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After errata, recoil seems a little toothless

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Dangersaurus

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« Reply #15 on: <06-25-14/1829:05> »
So... nobody has any actual in-game experience with the two different rulings? It's all forum warriors but me?

Namikaze

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« Reply #16 on: <06-25-14/1844:01> »
I played it both ways, and it didn't seem to make a difference in the long run.  As long as the rules are applied evenly across the board, you just go with it.
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Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #17 on: <06-25-14/2007:29> »
I did extensive demos with the rule before the errata and found that were it made the big difference was the NPC guards couldn't fire bursts in consecutive actions. When your life expectation is 2-3 actions this is a big deal. For more elite characters or larger dice pools it doesn't make much difference.

I like the errata better, but I do think it took much of the teeth out of the recoil rules.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #18 on: <06-26-14/0023:55> »
I honestly don't like them.  Especially not when combined with the new 'only one attack action' rule.  Consider this - a normal person (6 + 1d6) is going to get one attack action every three seconds.  Scan that again: every three seconds.  They can make one pistol shot in those three seconds, so it's BLAM one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand.  If they're especially lucky, they'll get two actions: BLAM-one thousand, two one BLAMsand, three one thousand.  Set a metronome - no, better yet, go here: http://www.webmetronome.com/.  Set the metronome to 120 (2 beats per second) and set the second dial to 6, for one combat turn.  You can click on just one - that's one shot every turn - and listen to how long you have between shots to recover from the recoil of a semi-automatic shot. Adjust it to emphasize the first and fourth - that's two shots.  Go on, I'll wait.

...

One 'tick' among the 'tocks' every three seconds sure as hell is a lot of time to recover from recoil, ain't it?  Even two, you get plenty of time.  I can see a competent shooter, someone with a 4 or 5 in the skill, handling without penalty one semi-automatic or short burst shot per second (accents on 1, 3, and 5), even under fire.  I can see anyone at all handling one shot per turn with no problem, too, so long as they didn't have an incompetency in the skill.  Someone who's especially competent - like that guy who accurately fires 6 shots from a single-shot weapon (a revolver) in a half-second - to be able to handle more fire, simply because they know how to handle the recoil, to ride it, to use it to set up their next shot.

Hm.

I may have to work on this, but if I do, I'm pretty sure my house recoil rulings are going to be a matter of skill, not pure muscle.  Muscle may enter into the equation, especially with autofire weapons, but it isn't going to matter a whit when it comes to SS/SA weapons ...
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martinchaen

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« Reply #19 on: <06-26-14/0058:16> »
So... nobody has any actual in-game experience with the two different rulings? It's all forum warriors but me?
Well, our table always used the rules as they were intended, that is, according to the errata, so no, we never used the proposed house rules. We are all in agreement that the rules in the book (as clarified by errata) are good enough for the system as is.

Medicineman

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« Reply #20 on: <06-26-14/0214:38> »
So... nobody has any actual in-game experience with the two different rulings? It's all forum warriors but me?
I've played ...like ...a dozen Runs on Conventions and I don't really see a difference between shooting smg or Assault Rifles in SR5 and in 4A.
in 4A they where a little bit more pimped for recoil compensation but thats all.
And I don't relly note ACC Limitations in SR5 too, so either my chars are all well made or Limitations are a hyperbole

 
I played it both ways, and it didn't seem to make a difference in the long run.  As long as the rules are applied evenly across the board, you just go with it.

that's my impression too

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Kincaid

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« Reply #21 on: <06-26-14/0810:22> »
Honestly, the biggest difference I've seen is from the GM side of things.  Decision making for goons is much easier (long bursts over and over vs. coordinated attacks so people can reset their recoil), but the consequence is the tactical side of things is less enjoyable.

I haven't yet played with the new options from Run & Gun.  I'm curious to see how the various Complex Actions in there work with clarified recoil, since many of them are excellent ways of increasing your damage.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #22 on: <06-27-14/1246:54> »
I honestly don't like them.  Especially not when combined with the new 'only one attack action' rule.  Consider this - a normal person (6 + 1d6) is going to get one attack action every three seconds.  Scan that again: every three seconds.  They can make one pistol shot in those three seconds, so it's BLAM one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand.  If they're especially lucky, they'll get two actions: BLAM-one thousand, two one BLAMsand, three one thousand.  Set a metronome - no, better yet, go here: http://www.webmetronome.com/.  Set the metronome to 120 (2 beats per second) and set the second dial to 6, for one combat turn.  You can click on just one - that's one shot every turn - and listen to how long you have between shots to recover from the recoil of a semi-automatic shot. Adjust it to emphasize the first and fourth - that's two shots.  Go on, I'll wait.

