[Carmody]

Hi all,

I saw in many discussion topics that there is no defense roll against grenades or indirect area of effect combat spells.
However, this is not how I read the rules. I would like to know the understanding of other people, and ideally a ruling from one of the authors 

According to the grenades section p. 181, there are 3 types of detonation device:

1/ built-in timer: in that case I understand that there is no defense roll, however the grenade will stay in place for some time before exploding, and most characters may be able to move.

2/ motion sensor: see below the exact explanation from SR5 (emphasis mine)

Once armed (about a second after the sensor is activated) the grenade explodes after any sudden stop or change in direction, meaning hitting the wall, floor, or target. This method uses the standard Ranged Attack rules but adds an extra step if it misses the target (no net hits on the attack roll).

Given that this method uses the standard Ranged Attack rules, and given that those rules include a defense test (using Reaction + Intuition), I assume it is possible to defend against grenades.
My understanding is that for area-of-effect indirect combat spells, the same applies.

Furthermore, in the Defending in combat section (p. 188), there is a specific modifier for grenades & AOE indirect spells (once again, emphasis is mine):

Targeted by an Area-Effect Attack
Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect.

Why would this modifier even exist if it was never to be used?

3/ Wireless link: this one is more tricky. I do not really know how to manage it.

[Xenon]

3/ Hacking?

[Michael Chandra]

Not an option as far as I know. If they have the grenade ready in their hand, all they have to do is arm it with a Simple, then throw it with a Simple and make it boom with a Free. Meanwhile, people claimed the Grenade Launcher auto-primes the wireless grenades so they cannot be hacked before being fired.

And the non-dodge debate comes from Bull explicitly stating that aiming at a location cannot be dodged by people, no matter what.

[Carmody]

Thank you for your answer Michael

And the non-dodge debate comes from Bull explicitly stating that aiming at a location cannot be dodged by people, no matter what.

So it is assumed that the "target" character knows that the grenade is not launched at him but at the tiny rock between his feet and therefore decide not to move? 
Do you have a link to this discussion?

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah I consider that answer balooney myself, since even the SR4 FAQ says that aiming at a location is not aiming at a person, so the people still get their dodge test. He also claimed 3+ grenades does not do stacking damage anymore, but that apparently wasn't that supported by the rules.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11290.msg208685#msg208685

[ZeConster]

#3 is exactly why I dislike the grenade rules so much - unless you're spread out properly, combat is all but decided by the first person with a grenade launcher to get their turn, but if the players ever use grenade launchers of their own, it's apparently the GM's duty to start giving all the enemies grenade launchers.
What's even more silly is that the Missile Parry Adept power specifically lists Grenades as things you could intercept (which theoretically puts you a "but I can throw it away - not at an enemy, just away - as an Interrupt action, can't I? *puppy-dog eyes at GM* away from being able to evade #3), except it states you get a bonus to your defense roll and catch the projectile if you get net hits, and there's no defense roll against grenades.

[Mäx]

I saw in many discussion topics that there is no defense roll against grenades or indirect area of effect combat spells.

The example on page 283 clearly states that the enemies get hits to reduce wombat net hits, but annoyingly doesn't mention at all what they throwed to get those hits

[Carmody]

Thanks Michael for the link, I went to read Bull's argument, and they do make sense: it is not really possible to dodge a 10 meters area of effect grenade.

If I push the analysis on step further, for the second option (motion sensor):
   - a character is able to react to a bullet being fired at her, there is no reason she is not able to react to a slower grenade
   - a character cannot do a 10 meters jump to fully evade a grenade!
   - the ability of the attacker to throw the grenade at the exact intended position does not depend on the ability of the defending character to dodge
The way I would use the rules, taking the previous 3 points into account and with a lot of personnal interpretation is:
   - the attacker does a simple Agility + throw grenade (3) test. The exact landing point of the grenade (with or without scatter depending on the number of success) is found out.
   - based on the landing point (i.e. explosion point) of the grenade, the base damage of each character in the area of effect is computed.
   - the characters that are aware of the grenade can try to defend (taking cover, covering themselves, the gamemaster can be allowed to forbid a character to defend if there is no way he can protect himself). The defense test is Reaction + intuition, each hit reduces the damages by 1.

What do you think about that?

[Mäx]

it is not really possible to dodge a 10 meters area of effect grenade.

Actually if you haven't moved, it should be easy, they did after all turn combat movement into teleportation.

[Xenon]

If it don't detonate before it is your action phase...

[Mäx]

If it don't detonate before it is your action phase...

Moving doesn't actually take anykind of action what so ever

[ZeConster]

I thought you could only move during your action phase?

[Mäx]

I thought you could only move during your action phase?

Propaply, but thats beside the point.
The point was that being able to dodge 10m radius explosions is quite in line with how the new movement rules work.

[Xenon]

I thought you could only move during your action phase?

This.

And if you want to run you also need to take a free action (also during your action phase).

No problem to run out of the blast area unless thrower can detonate it before you get to act. Movement is not an interrupt action.

[lightknight]

pg 181

Projectiles
Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing
weapons. Some special rules also apply.

pg 188

Ranged defense
A defender has two choices for defending against
ranged attacks. The defending character can perform
the standard Reaction + Intuition Test for free. The defender
can also choose to go on Full Defense (p. 191)
and decrease his Initiative Score by 10 to gain a bonus
on their Defense Test equal to their Willpower for the
whole Combat Turn.
See Active Defenses (p. 190) for example.

By rules as written, you get to defend against grenade attacks.  Besides, like it makes sense that you get to "dodge" bullets for free but not grenade blasts.