Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: valavaern on <07-22-12/2134:53>
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After going through Arsenal and both Gun Heavens a couple of times, I felt like something was missing. This is also a bit of a thought experiment to see just what's possible using no powered technology. Here's what I came up with, in the presentation style of Gun Heaven:
(EDITS WILL BE BOLDED)
After completing the successful Sheriff smart revolver, the designers at Cavalier Arms proved that modern technology could allow a revolver to compete with any other smart weapon on the market. Still, some of them felt they had lost the 'spirit' of the Deputy, the model the company had made a name for itself with. To suit, they decided to create a 'counterpart' to the Sheriff; a heavy revolver that would be about supreme craftsmanship, rather than technological gadgetry. The end result was the Marshal.
Made from the highest grade alloys available, the Cavalier Arms Marshal is light weight, incredibly durable, and easy to disassemble and clean. While some manufacturers would have been satisfied simply having the gun chamber one of the largest rounds legally allowed in a handgun, the designers at Cavalier also designed a gas-vent system specifically to counter the wild kick of such a large round. The firing mechanism has also been crafted to perfection: it's stock cylinder is as big as the aftermarket mods for most other revolvers, and the purely mechanical firing action is so smooth, it can squeeze of rounds just as fast a modern smart semi-automatic. The only place the designers left room for improvement is in the grip; to compensate for this, Cavalier offers special after-market kits for molding grips that are personalized to the user, comparable in price to other such after-market kits.
Cavalier Arms Marshal (Heavy Pistol)
DAMAGE AP MODE RC AMMO AVAIL COST
8P -4 SA -2 8(cy) 8R 1500¥
Standard upgrades: Easy Breakdown (Manual), Firing Selection Change (small), Gas-Vent 2 System, High-powered Chambering, Increased Cylinder, Melee Hardening, Reduced Weight, Vintage
(note: this gun may note use caseless ammunition), but may mount a personalized grip, despite the 'Vintage' quality
So, comments from the peanut gallery?
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Seems incredibly powerful for a Heavy Pistol. 8P, -4 AP, for 1000 Y.
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Seems incredibly powerful for a Heavy Pistol. 8P, -4 AP, for 1000 Y.
Gah! forgot to add the 'High Caliber' mod in the listing. Fixing now!
High Caliber mod adds +2DV -2AP, but gives -2 recoil to everything, too (hence the gas-vent system)
As for the price, is based on the Sheriff from Gun Heaven 2, which has 8P, -4 AP, and smartlink for ~800¥
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Where's High Caliber? I don't see it in Arsenal.
So, at baseline it's still DV 6, AP -2, with SA (better than the Super Warhawk),- it's still better than every Heavy Pistol ever, at a reasonable cost.
If this weapon were in the book, I would never carry anything else unless I wanted it mounted with a silencer. That generally means it's overpowered.
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Probably means "High Power Chambering" out of War!. If so, and it's based off the Ruger, it would do 7P
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OK, that gives DV +2, AP -1, -2 dice due to recoil, and Avail. 20F.
Which, if based on the Ruger (the only pistol to do DV 6), would be DV 8, AP -3, SA - better than the Super Warhawk.
Plus, it's Avail 6R, whereas the AMMO it fires is 20F. So you can buy the gun, just not the bullets that it shoots.
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OK, that gives DV +2, AP -1, -2 dice due to recoil, and Avail. 20F.
Which, if based on the Ruger (the only pistol to do DV 6), would be DV 8, AP -3, SA - better than the Super Warhawk.
Plus, it's Avail 6R, whereas the AMMO it fires is 20F. So you can buy the gun, just not the bullets that it shoots.
I'll be bumping the avail up to 7-8R, to go with the Chambering mod.
I'm calling the 20F ammo a bad typo in need of errata; there's no way the ammo for a 7R mod would be 20F. Plus, the Cavalier Arms Sheriff from Gun Heaven 2 had the high powered chambering mod, with avail of 7R on the gun, and no mention of being unable to find ammo for it.
Again, the Sheriff, which this is based on, has High powered chambering, and does 8DV and -4AP. That's what I'm working of off, not the Ruger.
Hmmm, maybe adding the 'incompatability' or 'vintage' qualities from the Gun Heaven books would work to tone it down a bit?
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I didn't have access to Gun Heaven 2 - now that I do, I see that it's not AS extreme as I thought, but switching the mode from SS to SA is still a massive jump.
You've paid for it, clearly, but this is 9 modification slots, where the standard is 6 slots. It seems overpowered.
I would at least drop some of the additional mods, like Reduced Weight, Increased Cylinder and Gas Vent 2, remove the note that it can use caseless ammo (I think High-Powered rounds are normally caseless, at least so the text would suggest), and add the text "No further modification is possible," since it's already been so completely altered.
That way you get the SA, while preserving some of the limitations of the original, with the limitation that you can't add an internal smartlink or use regular, easily-available ammo.
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I didn't have access to Gun Heaven 2 - now that I do, I see that it's not AS extreme as I thought, but switching the mode from SS to SA is still a massive jump.
You've paid for it, clearly, but this is 9 modification slots, where the standard is 6 slots. It seems overpowered.
I would at least drop some of the additional mods, like Reduced Weight, Increased Cylinder and Gas Vent 2, remove the note that it can use caseless ammo (I think High-Powered rounds are normally caseless, at least so the text would suggest), and add the text "No further modification is possible," since it's already been so completely altered.
That way you get the SA, while preserving some of the limitations of the original, with the limitation that you can't add an internal smartlink or use regular, easily-available ammo.
It may have a lot of "mods", but they would be stock features for this firearm, and the modification slot limit in Arsenal doesn't include those that are a part of the stock weapon (and I believe everything he's creating is a stock weapon).
