[Rainslicker]

SR5 page 278

Jimmy Two-Tone, who has a Magic Attribute of 4
and a maximum rating of 6, has decided he can’t live
without some cybereyes. To keep the Essence loss
low, he selects the Rating 1 model, which costs 0.2
Essence. His Essence is reduced to 5.8, his current
Magic Attribute becomes 3, and his maximum Magic
rating is now 5. He can get some more cyberware if
he wants, as Essence reductions do not reduce his
Magic rating again until his Essence drops below 5.

Sr5 page 279

For adepts, losing Essence is doubly dangerous
because every time your Magic attribute is reduced,
you lose an equal number of Power Points (you
have to “un-buy” powers to make up the loss)

This to me tells me if you are a Mystical Adept with a magic of 5/6 and a PP of 4. You install cyber eyes for 0.2 Essence
Your Maximum magic becomes 5, your current magic becomes 4 and your PP becomes 3.

The Every time your Magic attribute is reduced you lose and equal number of Power Points, makes that very very clear. Just as magic, PP are reduced when your maximum magic is reduced. So you would lose both and no this is not nerfed you have access to so much more then just a adept or a magician so this is a way to balance that out. Then again Mystical Adept have always been the number one MinMax awakened.

So from my view, you lose both since I think that its very clear in the rules that it states that both magic and PP are reduced when your essence is.
So... no more minmaxing Mystical adepts with some 'ware.

[Xenon]

Mystic adepts buy (pay for) their power points at step 7 of chargen; not step 3.


Step three: Choose magic or resonance SR5 p.68, p.71
Note that while adepts receive Power Points for free (equal to their Magic rating), mystic adepts do not. Mystic adepts must purchase Power Points using Karma at the cost 2 [Hot-Patch Errata'd to 5] Karma per full Power Point. The maximum number of Power Points Mystic Adepts may have is equal to their Magic rating. These points would be purchased during Step Seven: Spending Your Left Over Karma (p. 98).

Hot-Patch errata state:
 Power Points cost 5 Karma per point instead of 2 Karma per point, and may be purchased up to your starting magic rating.
 Power Points are lost as normal along with Magic Rating if you lose points of Essence.
 You do not get a Power Point automatically when you raise your Magic Rating.
 You may gain additional Power Points by choosing to take a point during Initiation instead of a metamagic ability.


It sure does look like a mystic adept may spend 5 Karma at chargen (or at post chargen - there is no mention that you can only spend karma to reach starting magic rating during chargen and step 7 during chargen obey very much to normal post chargen rules anyway...) to raise their PP up to an equal amount of their starting magic rating (this is only for the odd case they started out with a lower number of PP than their starting magic rating at chargen).

But at post chargen the only way to get additional PP beyond your starting magic rating is to initiate and select the PP metamagic ability during initiation.


Also note that -unlike a [physical] adept- a mystic adept can never have more power points than their current magic rating. I read that as if they are "maxed out" during chargen and decide to initiate they also have to spend karma to raise their magic rating if they want to benefit from the additional PP they pick instead of their metamagic....

[physical] adepts get equal amount of PP to their magic rating for free (even if they increase magic rating post chargen up to their maximum magic rating or if they initiate to get a higher maximum magic rating and then spend karma to increase their magic rating) and in addition to this they can also pick the metamagic to get more PP beyond this.

[Michael Chandra]

SR5 page 278

Jimmy Two-Tone, who has a Magic Attribute of 4
and a maximum rating of 6, has decided he can’t live
without some cybereyes. To keep the Essence loss
low, he selects the Rating 1 model, which costs 0.2
Essence. His Essence is reduced to 5.8, his current
Magic Attribute becomes 3, and his maximum Magic
rating is now 5. He can get some more cyberware if
he wants, as Essence reductions do not reduce his
Magic rating again until his Essence drops below 5.

Sr5 page 279

For adepts, losing Essence is doubly dangerous
because every time your Magic attribute is reduced,
you lose an equal number of Power Points (you
have to “un-buy” powers to make up the loss)

This to me tells me if you are a Mystical Adept with a magic of 5/6 and a PP of 4. You install cyber eyes for 0.2 Essence
Your Maximum magic becomes 5, your current magic becomes 4 and your PP becomes 3.

The Every time your Magic attribute is reduced you lose and equal number of Power Points, makes that very very clear. Just as magic, PP are reduced when your maximum magic is reduced. So you would lose both and no this is not nerfed you have access to so much more then just a adept or a magician so this is a way to balance that out. Then again Mystical Adept have always been the number one MinMax awakened.

