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Spirit Power: Immunity (Errata Please)

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RHat

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« Reply #15 on: <08-08-13/0201:58> »
I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that I wouldn't call it easily accessible.  Let's take a quick rundown:

- Exceptional Attribute: Generally not the greatest investment outside of edge-case builds that are literally all about magic, such builds hardly make for a good design benchmark, and in general they should be getting a lot of mileage from this thing that they're all about.
- 1 special attribute point must be available and dedicated towards Magic, and that's assuming you take Magic A; things get worse if you don't
- 9 Attribute points must be spent directly towards your Drain attributes, leaving less to spend on things that many mage builds would consider important (such as Intuition and Reaction).
- Specializations don't exactly seem like a wise chargen investment under SR5 priority.

That's the point I'm making.  All that said, the 3:1 ratio isn't really all that useful here, because we need to bring into account the "swing" - which is especially notable for a character that intrinsically has less Edge to work with.  About 35% of the time, for example, the spirit gets at least 4 hits, forcing the mage to handle 8P+ damage - like getting shot before the fight's even started.  And because that damage cannot be healed by anything but your regular healing process (no Heal spell, no First Aid, nada), it's gonna be with you for a while.
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Chrona

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« Reply #16 on: <08-08-13/0213:58> »
Chrona - That's fine if that's how you GM, but per the RAW, spirits will fight in combats for the summoner for one service.  If the GM wants to follow the rules, they should not arbitrarily say the spirit will not fight for the summoner.  Also, even with background counts spirits are over powered.

 I don't believe what I said counts as a GM "arbitrarily" deciding anything, only making sure Spirits are characters and not tools. I think you misunderstood my intent. Are spirits powerful? Yes, definitely. Will they enjoy being dragged from their home to kill a bunch of people for you all the time? No. I agree, once summoned they are forced to follow the tasks set by the mage, including fighting in combat. But the orders you can give spirits usually leave the details to them and a Spirit will not like it if you keep using them as disposable back up. Setting the whole building on fire will still achieve "kill them", help us in this battle may mean it just waits for its chance to chance a decisive blow, not sling powers around every turn while being a bullet sponge for you. It might not be same as asking a contact for help, but eventually the metaplanes will reach back to the mage and what happens then will depend on how they've been treating their spirits.
Finally, anyone in universe knows shooting a spirit wont go well. That's why they'll be shooting the summoner as much as possible.

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #17 on: <08-08-13/0549:29> »
Okay, let's see... We're going with 11 Drain Dice, I assume 10 physical boxes and a Force 13 spirit? So the spirit rolls 13 dice, the spellcaster 15... I'd run a program to check out the odds at different services levels, but let's just look at the drain. I'm using AnyDice for this, so anyone can doublecheck the math if they want to.

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So I need the higher of 0 and the drain resist, which would be 2x(13d{0,0,1}) - 11d{0,0,1}... 3/4 of 3P or more, 4/9 of 6P or more, 3/17 of 9P or more, 1/9 of going k.o., very minimalistic chance at dying. The Mage will really take some pain on this, making them rather vulnerable for enemy gunfire, and they got a fair but low chance at the Spirit berserking instead.

AnyDice: output [highest of 0 and (2*(13d{0,0,1}) - 11d{0,0,1})]

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Now let's add Edge. Assume the spellcaster has less than 5 Edge so he uses rerolls for both his conjuring and his drain resistance. The spirit has an Edge of 7 on a dicepool of 13, so he'd be better off exploding (average 8 hits instead of 7.22). So let's take 20 exploding dice *2P damage vs 11 rerolled dice on the drain resist. Averages calculated beforehand bring us to 10P but let's actually check the math.
I also need to make sure AnyDice only explodes the 6s, which is done by using 100 and 101 instead.

AnyDice: set "explode depth" to 10
output [highest of 0 and (2*(20d [explode d{0,0,0,0,100,101}]) - 11d{0,0,100,0,0,100,100,100,100})]


This gives me an average of 10002.78 which pretty much translates to about an average of 10P. I assume the Mage has Body 4, but let's be nice and assume Body 5. So 11P is K.O. and summoning failed, 17P is dead. In other words, any value at 1100+ is a failed summoning and any value at 1700+ is a dead summoner.

