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Complete Rules Summaries & Player Aids for all game aspects

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hayek

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« Reply #30 on: <02-16-14/1236:49> »
    • Under Sensor Tests you say: Drone/Auto-Pilot: [Model] Stealth Autosoft + [Model] Evasion Autosoft + Pilot [Handling] but it should be: Drone/Auto-Pilot: [Model] Evasion Autosoft + Pilot [Handling]  as according to the errata: "The table lists the wrong defense for drones. On the last line, change: “Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling]” to: “Pilot + [Model] Evasion [Handling]”

    The Sensor Test is definitely a typo on my part. I actually went in to update with the errata and added Evasion but accidentally didn't delete Stealth. I will update the dropbox file link.


    Believe you mean under 'Attacking Vehicles & Passengers' rather than 'Sensor Tests'. Thanks for the reference! Didn't realize that question had been addressed. The book just had the line that Drones use Pilot + "Autosoft" to defend attacks without specifying which Autosoft. I'll update the file for this as well.

    On a side note, I find this somewhat disappointing. The Evasion Autosoft is entirely useless now. A top-of-the-line Drone might have Pilot 3, Clearsight 6, and could hope to generate 3 hits on average with a Sensor test (with a Sensor Limit of 3). At best, the Sensor Lock will only match the -3 penalty you take on from the Signature Table for targetting a drone, thus giving you +0 for doing a Sensor Lock. So there's really no point in ever buying an Evasion Autosoft now if it's not used for Defense Tests. I guess it's only intended for large vehicles that don't have a -3 Signature penalty - they're the only thing in the game that would ever care about someone doing a Sensor Lock on them.

    • Resist with: Device Rating + Firewall, should be Willpower + Firewall (Page 229)

    I think you're looking at the wrong section here, as I believe these are correct. Page 3 of the Rules Summary has a section on Matrix Damage. This is resisted with Device Rating + Firewall (p. 228). The last page of the Rules Summary has a seciton on Biofeedback Damage, and states it is resisted with WIL + Firewall (as you referenced, from p. 229).

    • When you’re jumped into the drone, you make a Perception + Intuition [Sensor] Test (Page 270)
    • When jumped in, the test is Stealth + Intuition [Handling] vs. Perception + Intuition [Mental] (Page 270)

    This info is mostly in there, just not called out. Page 4 of the Rules Summary under 'Jumping-In', you'll see a section labeled 'Other notes:'. I mention that you should use [Handling] for any Physical skill tests (i.e. Sneaking), and use [Sensor] for any tests involving senses (i.e. Perception). Didn't call them out as the book did, because I found the rules you referenced above: a. somewhat redundant, as when you are jumped-in the vehicle is an extension of yourself and you use all your normal skills/tests through the vehicle as if it was you, so I feel it's a given you would make a Perception + INT test, and don't need a special rule for it. b. the valuable information these rules convey is the limits you should use. It's not stated RAW, but I feel what these rules are trying to convey fills an obvious hole in the rules - Drones/Vehicles have no Physical/Mental limits and don't have the attributes you could use to calculate (other than using Pilot for everything). Instead, i think the better approach is to just in general use [Handling] for [Physical] and [Sensor] for any perception tests. i.e. Sneaking is called out, but doesn't it make sense that if a walker drone had to make a Gymnastics test for some reason, you would use [Handling] as its limit? Understand it might not be explicitly RAW, but the Rigging rules are so woefully unclear on so many topics I felt I needed to use a little interpretation to put something together that would actually be usable.

    Now, that being said, my interpretation would leave Sneaking as a Sneaking + AGI test, rather than + INT, as the rules reference you provided explicitly states. I'll admit this is taking a little extra license, but felt justified as: a. the rules text references 'Stealth' instead of 'Sneaking' so I'm already questioning how trustworhty this reference is. b. I think Rigging is much easier to run at the table the less it deviates from normal skill tests. Having weird exceptions adds so much needless complexity to playing. For example, a Fly-Spy drone sneaks into a building and wants to snatch a datachip sitting out on a table while there's a guard nearby. Could call for a Disguise or Impersonation check to try to fly/act like a normal insect as you fly through the room, then a Palming check to land and nondiscreetly fly off with the datachip in its grasp. These tests have no special exceptions called out, so would be resolved by normal rules, (Impersonation + CHA and Palming + AGI). But then if you have to make a Stealth check on whether the guard sees you, you have to say, "Oh wait, that one skill is INT instead of the normal attribute!"... Although, you could also interpret the Stealth rules as saying "use INT for any AGI skill checks while rigging". Then you'd at least have a more universal rule, but the fact that they didn't mention a broad statement like that made me not want to put it in. So to keep things simple, I just ignored the one reference to using INT with Sneaking. Totally understand if you want to play that RAW, though (though not really RAW, as 'Stealth' isn't actually a skill).

