[Kincaid]

I bring up thermographic not because of wireless but rather because of page 163's description of Change Linked Device Mode.

A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode of any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface....[t]his includes...deactivating thermographic vision.

That reads as though turning off your thermo cybereyes as a Free Action requires DNI.

[Xenon]

That reads as though turning off your thermo cybereyes as a Free Action requires DNI.

As long as you have trodes or internal datajack / cyberdeck / commlink you can change most things as a free action.
Like turning off thermographic vision in your wireless goggles or wireless imaging scope.

Without trodes or internal datajack / cyberdeck / commlink most things take a simple action to change
(either physically touching a switch on the device or controlling a virtual button or switch with AR)



When it comes to cyberware (such as thermographic vision in a pair of cybereyes) you seem to have access to a "special" neural interface (even if you don't have trodes or internal datajack / cyberdeck / commlink).

SR5 p. 451 Augmentation
...Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the “moving parts” are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active.

[Kincaid]

This is really my point: why would the neural interface rule that allows for "special" interaction apply to thermographic augmentation and not smartlink augmentation?

[Xenon]

This is really my point: why would the neural interface rule that allows for "special" interaction apply to thermographic augmentation and not smartlink augmentation?

Seriously.. what are you talking about now...??

No, you can't use the neural interface (not talking about DNI now) to send a wireless command the wireless smartgun so it eject the clip as a mental free action because the wireless smartgun is not a moving part connected to your nervous system (maybe if it was a cybergun).

Yes, you can use the  neural interface (not talking about DNI now) to turn wireless OFF in your cybernetic eyes that are augmented with a Smartlink Vision Enhancement instead of sending a wireless command.

You can use DNI provided by wearing trodes, installing a datajack, internal commlink or an internal cyberdeck to wireless command the wireless firearm to eject the clip as a free action. Why? Because p. 424 say so.
...If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action...

You can also use DNI provided by wearing trodes, installing a datajack, internal commlink or an internal cyberdeck to command the wireless smartgun system to eject the clip as a free action? Why? Because p. 433 say so.
...The smartgun features are accessed ... by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface...
Wireless: ...Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions.

Do you even need a smartlink to eject the clip as a free action?
No. Why?
Because the smartlink only provide the dice pool bonus (and wind shift bonus and possible the Take Aim bonus).
Smartlink does not provide the ejecting as a free action bonus.
For that you only need a wireless smartgun system working in concert with DNI....

[firebug]

Fun fact, it's actually the DNI that is important for ejecting as a free action, not the smartgun system.  The beginning of the Firearm's section has an often-overlooked couple paragraphs...

Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital ammunition counter. Ammunition (p. 433) is sold separately. All firearms have the following wireless bonuses in addition to any wireless bonuses on each model:

Wireless: The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded. If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.

[WellsIDidIt]

Seriously.. what are you talking about now...??

He seem to be pointing out how dumb it was to design the rules the way they currently are.

There didn't used to be a difference between the interface for your augmentations and DNI. In SR3, it was all considered DNI.

Now, here we are in the wireless age, and now the basics of the interface have changed and are drastically different (even though it makes no sense for talking to a machine to be different than talking to a machine when they require the same interface to be talked to). Supposedly wired is slower than wireless, by wired has to have been working at the speed of thought for 25 years now to make cyberware work right to begin with (I don't have to spend simple actions to take each step after all, I just think and walk).

I talk to my Wireless ON augmentation smartlnk the same way I would talk to a Wireless ON Imaging Device with smartlink through a WIreless ON datajack, but only the latter can send the Wireless signal to the Smartgun to drop a clip or change the mode. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

It's so nonsensical that even the writers apparently can't keep the distinction between NI and DNI straight all the time. It's as bad as continuing to keep Smartlink and Smartgun separate (instead of just having Smartgun require an Image Link), which they can't seem to keep straight either.

[Kincaid]

Seriously.. what are you talking about now...??

He seem to be pointing out how dumb it was to design the rules the way they currently are.

There didn't used to be a difference between the interface for your augmentations and DNI. In SR3, it was all considered DNI.

Now, here we are in the wireless age, and now the basics of the interface have changed and are drastically different (even though it makes no sense for talking to a machine to be different than talking to a machine when they require the same interface to be talked to). Supposedly wired is slower than wireless, by wired has to have been working at the speed of thought for 25 years now to make cyberware work right to begin with (I don't have to spend simple actions to take each step after all, I just think and walk).

