NEWS

Question about hacking runners networked through their decker/rigger

  • 49 Replies
  • 8018 Views

taukarrie

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 46
« on: <10-03-19/1135:59> »
I know that the rigger/decker's hardware is the gatekeeper of the network and that everyone becomes vulnerable once that wall has been knocked down. My question about how this looks when it happens. If Im a hacker trying to diable a streetsam's smartgun when he's in the room with me but his commlink is slaved to his rigger's RCC 100 meters away what am i seeing in AR/VR when i attempt to target this streetsam?

Lets say I discover his persona with a matrix perception check and i get a bunch of successes so i also see that his gun is currently running its smartlink so next i dataspike the gun. I dont know at this point that hes slaved on his rigger's RCC so what happens next?  do i do my dataspike against the RCC's firewall and not even realize it?  Or do i somehow know that the streetsam's commlink is slaved and that im actually cracking against an RCC 100 meters away, suddenly experiencing some unexpected noise? Is there a way to use Trace Icon to determine the location of the rigger?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #1 on: <10-03-19/1141:32> »
Mechanically: Your Dataspike resolves against the gun.  But the gun gets to substitute better values from the PAN master device and the rigger/decker's mental stats.

Visually/Thematically: Well, everyone's avatars and matrix paradigms basically follow the rule of cool. Are you Zeus, and your Data Spike looks like thrown lightning bolts? Are you Clint Eastwood and your Data Spikes are bullets from a revolver?  The same sort of questions apply to the defending persona.  Is he Captain America and throws a Shield in the way of your Data Spike?  Is he a techno-wizard and infuses the gun with a digital protective aura?  No answers are wrong; no answers are inherently correct.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

taukarrie

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 46
« Reply #2 on: <10-03-19/1149:28> »
Mechanically: Your Dataspike resolves against the gun.  But the gun gets to substitute better values from the PAN master device and the rigger/decker's mental stats.

Visually/Thematically: Well, everyone's avatars and matrix paradigms basically follow the rule of cool. Are you Zeus, and your Data Spike looks like thrown lightning bolts? Are you Clint Eastwood and your Data Spikes are bullets from a revolver?  The same sort of questions apply to the defending persona.  Is he Captain America and throws a Shield in the way of your Data Spike?  Is he a techno-wizard and infuses the gun with a digital protective aura?  No answers are wrong; no answers are inherently correct.

quite familiar with the rule of cool stuff. my main question here is if hackers become aware of their targets' matrix overwatch buddy when they try to hack those targets, even if that overwatch is not nearby. And also if that overwatch's location can be traced through the people he's slaving commlinks for

CigarSmoker

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 237
« Reply #3 on: <10-03-19/1208:09> »
I think to get a real answer for that questions we have to hope for Errata.

SR6 Core p.173 Matrix Access and PANs
[...]Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.[...]

This could mean the Hacker has first to use Brute Force to gain "User" access (which he would gain automatically on the "master Device" protecting the PAN)
With that User access he could be now an "Outsider" (Matrix Actions that allow Outsider Access) for all Devices in the PAN.

In that case your question would be answered as the Hacker can use Brute Force as well to get Admin Access on the master Device and Admin Access allows the "Trace Icon" Matrix Action.

I think that might be RAI or even RAW.

ZeroSum

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
« Reply #4 on: <10-03-19/1217:16> »
Interesting question.

The CRB only talks about PANs:
Quote
Programs and devices attached to the PAN appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona.

The question that springs to mind is; does slaving the PAN of one user to a device like a cyberdeck create a new PAN?

If the answer to that is yes, then the icons of the samurai's PAN "appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona" of the decker.

I think the answer is no, to be honest, because the samurai is still running a persona that his PAN is attached to. The icons may be hidden by virtue of being protected by the decker, but ultimately, the samurai's PAN and his icons are still attached to his persona and so would appear near the device his persona is formed on.

In other words; if someone makes a Matrix Perception Test (Electronics + Intuition) and beats their opponent (Willpower + Sleaze) then the previously hidden persona and icon(s) are revealed.

If you think of the persona as the "wireless signal" (p 178), then all a hacker is doing is obscuring that signal and hiding it in the overall data stream of the Matrix. He's not actually subverting the icon into his own persona.

Or am I massively overthinking this? I just feel that if all it takes to completely and utterly hide your icons from Matrix Perception is to slave it to a decker 1000 miles away, then the rules serve no purpose. The alternative option is to treat hiding in the Matrix like hiding in the physical world; your Stealth roll hides you while you move, but if an observer beats your roll with their Perception roll then the jig is up and you are spotted.