So from my view, you lose both since I think that its very clear in the rules that it states that both magic and PP are reduced when your essence is.
So... no more minmaxing Mystical adepts with some 'ware.

You are citing a statement about Adepts, who always get a Power Point from their Magic. That doesn't mean Mystic Adepts necessarily work the same way, they might work like Initiation levels do: Those you only lose if your Magic dips below your Initiation grade.

[Beaumis]

Step three: Choose magic or resonance SR5 p.68, p.71
Note that while adepts receive Power Points for free (equal to their Magic rating), mystic adepts do not. Mystic adepts must purchase Power Points using Karma at the cost 2 [Hot-Patch Errata'd to 5] Karma per full Power Point. The maximum number of Power Points Mystic Adepts may have is equal to their Magic rating. These points would be purchased during Step Seven: Spending Your Left Over Karma (p. 98).

I missed that bit and stand corrected. Thank you for pointing this out.

This changes things. While I have to say it does feel a bit dicey, shadowrun has never done negatives and always done minimums. Zero power points - 1 power points would be zero power points. Therefore, you should be able to augment some and then buy power points. After all, you do get your magic rating reduced and that reduces your maximum power points. The difference between paying a power point you never get and not paying for it is five karma.

[Rainslicker]

You are citing a statement about Adepts, who always get a Power Point from their Magic. That doesn't mean Mystic Adepts necessarily work the same way, they might work like Initiation levels do: Those you only lose if your Magic dips below your Initiation grade.

Mystic Adepts
•    Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
•    Mystic adepts never astrally project.
•    Mystic adepts can astrally perceive if they purchase the Astral Perception adept power.
•    Mystic adepts purchase their spells/rituals/preparations in the same way as magicians.
•    Mystic adepts must purchase their Power Points with Karma (2 Karma each at character creation for a full Power Point, with a maximum number of points equal to their Magic attribute rating).
•    Mystic adepts can have any skills from the Enchanting, Sorcery, or Conjuring skill groups.

So reading this only makes me further believe that Mystic Adepts still follow the rules of an adept due to the first point. They are a combination and since no other rules tells differently they follow the rules of the Adept with the added differences that are listed. Such as they can cast spells and they have to buy PP.

And if you have magic 6 from start and initiate 2 times to get your magic up to 8 and loos 0.2 essence your magic still drops down one point.

If your Magic is reduced below your initiate grade, you lose an initiate grade right along with it.

So you will still lose magic but you do not lose initiation unless your magic drops below your initiation grade. So this makes no sense that it should use a system that is not stated in the book when its clear what happens when a magician or a adept loses a magic point.

[Michael Chandra]

But that'd mean they get a free Power Point when they raise Magic, which was errata'd as wrong. Which creates an extra difference in how they treat PP. So it stands to reason that their loss in PP may also be different.

Not to mention that even if following the rules strictly kills their PPs like that, we don't actually know if that is intended, because Adepts get a PP with their Magic so clearly lose a PP when their Magic goes down, while the Mystic Adept MIGHT have bought a PP with that Magic.

Edit: I do not understand why you talk about losing Magic despite Initiating. I never said that your Magic wouldn't go down if you take an essence loss, I simply said the Initiation grade might not go down.

[Xenon]

- It is clear that [physical] adepts lose PP when they lose magic rating
(they always have the same amount of "free" PP as they have magic rating).
- mystical adept lose PP when they lose magic rating if they have same amount of PP as they have magic rating
(mystical adepts can not have more "bought" PP than they have magic rating).



It might be or might not be true that mystical adept lose PP when they lose magic rating even if they have a lower amount of PP than their magic rating.

[Unahim]

Personally I think that MA lose 1 PP whenever they lose a point of essence. The hot patch seems to imply this (they lose a PP "as normal", normal being what? Adepts, it seems to me.) and Occam's Razor is definitely on that side too. Also, I thought it was already established that the char gen steps do not necessarily need to be taken in order? It doesn't really matter what step you buy the PP in and what step you lose the essence in. If you lose essence at any point in char gen your PP is [bought PP] - 1 to a minimum of 0.

IMHO.

[Michael Chandra]

I asked for clarification on the hot patch there and never got it, hope the official errata actually give it. RAW is clear but it also can represent an accidental wrong phrasing of a different RAI.

[Xenon]

I like to think it make most sense that Mystical Adepts always lose a point of PP if they lose a point of Magic (just like regular [physical] adepts).



