[The Big Peat]

Why don't you like the rounds? Stick-n-Shock seems to me to be exactly what Dunkelzahn was asking for in his will when he offered money to the person/corporation who created a non-lethal weapon useful at mid-range. THAT is why I like it from a setting standpoint.

Each to their own.

For me - doing the 'good' thing in SR is rarely easy. It's a nasty, messed-up place. Not killing people is the 'good' thing to do. Its also often the rational thing, sometimes an absolute imperative, although I digress slightly there.

Ergo, I don't want not killing people to be easier than killing people. It's not how I like to run games and its not what SR is about for me. Stick 'n stun, for me, falls on the side of too easy. Just switch ammo and use the SnS and people drop just as quick. If not quicker. Its quite likely its what was already in your magazine already, particularly if you like pistols and automatics, which at a guess most runners do. Certainly in my games. Alright, yes, if you're using an assault cannon its a fall in power, but that's hardly the average runner's average armanent. Or at least, not in my Shadowrun.

Although I have to say the idea of someone using an assault cannon for non-lethal takedowns tickles me pink. What on earth would such a runner use when he wants to actively take people down, twin-linked autocannons?

Aaanyway. Enough silliness. SnS doesn't make them sweat enough if they want to not kill, to put it shortly. Even with its chance of accidentally killing someone. There's plenty of options that will (be it in terms of reduced power, high cost, requiring an unusual skill, accuracy of a Civil Service statistics report and so on). So I, after consultation with my players, ruled that they would use them instead, and that SnS didn't exist.

That is just me and my take on the universe. Others are no doubt equally valid, possibly even more so; you make a good point that there are no doubt companies out there trying to develop like technologies with Big D's will (although they're not there yet). But they won't be reaching fruitiion in my SR anytime soon.

Hope that makes sense.

[Falconer]

My suggestion is the same as the others... house rule the damage code to simply be base weapon damage, half like normal.

Also the limit to shotguns can work reasonably well also.   Though I'd still give it 7P/half just as if it were slug ammo for shotguns.

It also shocks me (pun intended) the sheer number of people who don't put non-conductivity mods on armor which can and will completely negate SnS's ap-half benefits.

In my group we balanced stick and shock by changing the damage value to be equal to the weapon fired.

This get's mentioned a lot as a house rule.
I have never ever gotten this, as IMHo this truly makes S&S better then any other ammo for all weapons.

Don't think it's a huge hassle.   It's a much better solution than light pistols or hold-outs suddenly having their damage doubled or increased by 50% plus the ap-half.

The bigger problem is the secondary effects of electricity (which we just generally ignore at the tables I play at).

Also against a normal target (say 8 points of armor)... APDS in a SMG/Heavy pistol or AR is still far more deadly.  You still only have about 4 points of armor... but all that damge is going straight to physical.  The only ltime the AP-half becomes a huge deal is when you need to deal with possession twinks (possession is all kinds of broken), or people pulling ludicrous force spirits out of their asses.  Even Ex-Ex isn't that bad a contender.  (let alone some of the candy in War...  armor piercing flechettes please!!).

Against vehicles... only drones really need to worry about shutdown effects, larger vehicles pretty much can 4:1 the shutdown check.

Stunbolt/Stunball are far worse offenders that badly need a nerf.  Magicians in general do need whackings with the nerf stick.

When gun bunnies take drain for firing a gun... then we can talk.   Stunbolt is one of the few things mages can do within general power levels.   Generally if a street sam shoots you twice with gel... you're unconcious... if a mage hammers you with 1 or 2 good stunbolts you're unconcious.

Most people forget to slam mages with the same LOS and cover penalties that affect shooters.   If the target has good cover, the target is supposed to get +4 to his willpower check to resist because he is hard to see... if the mage is say using a mirror to cast around a corner... that's another -2 to his pool right there.  Your games are always played in well lit hallways... great... but a lot of the world is dark and gritty.  (to say nothing of people tossing useful things like smoke).

[Mirikon]

Falconer raises several great points. They all basically boil down to a point that was made in the thread about WAR! and MRSI. These rules and mechanics are not in a vacuum. They are all interwoven together, and what may seem unbalanced at first glance blends into the bigger picture when you take a step back. How many runners actually have more than about 8 armor, unless they are combat types, or trolls? For most characters, running SnS ammo will take them down just as quickly as ExEx, a bit slower than APDS. Except they'll be breathing instead of dying.

Where does SnS really shine? When dealing with the troll street sammy, or other similarly tough targets. It means that they actually have to worry about something other than magic, and aren't night invincible powerhouses.

[All4BigGuns]

Falconer raises several great points. They all basically boil down to a point that was made in the thread about WAR! and MRSI. These rules and mechanics are not in a vacuum. They are all interwoven together, and what may seem unbalanced at first glance blends into the bigger picture when you take a step back. How many runners actually have more than about 8 armor, unless they are combat types, or trolls? For most characters, running SnS ammo will take them down just as quickly as ExEx, a bit slower than APDS. Except they'll be breathing instead of dying.

Where does SnS really shine? When dealing with the troll street sammy, or other similarly tough targets. It means that they actually have to worry about something other than magic, and aren't night invincible powerhouses.

Emphasis mine.
This is the kicker. You have a broken troll street sam in the game? Give the corp security guys SnS and he's in the same boat as the rest of the team (and the rounds would make more sense for those security teams anyway since they'd more then likely rather capture than kill). If you don't like how quick stun damage takes people down, then increase the stun track by a two or three points (it needs it anyway, I've noticed stun damage is the way to go in a couple other RPGs too).