ZeroSum

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
« Reply #5 on: <10-03-19/1218:23> »
And also if that overwatch's location can be traced through the people he's slaving commlinks for
This definitely requires getting Admin access to the device providing the overwatch in the first place, as per the Trace Icon action on page 184.

taukarrie

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 46
« Reply #6 on: <10-03-19/1302:42> »
And also if that overwatch's location can be traced through the people he's slaving commlinks for
This definitely requires getting Admin access to the device providing the overwatch in the first place, as per the Trace Icon action on page 184.

True enough. Its just that ive heard around these forums is that hacking through the overwatch's defenses gets you access to everyone slaved to him. So if a decker is slaving his 5 teammates and you probe your way to admin status you can at that point do whatever you want with any devices used by those 5 teammates. The question I would have there is do you automatically know all wireless devices used by all of those teammates or do you have to perceive each persona to get that info. I would think if the network is designed so that the decker is the host and the teammates are considered nodes on that host you, with admin status, would know all about that particular PAN. Or maybe it makes more sense to think of each teammates as a device on the decker's PAN. Then if you want to brick someone's smartgun youre talking about attacking a device within a device..  this seemed simpler before i asked the question.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #7 on: <10-03-19/1307:01> »
Admin access is not becoming the admin.  Just because you have the proverbial keys, it doesn't mean you suddenly know everything there is to know.  Still have to do Matrix Perception, or quite possibly, Hash Checks (if you're looking for files), to discover details about devices/hosts you've hacked.

Got admin access to someone's commlink? It doesn't mean you get automatic permissions into the contact list or photo album. Access level just says whether or not you can even attempt the given matrix action. It doesn't mean anything more than that.
« Last Edit: <10-03-19/1316:21> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

taukarrie

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 46
« Reply #8 on: <10-03-19/1341:10> »
Admin access is not becoming the admin.  Just because you have the proverbial keys, it doesn't mean you suddenly know everything there is to know.  Still have to do Matrix Perception, or quite possibly, Hash Checks (if you're looking for files), to discover details about devices/hosts you've hacked.

Got admin access to someone's commlink? It doesn't mean you get automatic permissions into the contact list or photo album. Access level just says whether or not you can even attempt the given matrix action. It doesn't mean anything more than that.

So in the scenario where a decker is in a room with a streetsam and the streetsam is slaved on a rigger RCC 200 meters away.. the decker wants to hack that streetsam's commlink but has no knowledge of the rigger at all so he starts looking for that streetsam's persona with matrix perception. Since that streetsam's commlink is slaved does that mean the decker wont be able to find the persona until he figures out that theres a rigger down the street slaving it? Does the hacker find the persona as expected but just uses the rigger's firewall, remaining unaware of the rigger? Or is the persona invisible until the hacker learns about the rigger and targets him instead?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #9 on: <10-03-19/1345:06> »
It's my understanding that the only impact, mechanically, is the device's dice pool is modified by being defended.  There's no change in order of operations, who yo have to spot, and etc.  Other than the defending dice pool being different, the process is identical whether the Sammie is defended by the Rigger or not.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #10 on: <10-03-19/1353:33> »
Ok, lot of stuff to respond to here so hopefully I capture it all

Spotting ... you would be able to see the street Sam's network but also know he is part of a larger network with enough successes so you know he is defended

Access ... remember that "outisder" access is just that ... you are outside of the network so there is no need to do anything to gain it .. dataspike until your satisfied

Dataspike the gun or commlink... yes you can do so directly as long as you can detect it ... if protected by the decker/rigger it would gain the benefit of that defenders firewall defense even if it's far away ... unless they are so far away that they lose connection (ie noise)
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

CigarSmoker

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 237
« Reply #11 on: <10-03-19/1427:35> »
@Banshee

Great that just answered another question i had for a while :)   regarding how far spread a PAN can be.
But now a follow up question for the writer of the Chapter :D

With Satellite Uplinks PANs can theoretically spread over the whole world ?

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #12 on: <10-03-19/1532:53> »
@Banshee

Great that just answered another question i had for a while :)   regarding how far spread a PAN can be.
But now a follow up question for the writer of the Chapter :D

With Satellite Uplinks PANs can theoretically spread over the whole world ?

Yes, but I would rule that if connected multiple mobile networks that you need an uplink on each end I think
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

CigarSmoker

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 237
« Reply #13 on: <10-03-19/1606:06> »
Makes sense, thank you Banshee :)

Typhus

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 386
« Reply #14 on: <10-03-19/1623:06> »
Quote
Dataspike the gun or commlink... yes you can do so directly as long as you can detect it ... if protected by the decker/rigger it would gain the benefit of that defenders firewall defense even if it's far away ... unless they are so far away that they lose connection (ie noise)

Rather than track condition monitor damage, I would rather apply a Status effect to the device and simply apply a staged ongoing penalty, such as -2/-4/bricked.  Do you see any issue with that approach?  Or does that break something?