I talk to my Wireless ON augmentation smartlnk the same way I would talk to a Wireless ON Imaging Device with smartlink through a WIreless ON datajack, but only the latter can send the Wireless signal to the Smartgun to drop a clip or change the mode. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

It's so nonsensical that even the writers apparently can't keep the distinction between NI and DNI straight all the time. It's as bad as continuing to keep Smartlink and Smartgun separate (instead of just having Smartgun require an Image Link), which they can't seem to keep straight either.

Yeah, my point wasn't to draw out an argument with Xenon, but to point out the problems with editing in 5e.  And, I suppose, to wax nostalgic for my 3e router...sigh.

When we're talking about microprocessors, what is and isn't a "moving part" seems entirely arbitrary.  Something in my eye projects information into my field of vision letting me know the wind speed, distance to target, etc.  But that's not moving because the moving parts are in my gun.  Conversely, I can use an Image Link via neural interface (not DNI) to scan over images sent to my commlink from my fairly mobile FlySpy because that is moving.

[Demon_Bob]

I bring up thermographic not because of wireless but rather because of page 163's description of Change Linked Device Mode.

A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode of any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface....[t]his includes...deactivating thermographic vision.

That reads as though turning off your thermo cybereyes as a Free Action requires DNI.

Wouldn't cybereyes have a DNI when they are implanted?

[firebug]

I bring up thermographic not because of wireless but rather because of page 163's description of Change Linked Device Mode.

A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode of any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface....[t]his includes...deactivating thermographic vision.

That reads as though turning off your thermo cybereyes as a Free Action requires DNI.

Wouldn't cybereyes have a DNI when they are implanted?

They would.  You have a direct neural connection to all cyberware.

[FasterN8]

Not really, you have a "neutral interface" to all your cyberware, but DNI is a more specific thing granted by DICTID (because I'm tired of typing out: Datajack, Implanted commlink, Trodes, Implanted Deck).

[Xenon]

The "neural interface" (not DNI) that you have to all your cyberware is not wireless and have no universal access port for a wire.
It can not/never be used to talk to external devices (like an external commlink).


To send an image from your commlink to your goggles with your image link you use wireless communication.
To send the image from your goggles to your brain you LOOK at the image with your eyes.


If you have trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck...
then you can send the image from your commlink to your trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck wireless
And from trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck directly into your brain.
No need for goggles with an image link if you have trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck.

[Xenon]

There didn't used to be a difference between the interface for your augmentations and DNI. In SR3, it was all considered DNI.

I dont remember that you could interface with external devices in SR3. At least not without a data jack. Or wireless for that matter... Long time ago. You might be correct.

[WellsIDidIt]

The "neural interface" (not DNI) that you have to all your cyberware is not wireless and have no universal access port for a wire.
It can not/never be used to talk to external devices (like an external commlink).


To send an image from your commlink to your goggles with your image link you use wireless communication.
To send the image from your goggles to your brain you LOOK at the image with your eyes.


If you have trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck...
then you can send the image from your commlink to your trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck wireless
And from trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck directly into your brain.
No need for goggles with an image link if you have trodes or internal datajack/commlink/cyberdeck.

The neural interface may not be wireless, but the point, is that all the cyberware it lets you control is wireless.

To send a signal from your implanted smartlink to you smartgun, you use wireless signals (unless you have a datajack). The implanted smartlink has wireless capabilities (whether you have a datajack or not). You can use an implanted smartlink without ever having a datajack. (replace datajack with all the other forms of  rules forms of DNI as appropriate)

So it goes like this:
Implanted Smartlink Without DNI
-NI to Smartlink
-Smartlink Wireless to Smartgun

Implanted Smartlink with DNI
-NI to Smartlink
-Smartlink to DNI
-DNI to Smartgun

Somehow adding another step into the process is faster and makes you magically able to communicate with machines differently. It doesn't make sense.

I dont remember that you could interface with external devices in SR3. At least not without a data jack. Or wireless for that matter... Long time ago. You might be correct.

