[Cronstintein]

I believe you are mistaken about specializing in the technique to double up on the +2 bonuses.  My understanding is your martial arts style is acting as a specialization already.  So any time you're using a technique from a style, you would get the bonus but it would not stack with other specializations.

That doesn't seem at all correct.  You can buy a specialization for 7 Karma, and, alternatively, you can buy access to a style and one maneuver for 7 Karma.

5e book for unarmed combat pg132: "Specializations: Blocking, Cyber Implants, Subduing Combat, or by specific Martial Art"

R&G pg  128: "Martial arts styles may
also be selected as specializations for the normal cost
of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2
bonus when using that technique"

Pretty sure my interpretation is correct.

[JackVII]

According to one of the freelancers, the interpretation is incorrect. Apparently, learning a martial art style and specializing ina martial art style are different things. The text is definitely not clear about this and there are examples in the book that seems to combine the two.

[Cronstintein]

Can you point me to the contradiction?   I appreciate and welcome anyone official clarifying rules but he's still human and quite able to misinterpret things (possibly the post he was replying to in this case) like anyone else.  In his example he talked about grabbing the technique from two separate styles to get the technique +1 twice, not martial art+ spec+ technique which would have been+5 in your example.

Edit: Just to add one more piece of evidence for my case pg 135
"Each style can be used as a skill specialization. Some of
these styles can be a specialization for a combination of skills.
The gamemaster determines if it is allowable for that skill.
Examples: Chakram Fighting can be applied to both the
Exotic Ranged and Melee Weapon skill; Gun Kata can be
applied to both firearms and clubs."

Which lends itself to the interpretation that the style itself acts as a specialization.  Also note that the karma costs and training times for MA styles match specialization exactly.

The only things that don't match up with my interpretation are the examples themselves, which I feel are wrong in a couple ways.  1. The bouncer doesn't have a style at all.  2.  Ryu applies a specialization bonus for counterstrike but not the knock down sweep.  So the question is, do we follow the rule block or the examples?  I don't think this is the first time this has come up in 5e...

[JackVII]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just relaying what one of the freelancers, presumably someone who worked on the book, explained. While we have had some examples of freelancers being incorrect in the end, most of them (progressive recoil, repair costs) have been dead on.

Gibraltar indicated that of the two options I listed, the later was correct, which would indicate it takes 14 karma to gain both the style and a specialization in the style (implying that they are different things).

I personally prefer the interpretation that martial arts styles exist outside the skill structure. The martial arts styles are pretty limited, after all.

[martinchaen]

5e book for unarmed combat pg132: "Specializations: Blocking, Cyber Implants, Subduing Combat, or by specific Martial Art"

R&G pg  128: "Martial arts styles may also be selected as specializations for the normal cost of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2 bonus when using that technique"

Pretty sure my interpretation is correct.

The way I read it, you can pick a Martial Art style for 7 karma which includes the style and one technique (for instance, Wudang Sword and Finishing Move). You could further Specialize in the style (in this case, Wudang Sword is a Blades specialization) to gain a +2 dice pool for all techniques granted by the Martial Art.

In the example I used, presuming an Agility 3 and Blades (Wudang Sword) 3 (+2) and the Wudang Sword Martial art with the Finishing Move technique, you could declare a Finishing Move Complex Action and roll Agility 3 + Blades 3 + Wudang Sword Specialization 2 for a total of 8 dice on the first attack, and if the first attack hit you would roll an additional +2 as per the Finishing Move attack.

If you additionally specialized in Swords, you would roll Agility 3 + Blades 3 + Swords 2 + Wudang Sword +2 for a total of 10 dice on the first attack, and 12 on the second. Finishing move is a bad example for grabbing multiple styles with the same technique, because as per page 128 you can only ever get a +2 bonus or a total reduction of modifiers of 2.

[Cronstintein]

Actually the way I'm looking at it, getting a MA style for a character that might regularly do melee isn't a bad investment. 

Say a katana wielding character.
Spends 7 karma to get a kenjutsu MA style.
Now he gets +2 for all his sword attacks (as if he had taken a sword spec).
Also he gets to pick a technique. Iajutsu and Finishing move both look good so lets say he grabs both, costing him another 5 karma.
And just for completeness sake we'll use each of the skills once:
Iajutsu :  Weaponskill + reaction (3) test.  <- the specialization would be applied to his weapon skill here, don't add it twice!
Finishing Move: Makes a normal attack Weaponskill + Agility vs Rea + Int.  <-the spec would be applied here as well since it's included in the weapon skill assuming he's using a sword.

The idea of taking spec: swords then spec: wudang sword seems weird to me.  Doesn't really feel like RAI or RAW especially when that last section I quoted on pg 135 specifically says the MA is acting as a specialization for that skill.  Would you let a player specialize twice for the same roll generally?  Small pistols and silenced pistols or some similar drek?  Doesn't seem right.


EDIT: Note that if you allow spec stacking you could conceivably grab blades, kenjutsu, pentjak-silat and wudang and get +8 on every sword roll...

[martinchaen]

Cronstintein
Except the rules specifically allow Martial Art styles to be taken as specializations, but do not require it.

To my mind, specializing in Blades (Swords) means you know how to use the sword in general combat, and gives you a +2 dice to all rolls using Swords. Specializing in Blades (Wudang Sword), however, only grants you a +2 dice pool modifier to all Wudang Sword techniques, and as far as I can tell do not grant you the modifier on all attacks made with swords.

Thus, Specializing in Swords AND Wudang Sword/Kenjutsu would give you a +2 dice pool modifier to all attacks made with swords, AND an additional +2 modifier to all Wudang Sword/Kenjutsu techniques.

Also note that p128 specifically precludes the same techniques from different styles from granting more than a +2 bonus or a total modifier reduction of 2.