...

One 'tick' among the 'tocks' every three seconds sure as hell is a lot of time to recover from recoil, ain't it?  Even two, you get plenty of time.  I can see a competent shooter, someone with a 4 or 5 in the skill, handling without penalty one semi-automatic or short burst shot per second (accents on 1, 3, and 5), even under fire.  I can see anyone at all handling one shot per turn with no problem, too, so long as they didn't have an incompetency in the skill.  Someone who's especially competent - like that guy who accurately fires 6 shots from a single-shot weapon (a revolver) in a half-second - to be able to handle more fire, simply because they know how to handle the recoil, to ride it, to use it to set up their next shot.

Hm.

I may have to work on this, but if I do, I'm pretty sure my house recoil rulings are going to be a matter of skill, not pure muscle.  Muscle may enter into the equation, especially with autofire weapons, but it isn't going to matter a whit when it comes to SS/SA weapons ...

Meh, turn based mechanics will always have issues like this as the turn or pass is meant to encompass a wide range of activities not just standing still while shooting.  So while real life has its place it doesn't always help in abstract systems. 

The game mechanics do play out differently in my experience. I don't see it as better or worse, as both versions have positive and negative aspects but its too abstract IMO to get hung up on what 3 seconds is.

Medicineman

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« Reply #23 on: <06-27-14/1539:19> »
Quote
They can make one pistol shot in those three seconds, so it's BLAM one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand.
NoNo, You got it wrong ;) :)
They can shoot twice with a Pistol, they can make only one Attack. so the second shot has to be in the Air (or somewhere its save ;) )
You could also Double Tap a single Target or even triple Tap
but you can't shoot two adjacent Goons

with a save Dance
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« Last Edit: <06-27-14/1541:29> by Medicineman »
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MadBear

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« Reply #24 on: <06-27-14/1811:06> »
You also have to understand that you are doing more than just standing still, holding a gun, pulling the trigger as fast as you can. You are looking around you for targets and enemies; remember that SR does not deal with facing, it's assumed you are moving and turning. You are also dodging any incoming attacks, ducking and weaving. Not to mention any movement you may or not make, or cover you may or may not take advantage of. The limited number of attacks is more of a number of 'effective' attacks. This is illustrated better with melee combat, where each attack is assumed to a series of strikes, each melee attack roll is more than just a single punch.
I am torn on the errata'ed change. One the one hand it makes more sense to me that Taking Aim, or (free action w/ smartlink) ejecting  a clip then Simple Action Insert Clip will reset recoil. On the other, SS weapons now get nerfed. The Ruger really has no advantage over the Predator now. Well, maybe the extra point of AP, but is that worth the limited ammo and the inability to fire Semi Auto Burst? Smaller revolvers are also capable of SA fire, like the Taurus Multi with light pistol ammo, or the Cavalier Deputy. If it were up to me, I would beef up the Ruger just a tiny bit to compensate. A higher DV, maybe, or AP3? Hell, even counting the total damage as two higher for purposes of Knock Down would be nice. No, this has nothing to do with my Orc Sammie's favorite weapon being a Ruger, why do you ask?
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Xenon

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« Reply #25 on: <06-27-14/1905:46> »
Quote
They can make one pistol shot in those three seconds, so it's BLAM one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand.
NoNo, You got it wrong ;) :)
They can shoot twice with a Pistol, they can make only one Attack. so the second shot has to be in the Air (or somewhere its save ;) )
You could also Double Tap a single Target or even triple Tap
but you can't shoot two adjacent Goons
you can shoot up to 3 adjacent goons as one single complex action + a free action as long as they are within short or medium range and you have a pistol skill of 5+ ;)

Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using this fire mode...
« Last Edit: <06-27-14/1907:54> by Xenon »

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #26 on: <06-27-14/2057:32> »
Timing is why I houserule that any Semiautomatic or faster firing weapon can make suppressive fire... still takes 20 rounds, but that can come from different magazines.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #27 on: <06-27-14/2132:37> »
You also have to understand that you are doing more than just standing still, holding a gun, pulling the trigger as fast as you can. You are looking around you for targets and enemies; remember that SR does not deal with facing, it's assumed you are moving and turning. You are also dodging any incoming attacks, ducking and weaving. Not to mention any movement you may or not make, or cover you may or may not take advantage of. The limited number of attacks is more of a number of 'effective' attacks. This is illustrated better with melee combat, where each attack is assumed to a series of strikes, each melee attack roll is more than just a single punch.

