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Question about hacking runners networked through their decker/rigger

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Xenon

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« Reply #45 on: <10-05-19/1202:38> »
As I read it;


For example if you are in in Seattle and doing Matrix stuff on the DeeCee grid, "where" is your Persona?
Your persona is either in the matrix, inside a host or disconnected from the matrix.
The 'virtual' distance doesn't really seem to matter.



This was more important in 5e, where there was the written rule "you automatically spot every Icon in a 100m radius" (which doesn't appear to have made it to 6e - for better or worse), but it can very much play a part in Sixth World.
It doesn't matter if your matrix persona is in DeeCee or in Seattle or if I am currently in Berlin, Tokyo or Seattle.

If we are both on the matrix (or inside the same host) then I can see your persona and I can interact with your persona. If your PAN is running silent then I first might need to take an opposed matrix perception test to spot you but that's it.



Does your Persona "move" to DeeCee?  Is the DeeCee grid "pulled" to your deck?
As long as your persona is in the matrix (on a grid, any grid - as long as it is not currently inside a host) then 'noise due to distance' will always be measured from your physical hardware (or your physical body in the case of a technomancer using her living persona).

But "where" your matrix persona currently is have little or no importance.
'Travel' from one place in the matrix to another is instant.


Think of it as 2019 internet for a second. It doesn't really matter if you are logged into your steam account from your home computer in Seattle or if you are currently playing Killing Floor 2 on a server in Berlin. Or if you travel to Tokyo and connect your steam account on an internet cafe. I will still see that you are online and I can still chat with you. Distance doesn't really matter (except that being in Seattle while playing on a server in Berlin will cause 200+ latency which in Shadowrun will act as a negative dice pool modifier unless you have sufficient noise reduction).



My personal opinion is that a device in a PAN "spawns" a second - smaller - Icon when the device leaves an indeterminate radius from the Persona that is holding it.
Example:  If you have your Daihatsu-Caterpillar Horseman in your PAN, after you step - say - 1m away from it it reverts to having it's normal Icon again and has a smaller copy in your Persona.
The device will still have a device icon of its own, no matter if it is slaved or not.
Slaved or not an observer will also automatically spot the icon (unless it is trying to hide).
The 'virtual' distance between the device and the commlink doesn't really matter.



The only reason I think that is because I find it hard to fathom that the Horseman would be Icon-less when parked two blocks away while you are having dinner in a restaurant.
The horseman would still have an icon in the matrix that you may interact with.

If the horseman is not part of a 'network' then it would have a bigger icon floating around on its own. As long as you are on the matrix (rather than inside a host or not on-line at all) it seem as if you don't need to take a test to spot its icon (even if you are physically on the other side of the world?).

If the horseman is part of the owners 'network' and the owner is not running silent then its icon would look like a smaller device icon together with all other devices part of the owners 'network'. But as long as you are on the matrix you still don't need to take a test to spot the specific icon of the horseman. Your character will probably not be confused about this 'virtual distance' of two blocks between the physical device and the PAN icon nor the fact that the device icon not floating next to the physical device. The matrix is very helpful and will let your character know that this is in fact the device icon of the physical device. If you wish to know the exact physical location of a device you need to have Admin access on the 'network' and successfully take the Trace Icon action (but if you already know where the device is physically located, perhaps because you are physically looking at the device, then you of course don't need to trace its virtual icon back to this location).

If the device is part of the owners 'network' and the owner is currently running silent then you will not automatically spot the device icon (same as if the device is not wireless enabled or if it is shutdown or otherwise disconnected from the matrix). In this case you need to take a matrix perception test. If you tie or get net hits then you will notice the device (or rather the owners 'network' with all his slaved devices, including the device icon of the horseman). If the device is not wireless enabled or if it is shutdown or otherwise disconnected from the matrix then your matrix perception test will automatically fail (but your character will probably not know if the reason was that he simply failed to find the silent running 'network' the device was attached to or if the device is not connected to the the matrix at all).

If you are very far away you might take a negative dice pool modifier when interacting with the device. The distance is measured between the actual physical device and your actual physical commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack, RCC or physical body (in case of living persona) - not the 'virtual' distance between your matrix persona and the owner's personal area network.
« Last Edit: <10-05-19/1405:34> by Xenon »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #46 on: <10-05-19/1520:31> »
The 'virtual' distance doesn't really seem to matter.

If that were true, there would be absolutely no reason to have Distance Modifiers to Noise.

If I have a drone, it is connected to the Matrix, and I'm connected to the Matrix, then I would be able to pilot it from Seattle to Auckland without any Noise due to Distance.

And let;s tie that back into my previous example.

I'm sitting in Seattle, and I need to interact with the DeeCee Public Library host for some reason.
It has an actual physical host in it's building.
My Persona is standing outside, but hasn't entered yet.  (Maybe I needed to feed my cigarette addiction first.)
You are in DeeCee, and for this example let's say you have half the die pool I have for Matrix Perception.

Do we see each other?

I'm suffering a -8 penalty due to distance, right off the bat.
If you do not have 8 dice in Matrix Perception, is my Persona automatically invisible to you?  Do you check as if my Persona is right next to you?

To be clear, I'm not arguing one way or another.