    • Rigging: Gunnery + AGI [Accuracy +Control Rig Rating], instead of Gunnery + LOG

    Ignoring the INT piece and keeping Sneaking a normal AGI skill-check also applies to why I listed Gunnery + AGI as the Jumped-in attack pool instead of using LOG. I think, and this is all guessing at designer's intent as I found no explicit rules reference on what a jumped-in attacker would use, Rigging is supposed to be an extension of your skills in the real-world, as the vehicle becomes your body. Some of the key lines that lead me this way are on p. 264 "Movement uses a lot of different parts of your brain, as do your senses, and the control rig connects to every one of them... your control rig uses signals from your brain to control the machine, so it moves the way you want it to, so seamlessly that you might as well be one being. Acceleration, braking, maneuvering, all as easy wiggling your big toe or shifting your weight in your meat body." This makes me feel like your brain's natural ability to 'wiggle its big toe' and 'shift its weight' (i.e. your natural Agility/Reaction) is what you use to drive the vehicle while rigging.

    Again, it's all interpretation. I've followed (and posted) some of the other threads you've had about Rigging. Totally understand if you'd play it differently, using the rules info from Control Device Matrix action to interpret a precedent that any 'virtual' control should rely on LOG rather than AGI.

    • Small Drones: Come with 3 Sensor Functions: Where did you find it?

    This piece of rules work I think is actually spot on, and techincally RAW, though I had to jump through a lot of hoops to arrive at it. p. 445 says "Most vehicles and drones come factory-equipped with a sensor array", but leaves open that not all do. p. 446 Sensors table shows that a Sensor Array takes up [6] Capacity slots. Same table shows that a Wall-Mounted Housing can have up to 6 Capacity. Thus, if your vehicle/drone has as much space as a Wall-Mounted Housing, you should be able to fit (and come factory-equipped with) a Sensor Array. The Sensor Housings table right next to it shows the different Housings and the max Rating they can accomodate. I know Rating is not the same as Capacity, but I feel the table is showing an equivalency in size/space for Sensor parts on the table. It shows that Wall-mounted Device is on par with Medium Drone. Thus, I would assume a Medium or larger drone (and any vehicle) will be able to fit a full Sensor Array. The same table lists Handheld Device as being on par with 'Small (or smaller) drone'. Thus, I would assume a small/mini/micro drone can fit the equivalent of a Handheld housing. The Sensors table shows a Handheld Housing has a maximum Capacity of 3, which would allow for 3 Single Sensors. This also makes sense flavor-wise, as it seems ludicrous that a tiny Shiawase Kanmushi (the size of a small insect) could be sporting 4 different camers, 2 laser mics, a MAD scanner, and a Motion sensor all in its tiny little frame.
    [/list]
    « Last Edit: <02-16-14/1245:26> by hayek »

    hayek

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    « Reply #31 on: <02-16-14/1248:44> »
    These a pretty good. The only minus is that some of them aren't very printerfriendly. Especially the Gear one that has a gray background on all pages?

    I really wanted to make sure there was a color-coding to each different section. This makes it much easier to flip through at the table and get to the section you need, as your brain will start to associate different rules sections with different colors (mine already has). Unfortunately, there's only so many different colors, so I threw in a couple different backgrounds to help make certain sections stand out. Maybe should've given more thought to the ink budget, but hey, you only have to print them once, right?

    hayek

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    « Reply #32 on: <02-16-14/1251:25> »
    These a pretty good. The only minus is that some of them aren't very printerfriendly. Especially the Gear one that has a gray background on all pages?

    Besides the gray background (you'll find the 2 pages on the Astral Plane in the Magic summary also have gray background), are there any other issues that make them not printer-friendly? They are definitely meant to be printed, and have printed fine for me. Note, some of the pages are off-set/not centered, as they're supposed to be printed double sided, and you can then cut out the extra white space

    Daedalus

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    « Reply #33 on: <02-16-14/1254:39> »
    I think he is referring to ink costs rather than actual appearance. The grey background, or any color background for that matter, takes a lot of ink to print.

    hayek

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    « Reply #34 on: <02-16-14/1707:36> »
    I think he is referring to ink costs rather than actual appearance. The grey background, or any color background for that matter, takes a lot of ink to print.

    Understandable. Here's a link to the updated files with grey backgrounds removed:

    http://www.filedropper.com/whitebkgrounds

    Automaton

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    « Reply #35 on: <02-16-14/1735:23> »
    I think he is referring to ink costs rather than actual appearance. The grey background, or any color background for that matter, takes a lot of ink to print.

    Understandable. Here's a link to the updated files with grey backgrounds removed:

    http://www.filedropper.com/whitebkgrounds

    Okay, I offically declare you to be Awesome!  8)

    Thank you!

    Great job on the whole set, and this makes it great for my wallet too.

    raleel

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    « Reply #36 on: <02-16-14/1830:05> »
    white background files added to http://www.nordwall.org/shadowrun-reference.zip

    hayek

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    « Reply #37 on: <02-16-14/1911:25> »
    white background files added to http://www.nordwall.org/shadowrun-reference.zip

    Thanks raleel! you've been an awesome help!