Wireless wasn't commonplace, but it was possible to extend a cyberlimb's DNI onto other items with the right setup. The limiting factor wasn't the interface, it was the wiring (which wireless has eliminated).

Not really, you have a "neutral interface" to all your cyberware, but DNI is a more specific thing granted by DICTID (because I'm tired of typing out: Datajack, Implanted commlink, Trodes, Implanted Deck).

The problem is that a neural interface to a wireless augmentation capable of talking to an external device shouldn't be any different than DNI. It's already doing exactly what the DNI used to do. In fact, in SR3, it would have just been called DNI.

[Xenon]

Why do you keep mentioning smartlink?

To change fire mode as a free action in SR5 you need a wireless gun and you need to send your wish to change fire mode as a wireless instruction to the gun. The way you do that in SR5 is by using trodes or internal datajack / commlink / cyberdeck.

In SR5 your smartlink is not used at all to change fire mode as a free action.

The only device that let you link your brain with a wireless device is a Trode Net. The only Augmentations that let you link your brain with a wireless device are internal datajack / cyberdeck / commlink.

By RAW you cannot go wireless ON in your Dermal Plating, Wired Reflexes or Cyber Eyes and use that to link your brain to a wireless device. They can go wireless ON and they can communicate with wireless devices, but you can not use them to link your brain. You cannot use them to change fire mode as a Free Action. They dont provide you with DNI.

Implanted Smartlink with DNI
-NI to Smartlink
-Smartlink to DNI
-DNI to Smartgun

No... To change fire mode as a free action is like this:
- DNI to Smartgun

Smartlink is not needed for this wireless bonus. It will be a Simple Action to change fire mode if you dont have DNI communicating directly with the wireless Gun.

[WellsIDidIt]

Let's take a look at the actual rules for Smartgun and Smartlink then:
Smartgun system: This connects a firearm or a projectile weapon directly to the user’s smartlink. Incorporating a small camera and laser range finder, the smartlink keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress. If you have a smartlink, you can mentally switch between gun modes, eject a clip, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger.

Now let's look at your points.

In SR5 your smartlink is not used at all to change fire mode as a free action.

Blatantly false. The only time a Smartlink is not used, is if you are using the gun's wireless bonus instead of the Smartlink/Smartgun wireless bonus. If you are using the Smartlink/Smartgun wireless bonus, the Smartgun and Smartlink are both being used. The rules right there blatantly put a requirement ("If you have a smart link") on doing this through the Smartgun system.

The only device that let you link your brain with a wireless device is a Trode Net. The only Augmentations that let you link your brain with a wireless device are internal datajack / cyberdeck / commlink.

Again, false. Every single augmentation that has settings is a wireless device. All of them let you connect your brain to said wireless device. It's just that trodes, datajacks, internal decks and internal commlinks are the only ways to link your brain to an external wireless device by the rules. That's the dumb part that Kincaid and I were talking about. A simple look at Smartgun/Smartlink shows that the devices talk to each other (whether you have a DNI source or not). You have a direct connection where your brain talks to your smartlink. But you can't have your smartlink talk to your smartgun for you. That's just plain dumb.

It's like saying that I can talk to you, and you can talk to Kincaid, but I can't directly talk to Kincaid even though we're using the same exact interface to talk.

No... To change fire mode as a free action is like this:
- DNI to Smartgun

Smartlink is not needed for this wireless bonus. It will be a Simple Action to change fire mode if you dont have DNI communicating directly with the wireless Gun.

Then please explain this sentence:
"If you have a smartlink, you can mentally switch between gun modes, eject a clip, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger."

Unless a DNI is not considered mental, it's is crystal clear that a smartlink is required to use that wireless bonus. I can not, for the life of me, figure out why it would start with, "If you have a smart link" when you don't have to have a smartlink to do it using the smartgun/smartlink systems.

So, your proposal is that you never talk to the smartlink to perform an action that absolutely requires the smartlink in order to be performed.

That's like saying that Kincaid has to be here for me to talk to you, even if he has nothing to do with the conversation. Even if that made a bit of sense, it would, at the very least, require a check to make sure that Kincaid is here.

That would be a communication with the smartlink before DNI to the smartgun.

Nowhere is it required to have a wireless gun to make use of a wireless smartgun/smartlink system. I don't know where you are getting that from.