[ZeConster]

Pre-errata, post-errata, or both?

[Reaver]

too many avenues of advancement to really stat out to 200 karma (MA wise)

Do they initiate? if they do, do they get PP or meta-magic?
Skills?
gear?



All of these make a difference in the final stats and effectiveness of the character, but I can see MAs being VERY versatile at 200 karma, an possibly even OP in narrow, select fields. But this gain would be measured against an adept of shaman full mages... and in their respective areas, the adept or mage will still shine. But if you consider the whole character, he's going to be in the spotlight a whole lot more.

[spuwdsda]

Wrt advancement, I would assume a reasonable level of optimisation on all three, MysAd, Mage and Adept. Same access to gear. The MysAd tries to compete with both Mage and Adept.

The MysAd shouldn't outshine the Mage or Adept, but I am not so sure about this. The way the advancement system works makes each extra die more expensive. I fear that in long term campaigns the difference will be minor. The Mage and Adept run up to advancement walls, while the MysAd nips at their heels. While the pure Mage and Adept may be technically better at their 'thing', the MysAd may have 90% of their dice pools. Critically he can be effective at both roles. The tactical synergies of this worry me.

Add in foci and dice pool differences might be truly small.

[Dracain]

Perhaps I have missed it, but what I would like is analysis on how these characters develop with Karma - rather than out-of-chargen.

How does a MysAd with 200 karma compare with his peers? Does the synergy of the hybrid make them OP in a long term campaign?

With the hotpatch they don't become OP, and they are most certainly not underpowered, but I'll go through the out of chargen character options MAs have. 

1.  The normal stuff, skills, attributes, so on, so forth. 

2.  Mage stuff, spells, foci, magic. 

3.  Initiation, which might normally go under Mage stuff, but a MA can choose to get a PP instead of a metamagic.  The PP gained though initiation is not limited in any way, so MAs can just keep initiating for PP. 

Then of course there is all the nice shiny stuff people can get for nuyen.  Foci, weapons, armor, and all sorts of other fun toys! 

Keep in mind that the skills have a much higher cap in 5e.  You cannot start with higher than 6, but it goes all the way up to 12, and skills are always a nice thing to sink karma into. 

[RHat]

If the Mystic Adept tries to compete with both the mage and adept, he will be much worse than both.

[Dracain]

If the Mystic Adept tries to compete with both the mage and adept, he will be much worse than both.

In their individual skills, then that is usually true, but depending on the build and situation, then a MA can outshine a Mage or Adept.  To use an example we discussed earlier, a Mage will cast better spells then the MA, but the MA has access to PP, and as such, can be a lot more durable, and still able to cast decent spells. 

It really comes down to what you want, a specialist, or a jack of all trades. 

[RHat]

If the Mystic Adept tries to compete with both the mage and adept, he will be much worse than both.

In their individual skills, then that is usually true, but depending on the build and situation, then a MA can outshine a Mage or Adept.  To use an example we discussed earlier, a Mage will cast better spells then the MA, but the MA has access to PP, and as such, can be a lot more durable, and still able to cast decent spells. 

It really comes down to what you want, a specialist, or a jack of all trades. 

That's not quite the question that was posed, as I understand it.  The question, if I read it properly, was as to what would happen if the Mystic Adept attempted to keep up with BOTH a Mage and Adept in their areas of specialty.  That would require buying up two sets of skills, buying/crafting and bonding both Mage foci (sustaining, power, etc.) and Adept foci (qi, weapon), buying up Magic (only benefiting the Mage side), initiating both for power points and standard metamagics...  In order to be competitive with both in their specialties, the MA would require a drastic Edge in Karma.

[Lurker37]

So a Mystic Adept starts with Magic 6 or permanently loses (6-Starting Magic) PP?

That's just not acceptable to my players - they've looked at this thread and declared we will not be transitioning to 5th Ed. 

No. it's not lose,

it's somethings you don't have because you're not spend your priory to earn them at chargen.