[Crash_00]

The average body 3 runner these days has either 9 or (assuming strength of 2) 11 points of Ballistic armor and 7 points of impact. That's assuming they aren't willing to take a hit on their rolls from encumbrance. That said, I think Stick-n-Shock would receive less criticism if their AP mod was -4, but from a design point making it -half like other electricity attacks was a good call in my opinion.

Stick-n-shock really isn't that overpowered, my biggest issue with it is entirely what Big Peat was getting at. Thematically, a dark and gritty world involves accidental bullet spraying, gushing chest wounds and significant amounts of brianmatter grey. Stick-n-Shock changes this theme to a more twelve guy twitching on the floor theme, which i don't really care for all too much. I use stick-n-shock, but I keep careful track of the damage they deal. It really isn't that hard at all to accidentally kill someone with stick-n-shock. Especially with skilled shooters.

[Trench]

Nonconduct 6 can make SnS rounds less effective than normal ammo.

Also there are  ways to remain conscious with a full stun track.

Electricity isnt technically a toxin but it is fair to assume that a target who soaks all the damage would likewise be exempt from further negative effect, as per toxin rules.

I will agree SnS is underpriced.

[CanRay]

On the flipside, it hurts like a slitch.

EDIT:  Been electrocuted four times.  Trust me, IT HURTS!!!

[Crash_00]

Electricity isnt technically a toxin but it is fair to assume that a target who soaks all the damage would likewise be exempt from further negative effect, as per toxin rules.

The electricity secondary effects only require a "successful attack", it doesn't require it to be damaging. As long as the attack hits it causes the target to have to roll Body+Willpower (3) with a modifier of half impact armor. Failure is incapacitated for at least 3 rounds. Even success imposes a -2.

EDIT:  Been electrocuted four times.  Trust me, IT HURTS!!!

And being tasered hurts even worse from my experience. I have no problem with the given rules because they feel realistic enough to me. I didn't have any lasting damage other than a little stiffness, but it floored me immediately and I pretty much drooled on myself until the police got there.

[Mäx]

Also against a normal target (say 8 points of armor)... APDS in a SMG/Heavy pistol or AR is still far more deadly.  You still only have about 4 points of armor... but all that damge is going straight to physical.

Except that doing stun damage is almost always better then doing physical damage.

[JustADude]

Yeah, too bad they're still low-lethality rounds rather than non-lethal, as he stipulated.  Still, it's a demonstration of where the technology is going.  And, as stated, RL versions of these exist for Shotguns today.

Restricting them to Shotguns or Rifles (Assault, Hunting and Sniper) might be a good middle ground.

I'd give it to anything with a base damage of 6 or more, really, regardless of class, since there are one or two pistols (Like the Super Warhawk, as the most common example) that, if they're anything like the real-world guns they're the equivalent of, fire bullets at least the size of an AR or Hunting Rifle round.

[Xzylvador]

Also against a normal target (say 8 points of armor)... APDS in a SMG/Heavy pistol or AR is still far more deadly.  You still only have about 4 points of armor... but all that damge is going straight to physical.

Except that doing stun damage is almost always better then doing physical damage.

One of the things which makes the Slivergun a lot better than most people think it is.
The only silenced weapon you can legally carry around, its +5 AP makes sure it'll do S damage instead of P vs most people you want to take out and its damage+burst DV is more then enough to make sure the target is down.
I do keep forgetting where the errata of its AP is written...

[JustADude]

Also against a normal target (say 8 points of armor)... APDS in a SMG/Heavy pistol or AR is still far more deadly.  You still only have about 4 points of armor... but all that damge is going straight to physical.

Except that doing stun damage is almost always better then doing physical damage.

One of the things which makes the Slivergun a lot better than most people think it is.
The only silenced weapon you can legally carry around, its +5 AP makes sure it'll do S damage instead of P vs most people you want to take out and its damage+burst DV is more then enough to make sure the target is down.
I do keep forgetting where the errata of its AP is written...

You know, that actually makes a LOT of sense now that you say it like that. But doesn't the +5 actually add to their armor dice when they roll to soak?

EDIT: Actually, doing the math and assuming the standard 3 armor = 1 DV conversion, it would still be 6 DV, AP -1, wouldn't it?

[Mirikon]

Also against a normal target (say 8 points of armor)... APDS in a SMG/Heavy pistol or AR is still far more deadly.  You still only have about 4 points of armor... but all that damge is going straight to physical.

Except that doing stun damage is almost always better then doing physical damage.

Depends on who you're going after. Stun damage doesn't bother drones, and it most magicians and even technomancers are more likely to have high Willpower. Afterall, you use Manabolt on the Street Sam, and Powerbolt on the mage, just like how in D&D you target the Fighter's Will save, and the Wizard's Fort save.

[farothel]

I don't think stick and shock is all that overpowered.  OK, in light pistols perhaps, but in heavy pistols, shotguns and SMGs, it's DV isn't that much different from the normal one (only 1 DV difference at most).  And you get to resist with body+half impact if I'm not mistaken, just like any other bullet type, so a troll isn't going to have much trouble with it.

Also, in a lot of the books (mostly in the shadowtalk) they speak about not killing people so the corps will do less effort to track you down.

[Mäx]

I don't think stick and shock is all that overpowered.  OK, in light pistols perhaps, but in heavy pistols, shotguns and SMGs, it's DV isn't that much different from the normal one (only 1 DV difference at most).

Yeah and in most situations where you're limited to nothing bigger then a light pistol(the situation where S&S shines the most), you would be better of just using Defiance ex Shocker, witch gives you 2 points higher base damage and is totally legal with-out any permits to boot.
Or Tiffany Needler pistol is also a good alternative doing 8P AP +5 from a hold-out sized package.