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Oh, I recognize that, but as it's presented this is a super-gun with virtually no limitations. That's not the type of weapon I'd allow in any game I ran. I think SR has done a pretty good job balancing limitations with benefits in most of its weapons - this weapon blows all existing heavy pistols out of the water.
How many standard mods do you see in your typical weapon? 2?
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HK 247 Arctic, it has 5 weapon mods stock. A shock pad, smartgun, sound suppressor, gas vent 2 and extended clip.
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Which is why I think 6 Standard Mods, with no further modification possible, is very reasonable - 9, with further opportunities for modification, seems less so to me.
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Which is why I think 6 Standard Mods, with no further modification possible, is very reasonable - 9, with further opportunities for modification, seems less so to me.
It's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I was merely giving an example of a firearm with more than two stock mods. I probably would remove the Personalized Grip and Gas Vent from this one myself, but mainly because the former would mean it has to be custom made for a particular buyer rather than stocked on the shelves and the latter isn't really necessary for a semi-automatic firearm (1 should be plenty in most circumstances since the High Power penalty is questionable as to whether RC will mitigate it). Even if it will, 2 points of RC isn't difficult on a pistol.
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It's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I was merely giving an example of a firearm with more than two stock mods. I probably would remove the Personalized Grip and Gas Vent from this one myself, but mainly because the former would mean it has to be custom made for a particular buyer rather than stocked on the shelves and the latter isn't really necessary for a semi-automatic firearm (1 should be plenty in most circumstances since the High Power penalty is questionable as to whether RC will mitigate it). Even if it will, 2 points of RC isn't difficult on a pistol.
The personalized grip I might remove from being stock, but mention that it's a very popular addition (maybe note from Cavalier that it's the only thing they COULDN'T make stock~). As for the gas-vent... since the -2 from HP rounds is specifically stated to come from 'excess recoil', I figured a purpose-built recoil system could negate it, and a gas-vent system seemed the best way to do it in keeping with the theme.
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I didn't have access to Gun Heaven 2 - now that I do, I see that it's not AS extreme as I thought, but switching the mode from SS to SA is still a massive jump.
I wouldn't consider what takes 300¥ and a few hours in a shop in the aftermarket to be a 'massive' jump... :/
You've paid for it, clearly, but this is 9 modification slots, where the standard is 6 slots. It seems overpowered.
I admit there's a lot going on with the gun, but the idea is that it's all passive; there's not a 'mod' on the gun that needs a power source.
I would at least drop some of the additional mods, like Reduced Weight, Increased Cylinder and Gas Vent 2, remove the note that it can use caseless ammo (I think High-Powered rounds are normally caseless, at least so the text would suggest), and add the text "No further modification is possible," since it's already been so completely altered.
The reduced weight and gas vent fit with the theme, so I'm keeping them, and the firing action is supposed to be purely mechanical, where caseless ammo takes an electronic spark to fire. Plus, it's another liability for a runner: no caseless ammo means there might be brass to police~
There's a quality for firearms from the Gun Heaven books called 'Vintage', which makes the weapon incompatible with all modern, off-the-shelf mods. It was actually my intention all along that the biggest drawback to this gun is that it doesn't come with a smartgun system, which is huge if you're using it as a primary weapon.
That way you get the SA, while preserving some of the limitations of the original, with the limitation that you can't add an internal smartlink or use regular, easily-available ammo.
as to the availability of the ammo... to me, 'High Powered Chambering' in a pistol means 'magnum', and even today, I'm pretty sure you can find a fair selection of magnum rounds in the same cabinet as all the other ammo at walmart~
As a sister-thread over in the rules section suggest, HP should be a modifier applied to the cost and availability of normal ammo types ((so, no HP EX-EX rounds at character start. :( ))
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I mentioned it because it's a point of contention as to whether it actually would mitigate it or not. There are those who believe it should because--like you said--it states recoil in the description, and there's those who always whine the word "overpowered" on everything.
Yeah, I figured it would be. As much of a bad idea as it can be sometimes, I'm going with the 'common sense' angle for right now~
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At the end of the day, it's your gun and you can do what you want with it, but I look at this and say I would never put this in a catalog for player purchase.
Why? It's perfect.
Every gun in the books is balanced with bonuses and limitations. Want that higher fire power? Sure, but it's SS, and low ammo. This gun is pure win, and has no limitations, since it can be further modified with either internal or external smartlinks. There is not a reason I can think of to not carry this weapon, assuming you houserule the High-Caliber ammo to be below 20F, other than I might want to use a silencer... and even then, I might look into getting a mage friend to cast Silence on me, because it's just that awesome.
Just pointing that out.
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Well, other than never ever being able to use other specialty ammo.
-k
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Apparently they're planning to Houserule in High-Powered ammo as having specialty ammo types as well, adding to cost and availability. Which, frankly, doesn't seem like a bad way to handle it, but removes that as a limitation, so long as you have the cash and connections.
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At the end of the day, it's your gun and you can do what you want with it, but I look at this and say I would never put this in a catalog for player purchase.
Why? It's perfect.
Every gun in the books is balanced with bonuses and limitations. Want that higher fire power? Sure, but it's SS, and low ammo. This gun is pure win, and has no limitations, since it can be further modified with either internal or external smartlinks. There is not a reason I can think of to not carry this weapon, assuming you houserule the High-Caliber ammo to be below 20F, other than I might want to use a silencer... and even then, I might look into getting a mage friend to cast Silence on me, because it's just that awesome.
Just pointing that out.
the 'vintage' quality has been added to the gun now, preventing it from ever being smart-link capable, which is the main drawback I was going for.
in truth, for about ~1100 nuyen, you could add a bigger cylinder, gas-vent 2, a personalized grip, and SA firing to the Sheriff, and have it all in a smart gun package to boot.