[Brigand]

Looking for some advice and/or feedback from other GMs and players.  After carefully considering its mechanical impact, my crew and I have decided this ammunition is overpowered and underpriced.  We're considering several options including nerfing it, outright disallowing it, or a simple gentleman's agreement for everyone (PC and NPC) to seriously limit its usage.

Have any of you guys encountered problems with this ammo?  What did you do?

Thanks.

[Tsuzua]

SnS is extremely effective and throws off weapon comparisons.  The often overlooked -2 dice penalty electrical shock side effect is extremely nice.  There's thematic considerations as well.  Guns should fire bullets not tiny tasers.  There should effort to not kill someone when shooting them with an AK-47.  In my games, we still use SnS, but I would be just as happy without it.  Most people tend to ignore SnS in my experience or pretend non-conductivity is enough to negate them.

The only thing I do suggest when removing SnS is to keep in mind spirits.  SnS is the great equalizer between mundanes and spirits*.  Considering where a mage can sneak a force 6 spirit into, it's nice if mundanes have an option other than take it.  Tasers might work well enough.

*- Basically it's that the -1/2 AP works on the hardened armor that Immunity to Normal Weapons provides.  Some people don't like this due to the idea that spirits don't have nervous system.  Personally I see it as a variant of the idea from older edition that spirits are affected by "elemental" attacks

[Xzylvador]

One way to fix them without banning them is by allowing them to be used in shotguns only, pretty much like they exist now.
Another option is to make it so they don't get extra damage from net hits, they'll always do their base damage, explained because they just electrocute you regardless of hitting you in the arm or in the chest. --Whether Aimed Shot extra damage would count, I'll leave to you... a taser in the eye (or nuts) sounds quite painful.--

Imo, there's worse things than SnS. Slab or Narcoject capsule rounds are one-shots more often than SnS. Stunball or Stunbolt still is ridiculously easy to overcast as F10. And even if you take SnS out, a bunch of tasers could be more problematic: more damage and they're actually allowed to be carried with a lot less restriction than a gun with SnS rounds. Range has rarely been a factor most firefight's I've played so far. I for one am happy there's an effective way to take down enemies without killing them.

That said, from what I've read in other threads you're not the only GM who's got problems with SnS. None of mine ever had though...

[The_Gun_Nut]

Personally, I rule it that unless the damage (net hits included) exceeds the armor value of the target, then the target takes no damage.  This simulates the SnS striking the armor and discharging instead of actually striking the muscle tissue (which is how it does it's damage).

[Tsuzua]

One way to fix them without banning them is by allowing them to be used in shotguns only, pretty much like they exist now.
Another option is to make it so they don't get extra damage from net hits, they'll always do their base damage, explained because they just electrocute you regardless of hitting you in the arm or in the chest. --Whether Aimed Shot extra damage would count, I'll leave to you... a taser in the eye (or nuts) sounds quite painful.--

Imo, there's worse things than SnS. Slab or Narcoject capsule rounds are one-shots more often than SnS. Stunball or Stunbolt still is ridiculously easy to overcast as F10. And even if you take SnS out, a bunch of tasers could be more problematic: more damage and they're actually allowed to be carried with a lot less restriction than a gun with SnS rounds. Range has rarely been a factor most firefight's I've played so far. I for one am happy there's an effective way to take down enemies without killing them.

That said, from what I've read in other threads you're not the only GM who's got problems with SnS. None of mine ever had though...

Making SnS a shotgun round is also a decent idea since shotguns need all the love they can get.  As for tasers, they are legal sources of electricity damage.  However, it's hard to make them into a FA weapon which helps keeps the damage down.  A SnS SMG can have recoilless 11S and 8S shots.

As for non-lethal options, they are gel rounds that everyone forgets about.  -1DV (the AP largely balances itself out) is a decent trade off for something you'll prefer doing. Narcojet and drugs are effective but even the fastest drug (immediate speed) doesn't take effect till the end of the combat turn.  Thus, you can get taken out yourself.

Most people problems with SnS is mainly they're good enough that everyone should ask themselves why aren't they using SnS.  It causes some oddness on the lower end of the firearm scale (AR and lower) due the fact it equalizes DV.  This leads to many firefights becoming don't taze me brofests.

Stunbolt/Stunball are far worse offenders that badly need a nerf.  Magicians in general do need whackings with the nerf stick.