- Non-Awaken characters don't have magic because they're not spend priory to earn them at chargen.
They're not permanently "lose" magic.

- Adept characters can't shoot fireball because they're not spend priory to earn them at chargen.
They're not permanently "lose" ability to shoot fireball.

- Aspected Magician can't cast magic outside of their field because they're not spend priory to earn them at chargen.
They're not permanently "lose" ability to cast other magic.

- Mystic Adept with less than 6 magic can't have more than magic PP because they're not spend priory to earn them at chargen.
They're not permanently "lose" PP.

Everything has a price, chummer.

Take the following example:

A Mystic Adept PC 'Larry' starts play with magic Priority C, Essence 6,  Magic 3 and spends 15 karma to get their max 3 PP.

He did take it as a priority at chargen - he just didn't max it at chargen.

Once play begins and Larry starts earning more karma, and so long as he does not lose any essence, he can raise magic to 6 without initiating.

BUT his PP remain at 3 and he can never get those extra 3 PP that he could have bought in chargen if he started at magic 6.

We're not talking about starting off without magic, and trying to become a mystic adept post-creation. We're talking about it being possible to accidentally permanently cripple your character during creation.

Low stats or skills - even skills you do not start play with - can be increased. Negative qualities can be bought off, or positive qualities bought. Cyberware can be replaced, and new spells learned.

The Mystic Adept is the only case where an option is presented in the priority table that lets you start with a low-but-nonzero rating in something that can never be improved. In this example Larry can raise magic to 6 without initiating, but by RAW, he cannot get any more PP unless he takes them in lieu of metamagics.

The worst part is that there is no warning in the rules that this is the case - it's a trap waiting for an unaware player to fall into, thereby permanently ruining their character.

What my players want to see happening in this example is that each time Larry increases his magic rating (up to his Essence rating of 6), he should be able to buy a PP with Karma. Once he hits the Essence cap, the only way to increase magic is to initiate, and PP cannot be bought with karma from that point on.

eg. Larry initates, despite only having bought magic up to 5. He picks up a shiny new metamagic - no free PP for this grade. He then slowly raises his Magic rating up to his new limit of 7. He should still be able to spend karma to raise his total PP to 6. He cannot buy a 7th, because that magic point was only possible due to initation.

Larry then loses a point of magic. His PP drop to 5, and he cannot buy another because his limit is now 5 plus initiation.

[RHat]

I do hope that the final errata contains a more complete solution, Lurker, but in the meantime you might consider using the whole "treat as positive qualities - twice cost after chargen" bit as a houserule; it's perfectly serviceable.

[ZeConster]

The worst part is that there is no warning in the rules that this is the case - it's a trap waiting for an unaware player to fall into, thereby permanently ruining their character.

The warning is in the Magic chapter. Besides, Mystic Adepts are still better off than in 4th edition: back then, a Mystic Adept with X Magic would have to split that into Y Magic for their Magician side and (X-Y) Magic for their Adept side. Now, a Mystic Adept with X Magic has the full X Magic for their Magician side and some amount of PP.
And even if you start with 3 Magic and 3 PP, you haven't crippled yourself as much as you think you have (not really any more than a Magician who starts with a measly 3 Magic, anyway): every point of Magic you gain goes directly into your spellcasting abilities (also it boosts the Attribute Boost and Wall Running adept powers). A PP deficiency can be remedied with Qi Foci: a single PP worth of Adept powers will cost you 8 Karma and 12k¥.

You can easily houserule something if you disagree with the current mechanisms, but it's a bit silly to make the developers putting effort into making sure Mystic Adepts are balanced (and not over- or underpowered) your reason not to play 5e. Not when there's so many better reasons not to.

[Dracain]

I would say that if you want to offer the chance for MAs to buy up PP after chargen, do like RHat suggested and go the double karma route.  This option is still far better then anything MAs had in previous editions, so I am a bit curious as to why THIS would be your reason to not play 5e.