4/7 on not going K.O. 3/7 on going K.O. or worse. And keep in mind going K.O. means the very powerful spirit gets to break free and turn against the arrogant bastard's party. A bit less than 1/7 chance of dying. So in other words: 4/7 success, 2/7 failure, 1/7 death. And that is after consuming 2 Edge.

At Body 4 the odds were 50% success, 21% dying, 29% failure by the way.

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Now let's toss our Body 5 Mage against a Spirit of merely Force 10. That's 15 exploding dice. Success chances are now about 9/11, dying chance is a mere 1/35th. But a Spirit of this level is doable (though heavy) for enemies, it still fails ~20% of the time (18% but who's counting), the dying chances are not THAT bad (10 of these summons only are 1/4 chance of dying, so if you only do 10 of them during your career you'll be FINE), so it's almost at the level where a normal mage can do it just fine. Oh and you got 50% of taking less than 6P damage and being halfway death thanks to damage that cannot be healed in any way except days of resting.

AnyDice: set "explode depth" to 10
output [highest of 0 and (2*(15d [explode d{0,0,0,0,100,101}]) - 11d{0,0,100,0,0,100,100,100,100})]


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Now let's take a competent and smart summoner. Assume 19 drain dice and a Body of 9. In other words, K.O. at 13P, dead at 23P. The odds are 1/30 chance at going K.O. and 1/2000 at dying. Oh, and only 1/4 chance of taking at least 6P drain. In other words, for this summoner, if he edges his drain roll vs an edging spirit, he can manage a Force 10 just fine.
A force 13 is at 1/7 K.O. chances, so a summoner who does this often will knock himself out and let lose a really dangerous enemy on his party once every seven times. Oh, and we're at 50% odds of taking at least 6P drain. And he has to cast 3 Support Spells, meaning he'll have to use 3 Spell Slots and reagents (a mere 320 nuyen if he rolls his 4+ hits) to do this without Focus Addiction, and he still has to use up 2 Edge, one for the Summoning and one for the Drain roll.

AnyDice: set "explode depth" to 10
output [highest of 0 and (2*(15d [explode d{0,0,0,0,100,101}]) - 18d{0,0,100,0,0,100,100,100,100})]
set "explode depth" to 10
output [highest of 0 and (2*(20d [explode d{0,0,0,0,100,101}]) - 18d{0,0,100,0,0,100,100,100,100})]


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In other words: If we're functioning under the assumption you can Edge both the Summoning and Drain roll, and functioning under the suggested "Spirits above certain Force always use Edge to resist the Summoning" houserule, then even a really clever Summoner will still hurt like hell doing this, at a big price. Meanwhile, the given sample summoner would only do this as Do Or Die, and even a Force 10 would not be something he wants to summon often.

 If the problem is high Force Spirits being summoned out of chargen, the solution lies in letting the Spirit use an edge point to explode its counter-Summoning dice. Afterwards it has a fair to good chance at going berserk and attacking the knocked-out arrogant summoner and his party, likely resulting in a TPK.

Now someone cocky enough to summon significantly above his Force MUST consume 1 or 2 Edge Points on it, as well as have a significant risk at the spirit going haywire. If they get way above their head, they are at a significant dying risk. And even the most-prepared Summoner (5 Body, 6 Willpower, 5 Drain Stat, 3 Sustaining Foci Force 1, 3 Increase [Attribute] Spells cast with 320+ nuyen in reagents) will have a hard time swallowing the drain damage and not dare to touch that Force 13 unless he really has to.

So those would be my objective numbers, and a simple GM solution to the matter: "Any Spirit with its Force above your Magic WILL use Edge to resist the Summoning."
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Crunch

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« Reply #18 on: <08-08-13/0921:29> »
Chrona - That's fine if that's how you GM, but per the RAW, spirits will fight in combats for the summoner for one service.  If the GM wants to follow the rules, they should not arbitrarily say the spirit will not fight for the summoner.  Also, even with background counts spirits are over powered.