Nobody understands this better than I, but adjusting for recoil is actually easier when you're active - and the game already has penalties for movement and the like.  Your statement seems to suggest that awareness and body activity impairs adjusting for recoil; my statement is that, depending on skill level, adjusting for a certain amount of recoil is par for the course.  Recovering from the recoil of firing a weapon once every 1.5-3 seconds because that's how often you take an attack action that's a firearms attack ... I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't make sense.

I do agree with needing to track this stuff across a Turn; while I fondly remember the super-speed street sam who could fire a 'cut down' modified assault shotgun as a pistol, firing semi-automatic and empty its 10-round magazine in one combat Turn, that is too much, and recoil should have to be accounted for.

Thinking this over, I believe I'm going to view it this way:

A character's recoil compensation is equal to 1 free shot + 1/3 strength + 1/3 skill + recoil compensation on the weapon.  Progressive recoil is as stated in the errata, with one variation - that 'one free shot' and the skill-based recoil compensation resets every Turn.  If you're skilled with a pistol, hammering away with semi-automatic fire every second and a half isn't going to be a problem.  If you've got the jitters and your initiative is 18 + 4d6 and you're managing to fire five (or ten - I plan in my game on house ruling that you can use two simple actions for basic semi-automatic fire every initiative pass - not sure about BF short bursts yet, though) shots, then yeah, there's only so much recoil skill can handle, and that penalty remains until the person 'recovers from recoil' - and if it progresses into the next action, that penalty remains and is not reduced; you simply don't get more added on until you exceed your limit again.

In any case.  My game, my rules; I'm not arguing for a change, just hammering out how it'll work at my table.  (Setting up a group soon, so ...)
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Agonar

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« Reply #28 on: <06-28-14/0121:56> »
I have been running an online Shadowrun game since the PDF was released last year.  So nearly a year of running a game.  We used Progressive Recoil as printed in the Core Book, and never had any problems.  Yes, this "uberstrong Troll will eventually have such a high penalty with a Semi Automatic Weapon that he would miss the ground if the barrel was pressed into the dirt" situation sounds good on paper, yet it never came up in my game from August (or whenever the PDF came out) until February (When the errata came out). 

By the time anyone was close to having SA recoil issues, the fight was either over, or the PC had to reload, or just the general flow of the game caused them to take a full Phase without firing, and thus resetting recoil.

So along comes the errata, which was supposed to reword it, because some were confused about the actual wording "cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase."

Now, some debated that this meant recoil reset as long as you weren't shooting for an entire action phase.  So, Simple Action shoot, Simple Action Pick your nose cleared recoil, because you picking your nose meant  you weren't shooting for the entire action phase.  Most seemed to read it that you needed an entire action phase in which you did not shoot at all.

Back to the Errata.  What did it fix?  The only thing it seemed to "Fix" was the troll missing the planet with the barrel in the ground, maybe on the last shot of a 15 round magazine (assuming any actual skill in shooting). 

What did it break?  It broke Single Shot weapons.  Well, maybe not broke them, but negated their only real benefit, and that being no accumulated recoil.,  Because now, a SA weapon fired once per turn also meant no accumulated recoil.  It also broke Simple Action Full Auto.  Taking a 6 round burst, Phase after Phase, combined with aiming actions or whatnot, means you never accumulate recoil.  This lumps them in with the Single Shot weapon benefit as well.

Complex Full Auto did't see any changes.

So, in my game, I decided not to use the errata in this regard.  There were some other areas where the errata broke things.  Adepts can't initiate, according to the errata.  They tried to reword something to correct a mistake, and worded it in a way that broke it.  We disregard this "clarification" as well, since I have adepts in my group that would like to Initiate.

So, since the errata came out in Feb, I've still continued to use recoil as presented in the core book, and still haven't had any issues.  That high strength troll still hits the ground well after combat ends because that extreme recoil penalty never seems to get high enough to matter.  I am not saying that it will never be a problem, but in nearly a year's worth of gaming experience, it hasn't yet.
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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #29 on: <06-28-14/0127:01> »
^^ THIS