[Cronstintein]

Where do you see taking a MA style as anything other than a specialization described on 128 (7 karma, 1 month training time, "as a specialization") and 135 "as a specialization".   

On 135 it specifically says you can use your style as a spec for the weapon used in the style (ie: wudang swords includes a blade specialization).  So why would you ever combine blade spec + wudang spec? 

At no point does it refer to having two different levels of a MA style (spec'd vs non-spec'd).  And in the block text it talks about taking the style and 5 techniques as the max you can do at chargen for 27 karma.  (7 + 5+5+5+5) at no point mentioning an additional option of spec'ing again.  Which would be 7+7+(4  x addional techniques).

At this point I feel like Don Quixote tilting at wind-mills but until someone shows me some rule text that confirms your alternate view, I'm holding fast.

[martinchaen]

Martial arts styles may also be selected as specializations for the normal cost of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2 bonus when using that technique.

Emphasis mine.

Buying a new style costs 7 Karma, and when you buy that style you may then choose a technique to go with it. Buying additional techniques costs 5 Karma. At character creation, you can buy up to 5 total techniques, in a single style, which costs 27 Karma. You can only buy one style at character creation.

This implies that buying a style is not the same as buying a specialization.

Each style can be used as a skill specialization.

At no point is it stated that a style MUST be bought as a specialization. There is a clear precedent in the core rules for allowing skills to be specialized in, and this is followed up on in R&G on page 135; there is, however, no precedent for giving a specialization additional benefits, such as what you're suggesting, but spending 7 karma to get a style, a technique, AND a +2 to all techniques for that style.

As I read it, you buy the style for 7 karma and get a free technique, and you may then buy further techniques from the same style for an additional 5 karma, and/or choose to specialize in the style for the relevant combat skill for an additional 7 karma for the +2 dice pool modifier.

To my mind, you're weighting the table on p135 as implying the ONLY way a Martial Art style can be taken, when both it and the rules on page 128 clearly state CAN and MAY when referring to Martial Art styles as specializations. Add to that the fact that one of the freelancers do not agree with your interpretation, and I'm fairly confident in my view.

[FangHamhands]

So does that mean you can buy a Martial Art without having any of the Close Combat group skills?

[Kincaid]

Has anyone come up with a way of explaining how Universal Mirror Metal can be used defensively?  Presumably, you can force people trying to hack you PAN into taking a Noise penalty, but does this hurt your own wireless or is it a one-way thing, like the description implies?

[firebug]

Has anyone come up with a way of explaining how Universal Mirror Metal can be used defensively?  Presumably, you can force people trying to hack you PAN into taking a Noise penalty, but does this hurt your own wireless or is it a one-way thing, like the description implies?

It definitely hurts your own wireless, hence the "was intended to jam up technomancers".  I don't see the point of it.  The only reason I could see is if you use Aaron's ruling of "noise can't prevent wireless transmissions" so you'd load yourself up with noise as a Street Sam and still be fully capable of using your commlink to communicate but give anyone trying to hack your gear like a -10.  That, however, doesn't make any amount of sense.

[Cronstintein]

My interpretation of those two paragraphs on page 128 where it speaks of specializing and then buying is:
 the second paragraph is then going into a deeper description of what it means when you are specializing in a martial art.  Ie: you are buying it for 7 karma and getting 1 of 6 techniques along with it.

However, I'm willing to admit it is somewhat ambiguous and you might be right that they do have MA spec and then buying the MA style separately.  I think it was a very bad decision to give these the EXACT same costs/time as specialization if they are, in fact, separate purchases.

[EDIT:
the corollary is that we now have this nebulous Martial Arts Style entity that doesn't really fit anywhere in the character sheet.  It's not a skill, it's not a quality, wth is it?  Also there's still no reason to pick up a sword spec as the MA style can act as that spec for no additional cost.  The only difference is now you have an option to purchase a MA spec that will give you +2 on at most 5 techniques.  The MA spec in this version is not a great value proposition generally unless you've heavily invested in MA techniques.

Martial arts styles may also be selected as specializations for the normal cost of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2 bonus when using that technique

This is actually a really badly written sentence (and basically the whole cause of this debate) as it's equating a style to a technique which are clearly two different mechanical entities.  Are you sub-speccing in a technique or are you speccing in the style, giving +2 to all techniques for that style.
]


Admittedly you are getting a bit of a bargain if you are getting a weapon spec + technique at 7 karma.  It would certainly make non-MA melee weapon specs less appealing (though I think it does this with either interpretation by a varying degree).

For the record I think your emphasis of "can" and "may" is somewhat misguided, as this whole block is describing options for character generation.  How else would that be written?  You MUST use your martial arts style as a specialization in the appropriate weapon?  Obviously "can" is the natural phrasing here.  I '"may" purchase a martial art style at chargen as an unarmed specialization' is obviously describing an option I have.  I must purchase?  Doesn't make sense as taking a style is in itself optional.


~~~~~
Regarding the mirror stuff on the armor.  I never liked how you couldn't jam a commlink with noise but I guess that would be one use for it (although dumb, fluff-wise).  If you wrap your sam in mirror then he will lose his wireless bonuses due to noise anyway so I'm not sure how to really use this stuff tbh.

[Michael Chandra]

I'm going to guess that the Specialization Martial Arts no longer exists, and is replaced with Specializations for each separate Martial Arts, giving you a +2 on any technique of the style you Specialized in.

[Kincaid]

I'm going to guess that the Specialization Martial Arts no longer exists, and is replaced with Specializations for each separate Martial Arts, giving you a +2 on any technique of the style you Specialized in.

This is my working assumption as well.  The line in the BBB was essentially a placeholder.