against.

Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <12-09-11/1135:24>
It's also harder to spot and therefore police.  Legal people take the easy road, too.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: ARC on <12-11-11/0637:21>
Sometimes, it isn't about either.  As mentioned before, the process for Lacing Bone has ceased by the people that have the liscencing for it.  they now do the Bone Augmentation.  so until someone can get a hold of that liscence, Bone Lacing is illegal.  Now if an enterprising Street Dock can hire some runners and find a why to get the liscensing... taa-daa
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Nath on <12-16-11/0434:50>
As mentioned before, the process for Lacing Bone has ceased by the people that have the liscencing for it.
Note that was pure invention from my part. It is not an official explanation.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: ARC on <12-18-11/0607:26>
As mentioned before, the process for Lacing Bone has ceased by the people that have the liscencing for it.
Note that was pure invention from my part. It is not an official explanation.

Wow, then yeah there is no real reason.  hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Fenris on <02-10-12/2320:04>
Way late to the party on this one, but this always drove me nuts too. I do like that reasoning, though.

What I personally did was basically give it the same Availability as Bone Density all across the board if you want to get it in game. Yeah, it increased the lesser and decreased the greater but it works pretty nicely. What I did was make it Restricted instead, solely because it added armor. Basically, since some body armor is ideally licensed, I decided making it able to be licensed was a fair trade for the extra armor bonus you get from it. Prices are otherwise the same.

So people can choose between A. Less invasive, more expensive, but no armor bonus but essentially non detectable, or B. Cheaper, more invasive, detectable a bit easier, but you get a little natural armor bonus to carry around with you, but you need to scrounge a license for it.

But yeah, this is one that me and my buddies have discussed awhile, as it ALWAYS stuck out as being a little off.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Sichr on <02-11-12/0606:02>
Issue is, that since Bone density is Bioware, it is hardly detectable by scanners, so it has no significance to restrict it...it will pass anywhere but the closest examinations...which happens mostly on the autopsy table and means no further complications for runner ;)
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: JustADude on <02-11-12/0822:43>
So people can choose between A. Less invasive, more expensive, but no armor bonus but essentially non detectable...

Emphasis, of course, is mine.

You are quite right that it doesn't add armor to your character, but it does give you bonus dice equal to its rating on your Damage Resistance test. Basically, it can't be reduced with Armor Penetration, but it also doesn't count towards the Phys/Stun threshold either.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: Fenris on <02-11-12/1135:07>
Oh, it does-bone lacing does the same, depending on the level. Honestly it was one of those handwaves trying to figure why one was one way and one was the other. It would probably just be easier to make them both fully legal. Or something like that.

Or, well, Bone Density gives bonus dice to resist damage. Bone Lacing gives both bonus dice and armor(if you get ceramic, aluminum, or titanium.) Plastic gives the DR but no armor(Maybe Plastic should be outright legal, thinking about it), and Kevlar gives no resistance but armor(maybe that can just have Armor like availability or whatnot plus a couple for being hidden.) I know Plastic, Kevlar and Ceramic are very hard to detect.

Bone Density is really good, though. I mean...honestly for us this would be more for the game itself. We nix any Availability limits at the start anyway. But what is decided is that Bone Lacing is, at the very least, able to be licensed.
Title: Re: Bone Lacing Vs Bone Augmentation
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-11-12/1143:26>
Oh, it does-bone lacing does the same, depending on the level. Honestly it was one of those handwaves trying to figure why one was one way and one was the other. It would probably just be easier to make them both fully legal. Or something like that.

Or, well, Bone Density gives bonus dice to resist damage. Bone Lacing gives both bonus dice and armor(if you get ceramic, aluminum, or titanium.) Plastic gives the DR but no armor(Maybe Plastic should be outright legal, thinking about it), and Kevlar gives no resistance but armor(maybe that can just have Armor like availability or whatnot plus a couple for being hidden.) I know Plastic, Kevlar and Ceramic are very hard to detect.

Bone Density is really good, though. I mean...honestly for us this would be more for the game itself. We nix any Availability limits at the start anyway. But what is decided is that Bone Lacing is, at the very least, able to be licensed.

That's yet another thing Bone Density has over Bone Lacing. If the GM isn't nixing Availability limits, you can't get Titanium Bone Lacing without Restricted Gear, whereas you can get Bone Density 4 without that quality.