In the broad strokes, it doesn't really matter to me which way it gets ruled.

It just needs to be ruled.

And that is just one simple example.  There are a ton more.

penllawen

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« Reply #47 on: <10-05-19/1544:42> »
It just needs to be ruled.
I would go further. Rules can’t explain everything. But the setting should be presented in such a way and at such a level of detail and at such a level of internal consistency that most questions of this type can be inferred from the rules that do exist. That’s what I miss - a grasp of a logical, coherent body of knowledge that doesn’t cover everything (no RPG system can) but covers enough that I can fill in the gaps myself with confidence.

ZeroSum

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« Reply #48 on: <10-05-19/1742:43> »
It just needs to be ruled.
I would go further. Rules can’t explain everything. But the setting should be presented in such a way and at such a level of detail and at such a level of internal consistency that most questions of this type can be inferred from the rules that do exist. That’s what I miss - a grasp of a logical, coherent body of knowledge that doesn’t cover everything (no RPG system can) but covers enough that I can fill in the gaps myself with confidence.
Help us, Obi-wan Ken-Banshee. You're our only hope.

On a serious note, if you have any kind of pull and are involved in any future books, I think it would be very much appreciated if you were able to add a couple paragraphs, or pages if at all possible, about how the Matrix can be perceived. Examples, if it has to be that, like those already in the Matrix chapter could benefit massively from a little more elaboration on how you all, the author and editors of the Shadowrun product line, envision the Matrix.

I'd say combat is pretty relateable for most people; I think it's fair to say from the various opinions and interpretations expressed in threads like this that some guidance on how the Matrix concept works in-setting would be highly appreciated by many.

Pretty please with NERPS on top?

Xenon

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« Reply #49 on: <10-06-19/0626:37> »
If that were true, there would be absolutely no reason to have Distance Modifiers to Noise.

If I have a drone, it is connected to the Matrix, and I'm connected to the Matrix, then I would be able to pilot it from Seattle to Auckland without any Noise due to Distance.
The 'physical' distance between your physical drone and your physical RCC will generate noise due to distance.
The 'physical' distance between your drone and my cyberdeck will also generate noise due to distance.

But the 'virtual' distance between my 'virtual' matrix persona and the 'virtual' device icon of the drone does not seem to matter.

If both your drone and my cyberdeck is in Auckland but your RCC is in Seattle then you will have noise to due distance to your drone while I will have very little noise due to distance to your drone.

If your drone is slaved to your RCC then the device icon of the drone will be attached to your PAN. One could say that you will now have a very short 'virtual' distance between your RCC and the drone while my matrix persona 'in' Seattle will have a long 'virtual' distance to your PAN - but this 'virtual' distance does not seem to matter.

You will still have a long physical distance to the drone so you will still have a lot of noise due to distance. And I will still have a short physical distance to your drone so I will still have very little noise due to distance. If you 'move' your 'virtual' matrix persona from Seattle to Auckland you will still have a long physical distance between your physical RCC and the physical drone and thus a lot of noise due to physical distance. The 'virtual' distance (where in the matrix your virtual matrix persona is in relation to another virtual icon) does not seem to matter when it comes to noise due to distance.

It also seem as if I will automatically spot the device icon of your drone if I were to look for it (unless it is part of a network that is current set to silent running). No matter if it have a device icon in Auckland or if it is slaved to your RCC and have a virtual device icon in Seattle instead. The 'virtual' distance does not matter when spotting icons either.



And let;s tie that back into my previous example.

I'm sitting in Seattle, and I need to interact with the DeeCee Public Library host for some reason.
It has an actual physical host in it's building.
My Persona is standing outside, but hasn't entered yet.  (Maybe I needed to feed my cigarette addiction first.)
You are in DeeCee, and for this example let's say you have half the die pool I have for Matrix Perception.

Do we see each other?
The 'virtual' distance between your virtual matrix persona in DeeCee and my virtual matrix persona that is also in DeeCee does not seem to matter. You will have a lot of noise due to distance between your RCC in Seattle and my cyberdeck in DeeCee.

Having said that. If you wish to spot my matrix persona then it seem as if you would automatically do so as long as we are both connected to the matrix (and none of us are inside a host). You can spot my icon in DeeCee and you can send messages to me from Seattle. I can data spike you from DeeCee. Your 'virtual' location in the matrix does not seem to matter.


I'm suffering a -8 penalty due to distance, right off the bat.
If you do not have 8 dice in Matrix Perception, is my Persona automatically invisible to you?
It does not seem as if you need to take a matrix perception test to spot an icon (unless it is trying to hide). In previous edition this would have been a simple matrix perception test (very obvious as you only need one single hit on a perception test, as obvious as a neon sign or a running crowd). But if you for example were to observe my persona in detail you would suffer 8 points of noise due to distance between your RCC in Seattle and my cyberdeck in DeeCee. The short 'virtual' distance between our two virtual icons does not seem to have any impact at all.


Do you check as if my Persona is right next to you?
As I read it this short 'virtual' distance between our icons does not seem to matter. If i were to observe your persona in detail I would still suffer 8 points of noise due to distance between my cyberdeck in DeeCee and your RCC in Seattle.