This will be my last post on this subject as I'm not interested in trading posts with people who do not look at the numbers objectively.  I hope that he developers see the gross imbalance of spirits and implement the proposed errata.

I'm afraid that you are missing an important point here. If your GM is letting PCs run there own spirits he's breaking RAW. Yes, fighting the enemy is one service, but if the Mage wants to provide anyother instructuion (like geek the mage, or use Engulf on that guy) that can run to additional services.

If you're looking at the numbers without taking that into account, then you're not looking at them objectively.

Lysanderz

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« Reply #19 on: <08-08-13/0959:31> »
Hehehehe, orichalcum bullets. Best house rule item ever. At my last check Ori tends to be dual natured (I could be very wrong about that) and you mix that with a little lead and suddenly you have spirit-killer rounds. I think my group charges like 500 per 10 rounds (avail: 14R) but so so so worth it in the long run. Load them into a Ruger super war hawk and call it a day.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #20 on: <08-08-13/1001:07> »
Eh. I prefer simple 25-nuyen Anti-Tank Rounds in a Sniper Rifle. At least those are useful against all enemies.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #21 on: <08-08-13/1103:11> »
Chrona - That's fine if that's how you GM, but per the RAW, spirits will fight in combats for the summoner for one service.  If the GM wants to follow the rules, they should not arbitrarily say the spirit will not fight for the summoner.  Also, even with background counts spirits are over powered.

This will be my last post on this subject as I'm not interested in trading posts with people who do not look at the numbers objectively.  I hope that he developers see the gross imbalance of spirits and implement the proposed errata.

I'm afraid that you are missing an important point here. If your GM is letting PCs run there own spirits he's breaking RAW. Yes, fighting the enemy is one service, but if the Mage wants to provide anyother instructuion (like geek the mage, or use Engulf on that guy) that can run to additional services.

If you're looking at the numbers without taking that into account, then you're not looking at them objectively.
I think the point is if you have to play genie wish word games to balance something it isn't balanced. The game would be better served by just balancing it in the first place.

Kincaid

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« Reply #22 on: <08-08-13/1121:48> »
I confess I haven't looked over the magic chapter extremely closely, but none of the types of spirits summoned by PCs (pp. 303-04) have Immunity listed as a optional power.
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Galrohir

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« Reply #23 on: <08-08-13/1133:23> »
They don't, but they all have Materialization as a default power, and Materialization confers Immunity to Normal Weapons when materializing.

Ryo

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« Reply #24 on: <08-08-13/1159:20> »
Summoning above Magic is designed to be an option of last resort. You do it out of desperation, not as a modus operandi. Somebody who does this as their default strategy is breaking the game, yes, but not the way you think. The GM can easily defeat it, and then he kills your character for being annoying and ruining everybody else's fun.

First problem with your assumption is that you gave Exceptional Attribute to Magic. Exceptional Attribute requires GM approval, and if your plan is to summon Force 13 and Force 14 spirits out of chargen, I doubt the GM will give you that approval.

Secondly, while it is technically possible to summon such a spirit out of chargen, you have to devote your character entirely to summoning, and suck everywhere else, to do it. The spirit is easily defeated by the GM, and focusing so heavily on a twink build like this means your mouth is writing checks your ass can't cash. He uses one of many, many easy ways to remove your spirit from being issue, and then you get killed by any number of options he can throw at you, because you're fragile as hell without the spirit that your build is devoted to.

Kincaid

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« Reply #25 on: <08-08-13/1214:23> »
They don't, but they all have Materialization as a default power, and Materialization confers Immunity to Normal Weapons when materializing.

Gotcha--that seemed like a strange change from previous editions.  A reasonable GM who would never have a crew of elite runners without magic backup.  If the PCs are rolling 19 drain dice with a Body of 9, they probably aren't getting hired to evict some local gangers (and they probably aren't summoning a Force 10+ spirit to do it).  The kind of opposition those people run against almost always have a caster.

At the end of the day, a Force 10+ earth spirit should be able to tear through a half dozen cops, who will instantly call in astral backup when they see it.  The problem the runner faces is what happens when all of the magical detectives in Lone Star start spending their time tracking down the guy who killed 6 of their buddies.