    JackVII

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    « Reply #38 on: <02-16-14/1930:24> »
    On a side note, I find this somewhat disappointing. The Evasion Autosoft is entirely useless now. A top-of-the-line Drone might have Pilot 3, Clearsight 6, and could hope to generate 3 hits on average with a Sensor test (with a Sensor Limit of 3). At best, the Sensor Lock will only match the -3 penalty you take on from the Signature Table for targetting a drone, thus giving you +0 for doing a Sensor Lock. So there's really no point in ever buying an Evasion Autosoft now if it's not used for Defense Tests. I guess it's only intended for large vehicles that don't have a -3 Signature penalty - they're the only thing in the game that would ever care about someone doing a Sensor Lock on them.
    Isn't the -3 a dice pool modifier? I know it doesn't say on the chart specifically, but I think that is the intention. Thus, Pilot + Clearsight/EW - Size Modifier [Sensor] vs. Pilot + Evasion. So if a Drone had no Evasion autosoft vs. a drone w/ a R6 Clearsight autosoft, the defender would be at a 3 dice disadvantage.
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    hayek

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    « Reply #39 on: <02-16-14/1941:09> »
    On a side note, I find this somewhat disappointing. The Evasion Autosoft is entirely useless now. A top-of-the-line Drone might have Pilot 3, Clearsight 6, and could hope to generate 3 hits on average with a Sensor test (with a Sensor Limit of 3). At best, the Sensor Lock will only match the -3 penalty you take on from the Signature Table for targetting a drone, thus giving you +0 for doing a Sensor Lock. So there's really no point in ever buying an Evasion Autosoft now if it's not used for Defense Tests. I guess it's only intended for large vehicles that don't have a -3 Signature penalty - they're the only thing in the game that would ever care about someone doing a Sensor Lock on them.
    Isn't the -3 a dice pool modifier? I know it doesn't say on the chart specifically, but I think that is the intention. Thus, Pilot + Clearsight/EW - Size Modifier [Sensor] vs. Pilot + Evasion. So if a Drone had no Evasion autosoft vs. a drone w/ a R6 Clearsight autosoft, the defender would be at a 3 dice disadvantage.

    That's true, i forgot the Signature modifier applies to the Sensor Test, that makes using Sensor Targeting even more pointless. What I was referring to was the actual attack dice pool. If you use Active Sensor Targeting to attack, you get to add the hits from your Sensor test to your Attack dice pool (at best, +3 with a [Sensor] limit of 3). However, you also have to use the Signature modifier on your attack dice pool, so you'd get -3 to that. At best, your Sensor Lock will simply net out the -3 modifier you have to take for the Signature. so there's no benefit for using Sensor Targeting.

    Again, that's unless you're targeting a large vehicle with no Signature penalty (or better yet a bonus). I guess Sensor Targeting rules are only for large vehicle-to-vehicle combat.

    Michael Chandra

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    « Reply #40 on: <02-16-14/1943:26> »
    Uhm, are you stating the -3 is on the attack and not on the targeting lock?
    How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

    JackVII

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    « Reply #41 on: <02-16-14/1950:03> »
    @hayek: I don't think it works that way, at least not for Active Targeting... I am pretty sure the Signature Modifier penalties only apply to establishing (and probably maintaining) the sensor lock which is only needed to make an Active Targeting attack. For passive, it does impact it, but they you don't even need to make a Sensor Test, it just works (with the signature modifiers as a dice pool penalty). Also, note that most vehicles are going to have a modifier of 0. There are like two vehicles designated as electric in the book, from what I remember.
    « Last Edit: <02-16-14/1958:13> by JackVII »
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    hayek

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    « Reply #42 on: <02-16-14/2047:35> »
    Uhm, are you stating the -3 is on the attack and not on the targeting lock?

    @hayek: I don't think it works that way, at least not for Active Targeting... I am pretty sure the Signature Modifier penalties only apply to establishing (and probably maintaining) the sensor lock which is only needed to make an Active Targeting attack. For passive, it does impact it, but they you don't even need to make a Sensor Test, it just works (with the signature modifiers as a dice pool penalty).

    Ah, thanks for the clarification. I knew that the Signature modifier applied to attacks with Passive Targeting, but thought it applied to Active Targeting as well. The rules make much more sense now! I will update the Rules Summaries sheets as well.

    Also, note that most vehicles are going to have a modifier of 0. There are like two vehicles designated as electric in the book, from what I remember.

    True, guess I was thinking more of Drone rigging, with your typical target being another drone or a metahuman. Either way, it's moot now that you've corrected me on Active Sensor Targeting.

    JackVII

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    « Reply #43 on: <02-16-14/2103:35> »
    NP, great work on these by the way. The community owes you a debt of gratitude. now, if someone would turn them into an app for online games...
    |DTG|Place|Address in Brackets
    "Dialogue"
    PC/NPC Names
    >>Matrix/Comm
    "Astral"
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    hayek

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    « Reply #44 on: <02-16-14/2147:12> »
    NP, great work on these by the way. The community owes you a debt of gratitude. now, if someone would turn them into an app for online games...

    Thanks! So glad they've been well-received. I knew I would get plenty of use out of them, but it's great that others can, too.