Not sure what you mean that we established that we char gen steps do not nesessarily need to be taken in order. You can not spend resources to buy augmentations then spend leftover karma to raise an attribute (such as magic, for 5 Karma) and then allocate attributes from metatype / attribute priority / magic priority after that...... That would be crazy

Everyone buy their augmentations in step 6 of chargen (after you already allocated your attributes from metatype, attribute priority and magic priority -but before you raise your attributes with leftover Karma) and Mystical Adepts buy their PP with leftover Karma in step 7 of chargen.

[Agonar]

I like to think it make most sense that Mystical Adepts always lose a point of PP if they lose a point of Magic (just like regular [physical] adepts).



Not sure what you mean that we established that we char gen steps do not nesessarily need to be taken in order. You can not spend resources to buy augmentations then spend leftover karma to raise an attribute (such as magic, for 5 Karma) and then allocate attributes from metatype / attribute priority / magic priority after that...... That would be crazy

Everyone buy their augmentations in step 6 of chargen (after you already allocated your attributes from metatype, attribute priority and magic priority -but before you raise your attributes with leftover Karma) and Mystical Adepts buy their PP with leftover Karma in step 7 of chargen.

Except that you can spend Karma on Exceptional Attribute in the Qualities Step [Step 4], and then spend points from your Metatype [Step 2] to start with an Attribute 1 point higher than your Racial Maximum..  If these steps can be done out of order, or gone back to after the fact, I see no reason other steps cannot be tweaked as well.

[KraakenDazs]

Yeah, but it is mentionned in the examples, that with the GM's approval, you can ''keep'' a point if you're planning on things like exceptionnal quality.

But nowhere does it mention that with PPs, nor any mention of having a ''Debt'' of -1 PP. (I guess the bottom line here depends on his you believe zero to be a limitant, or if you allow going into negative PPs.)

by RAW (and to be fair, its often flawed.) , and from what i gather you could get your magic rating of 6, get yourself some cheap datajack, drop to magic 5 in step 6, AND buy 6 pps in step 7...thus giving you an essence ''buffer'' to get more cyberware without losing essence of PPs n the future. -_-'

Of course,all with GM pproval, and not sure how that would pan out, especially ifyou ask him nicely for exceptionnal attribute before

[Zar]

I always got the impression that the Karma cost per Power Point was a CharGen Tax and that if a Mystic Adept gained Magic in any way that they got the power point for free.  If anything I would think that they could purchase the Power point for 5 points up the their Maximum Magic score anytime.  If that is the case, then  they wouldn't lose any Power Points until their Essence bit into the level of Magic they have the power points for because the Magic score would determine their maximum.

[KraakenDazs]

I always got the impression that the Karma cost per Power Point was a CharGen Tax and that if a Mystic Adept gained Magic in any way that they got the power point for free.  If anything I would think that they could purchase the Power point for 5 points up the their Maximum Magic score anytime.  If that is the case, then  they wouldn't lose any Power Points until their Essence bit into the level of Magic they have the power points for because the Magic score would determine their maximum.

Thought so too, but rulewise, its not as clear. Magic section says magic adepts can get PPs in only two ways, Raising their Magic Score, or Initiation.

The 2 karma thing is ONLY in the character creation process, and everywhere mentionned, it says something akin to ''During character creation, the MA can spend 2 karmas...'' etc, etc.

Of course, the 2 karma thing was hotfixed to 5, and the ''get PPs through raising magic'' for MA was temporary errata'ed to ''Through Initiation only'', so make of that what you will.

[ZeConster]

I always got the impression that the Karma cost per Power Point was a CharGen Tax and that if a Mystic Adept gained Magic in any way that they got the power point for free.

Actually, this gap did exist in the original rules (which is what led to the whole "Mage+" thing: a Mystic Adept could, at the expense of losing Astral Projection and only being able to get Astral Perception for 1 PP, advance post-chargen in the same way that a pure Magician did, while also getting a free Power Point whenever they raised their Magic). However, in the hot patch errata they changed it so Mystic Adepts pay 5 Karma per PP instead of 2, and no longer get a free Power Point when they raise their Magic post-chargen.

If anything I would think that they could purchase the Power point for 5 points up the their Maximum Magic score anytime.

The book says there are only 2 ways to gain Power Points post-chargen: 1 is by raising Magic (which the hot patch errata removes for Mystic Adepts), the other is as a metamagic when Initiating. Spending Karma isn't named, and the list is exhaustive.