As Ryo points out, this is a remarkably unfun concept.  You basically spend the entire game with 4-6 boxes of damage and are a one trick pony.  And it's a trick that's so fantastically unsubtle that the rest of your team is going to get angry.  You're basically playing a magic grenade.

And no sane person would ever undertake an action that he knew had a 5% chance of killing him unless there was no other option.  He certainly would not do it for a 6.000 nuyen payday barring some outrageous circumstance.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #26 on: <08-09-13/0540:17> »
I made 1 mistake with the competent summoner by the way: I assumed it'd be possible directly out of chargen with Rating 1 Sustaining Foci and Reagents, but Increase Attribute MUST be cast at the attribute's value as Force, so it'd be more expensive (or require a second mage) to boost your stats without penalties when summoning.

Anyway, I like the idea of the spirit using Edge to resist the summoning because he looks down at you. It makes it Roulette and consume Edge, so raises the cost and hurt to the point where it's not a default weapon.
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Daedalus

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« Reply #27 on: <08-09-13/1200:17> »
I made 1 mistake with the competent summoner by the way: I assumed it'd be possible directly out of chargen with Rating 1 Sustaining Foci and Reagents, but Increase Attribute MUST be cast at the attribute's value as Force, so it'd be more expensive (or require a second mage) to boost your stats without penalties when summoning.

Anyway, I like the idea of the spirit using Edge to resist the summoning because he looks down at you. It makes it Roulette and consume Edge, so raises the cost and hurt to the point where it's not a default weapon.
Michael I believe you are one of the freelancers correct? So your opinion actually has some weight with the OP and myself. We have a rotating judge game. Because of that we play by RAW or RAI if it can be backed up by Developers. Are you saying that spirits using edge on summoning is RAW or is that a houserule. If it is a houserule please remove it from your calculations as is an assumption that does not globally apply.
Also a mage that would pull this off is likely waiting around a corner or will be experienced enough in the practice to have other defenses like Imp Invis. sustained(foci) to avoid notice.
I cannot locate any reference to spirits breaking free in SR5. Can you please give me a Pg #. I was hoping it existed, but could not find anything.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #28 on: <08-09-13/1206:36> »
Ohnono, I am not a freelancer. O_O I only am a demo agent, which means I am allowed to officially organize and GM Living Campaign events and get credits for it. I am not marked as one either.

My calculations noted near the end that I added the Edge houserule people suggested in an earlier discussion.

Spirits breaking free is something I got mistaken on, I forgot that wasn't in Core in SR4 either.

Anyway, the reason I added that suggested houserule was to indicate there's way better ways to compensate for this trick than nerfing Spirits.
« Last Edit: <08-09-13/1212:44> by Michael Chandra »
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Kincaid

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« Reply #29 on: <08-09-13/1215:35> »
I made 1 mistake with the competent summoner by the way: I assumed it'd be possible directly out of chargen with Rating 1 Sustaining Foci and Reagents, but Increase Attribute MUST be cast at the attribute's value as Force, so it'd be more expensive (or require a second mage) to boost your stats without penalties when summoning.

Anyway, I like the idea of the spirit using Edge to resist the summoning because he looks down at you. It makes it Roulette and consume Edge, so raises the cost and hurt to the point where it's not a default weapon.
Michael I believe you are one of the freelancers correct? So your opinion actually has some weight with the OP and myself. We have a rotating judge game. Because of that we play by RAW or RAI if it can be backed up by Developers. Are you saying that spirits using edge on summoning is RAW or is that a houserule. If it is a houserule please remove it from your calculations as is an assumption that does not globally apply.
Also a mage that would pull this off is likely waiting around a corner or will be experienced enough in the practice to have other defenses like Imp Invis. sustained(foci) to avoid notice.
I cannot locate any reference to spirits breaking free in SR5. Can you please give me a Pg #. I was hoping it existed, but could not find anything.

Spirits have an Edge rating, they just don't use it once they're summoned.  There's no reason to think that they wouldn't use it before being successfully summoned.
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