[Mäx]

Many like to make a big fuss about how over powered S&S is, but a simple fact is that most targets go down on 2 shots no matter what ammo you use, s&s just does more overkill damage(damage that wasn't needed to take down the target) in many cases(but not always)

[JustADude]

Personally, I rule it that unless the damage (net hits included) exceeds the armor value of the target, then the target takes no damage.  This simulates the SnS striking the armor and discharging instead of actually striking the muscle tissue (which is how it does it's damage).

Actually, modern stun-gun type weapons (Taser is a brand-name, people!) are capable of connecting an arc without actually penetrating the skin. The human body is very conductive to electricity; especially after you've been sweating.

[CanRay]

Yeah, so are Jake Brakes.    And Kleenex.    And Post-Its. 

And now I have rabid attack lawyers all over me.

[Mirikon]

Any mass that is 2/3 water is going to conduct electricity very well.

Personally, I don't see a problem with SnS ammo. I don't see them as mini tasers, so much as a capacitor. They hit someone, they discharge. I can see the tech side of things, and all it would really take is an advance in miniaturization of capacitors of that power level from their current size today.

From a mechanics standpoint, it is true that 1-3 shots is usually enough to drop most people (Heavily armored trolls and spirits are not 'most people'). This especially is true when getting into higher end weapons. A sniper rifle can drop someone in two shots with regular ammo, let alone going with things like ExEx, APDS, or the like. A machine gun burst will saw most people in half. SnS does the same damage, no matter what weapon it is in, which makes a nice equalizer for groups who want to do nonlethal damage. Much less problematic than, say, a Super-Squirt filled with Laes. You hit with that, and they're down, period, since the initial effect is unconsciousness, regardless of Body, toxin resistance, or whatever. And the only real defense is chemical seal, which requires full body armor. At least with SnS there's Nonconductivity, which is much cheaper and easier to obtain.

[WareWolf]

In my group we balanced stick and shock by changing the damage value to be equal to the weapon fired.

As far as the armor defeating capabilities of SnS I would also suggest house ruling that the negative half armor piercing be reduced to -4, equivalent to APDS. Furthermore SnS should not benefit from any armor piercing from the weapon.

[The Big Peat]

I banned them, but that was because I didn't like them thematically, not because they're overpowered. I mean, they're a really good,really obvious option and depending on some people's definitions are overpowered, but there's an awful lot of very good, very nasty stuff in Shadowrun. Obviously there are some good ways to give them a gentle nerf in this thread (I like making them gun size dependent and reducing the armour modifier as ideas) but whichever way you handle it, guns still remain roughly as effective as ever.

Personally, if you don't like it, ban it - there's still tasers, gel rounds and gas grenades for non-lethal takedowns. Seems to me a lot easier than fiddling about.

[Mäx]

In my group we balanced stick and shock by changing the damage value to be equal to the weapon fired.

This get's mentioned a lot as a house rule.
I have never ever gotten this, as IMHo this truly makes S&S better then any other ammo for all weapons.

[Kontact]

Many like to make a big fuss about how over powered S&S is, but a simple fact is that most targets go down on 2 shots no matter what ammo you use, s&s just does more overkill damage(damage that wasn't needed to take down the target) in many cases(but not always)

SnS hate is usually a symptom of a GM thinking that he can control players with a few indestructible super-tanks.

SnS will still never kill a drone.  It might shut it down for a little bit, but robots don't take stun. 
This is its limitation. 
It needs no other.

[All4BigGuns]

I banned them, but that was because I didn't like them thematically, not because they're overpowered. I mean, they're a really good,really obvious option and depending on some people's definitions are overpowered, but there's an awful lot of very good, very nasty stuff in Shadowrun. Obviously there are some good ways to give them a gentle nerf in this thread (I like making them gun size dependent and reducing the armour modifier as ideas) but whichever way you handle it, guns still remain roughly as effective as ever.

Personally, if you don't like it, ban it - there's still tasers, gel rounds and gas grenades for non-lethal takedowns. Seems to me a lot easier than fiddling about.

Why don't you like the rounds? Stick-n-Shock seems to me to be exactly what Dunkelzahn was asking for in his will when he offered money to the person/corporation who created a non-lethal weapon useful at mid-range. THAT is why I like it from a setting standpoint. As to it being overpowered, oh hell no. Sure it'll do the listed damage in a light pistol, but if you load it into a Panther or a sniper rifle, it's still doing that damage, which isn't all that hard to resist when you really think about it.

[CanRay]

Yeah, too bad they're still low-lethality rounds rather than non-lethal, as he stipulated.  Still, it's a demonstration of where the technology is going.  And, as stated, RL versions of these exist for Shotguns today.

Restricting them to Shotguns or Rifles (Assault, Hunting and Sniper) might be a good middle ground.