[ZeroSum]

I just realized we've all missed a pretty significant piece of equipment: good old Wired Reflexes!

With Wired Reflexes at Rating 4, you get:
+4 Reaction
+4 Initiative Dice
+4 Additional Minor Actions

When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to your Initiative Score), 1 additional Initiative Die, and 1 additional Minor Action.

This means that a Street Samurai with Reaction 3 (7) and Intuition 3 gets an initiative of 10+5d6 and 1 Major and 10 Minor Actions...

All of a sudden, the limitation of Minor Actions per player turn makes a lot more sense.

EDIT:
Yeah, this is true for the Synaptic Booster as well.

The booster confers a bonus of +1 Reaction (and accompanying adjustment to Initiative Score), 1 additional Initiative Die, and 1 additional Minor Action per point of Rating.

So at rating 3 you get +3 REA, +3d6 initiative dice (and thus 4 minor actions), and 3 additional minor actions. With the same character as above, you would have Reaction 3 (6) + Intuition 3 for an initiative 9+4d6 with 1 major and 8 minor actions.

[Xenon]

No, it just remind the reader that +4 initiative dice will give you +4 minor actions

[ZeroSum]

No, it just remind the reader that +4 initiative dice will give you +4 minor actions

I respectfully disagree.

The rule clearly states "and"; you get, and I quote, "1 additional Initiative Die, and 1 additional Minor Action per point of Rating". This is not a reminder; the initiative dice themselves give you minor actions, and so too does this piece of equipment; by straight RAW, each point of rating gives you additional initiative dice AND additional minor actions.

[Xenon]

I respectfully disagree.

You do you.

Lets talk again after the errata is out.

[ZeroSum]

I respectfully disagree.

You do you.

Lets talk again after the errata is out.

I mean, can you argue that RAW states anything else? It is quite clearly an addition through the additive property, is it not?

[Shinobi Killfist]

I respectfully disagree.

You do you.

Lets talk again after the errata is out.

I mean, can you argue that RAW states anything else? It is quite clearly an addition through the additive property, is it not?

Too many areas are in the we are looking at that or the errata team has worked on that stage for RAW to be meaningful in anyway. Especially when RAI is almost always more important anyways.

[ZeroSum]

Too many areas are in the we are looking at that or the errata team has worked on that stage for RAW to be meaningful in anyway. Especially when RAI is almost always more important anyways.

Until errata comes out, we only have RAW to go by, though. At the moment, I only see one possible reading of those two particular pieces of equipment, and the way they are written is clearly inclusive.

I will agree that errata may change it, but until such a time... Well.

[Michael Chandra]

I see no reason to read that section as anything other than a repeat of the Minor Action per Initiative Die rule. The misunderstanding is understandable, however the insistence isn't. If the intent really was for these to be extra, there would be phrasing making explicit mention of these coming on top of the Dice-minors. As such, I do not see a reason to assume there is actual intent for the augmentations to be far superior to the other sources of initiative. Your opinion that your own reading is the only correct one and anyone else is a fool incapable of parsing the rules properly, is a minority and will not fly at other tables.

[ZeroSum]

@Michael Chandra
Please do not put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I resort to personal attacks, and reducing my argument to implying that I said "if you don't agree with me you are a fool" serves no purpose other than to incite an emotional response, which is against ToS. You also cannot possibly speak for every "other table", so please refrain from making broad generalizations.

I do encourage you to argue your position as it pertains to the written rule, however. This is a rules forum, after all, and you seem to have an overall excellent grasp of the rules. I freely admit I am a newcomer, so if you have particular insights I may have missed I welcome your thoughts.

That being said, unless you have an argument backing up why your opinion is correct and mine isn't, I would kindly ask that you please also refrain from reducing one side of an argument to "a misunderstanding".

My stance on this topic is simple; the operator "and additional minor actions" is not used elsewhere when initiative dice are added, so what makes these particular call-outs different? Drugs such as Cram, Jazz, and Kamikaze, spells such as Increase Reflexes, and the Adept power Improved Reflexes make no mention of additional minor actions, only additional attributes and initiative dice.

The specific use of this wording, then could be one of three things as I see it;
1. Intended as written
2. Intended as a reminder that additional initiative dice add additional minor actions
3. A mistake
Unfortunately, we do not know what the author intended when these sections were written, at least I do not.

My argument is quite simple; Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters uniquely mention that you get bonus dice "and" additional actions.

Would you agree that it is possible, even if you think it is unlikely, that the author actually meant that these pieces of 'ware do both? If not, why?

Edit:
I forgot to mention that Wired Reflexes Rating 4 is one of the most expensive pieces of cyberware available, if not the most expensive. Again, would you agree that it is possible, even though it may be improbable, that the author intended for this gear to provide something unique at a cost of 400000 nuyen and 2/3 of your essence pool?

[CigarSmoker]

I forgot to mention that Wired Reflexes Rating 4 is one of the most expensive pieces of cyberware available, if not the most expensive. Again, would you agree that it is possible, even though it may be improbable, that the author intended for this gear to provide something unique at a cost of 400000 nuyen and 2/3 of your essence pool?

With the "Augmentation Overdrive" from p.282 they would actually be Rating VI and this would bring +6 Minor Actions and the +4 from the Initiative (that caps at 5)

But other than that i have to agree with MC, there are lots of things in the rules that are like 99% a mistake. And its kind of a "Gentleman Agreement" to ignore those mistakes.

Examples:
Adepts Power Points not dropping when Magic drops, (Actually the other one i had was  actually mentioned as i just looked)

And there are some more i dont even want to mention 

edit:
other examples are character creation not mentioning what happens with left over Karma, what actually can be bought with Karma not mentioned/everyone buys Specialisations yet it isnt listed, i didnt see anyone Submerging/Initiating at chargen yet

[ZeroSum]

With the "Augmentation Overdrive" from p.282 they would actually be Rating VI and this would bring +6 Minor Actions and the +4 from the Initiative (that caps at 5)

But other than that i have to agree with MC, there are lots of things in the rules that are like 99% a mistake. And its kind of a "Gentleman Agreement" to ignore those mistakes.

Examples:
Adepts Power Points not dropping when Magic drops, (Actually one of them is actually mentioned somewhere)

And there are some more i dont even want to mention 

I hadn't even seen the overdrive rules. Those could be... Interesting. Thanks!

Here's the thing, though; how do we know that Wired Reflexes granting both initiative dice and additional minor actions is a mistake? We can assume it is, just like Technomancers, pre-errata, having a Matrix Condition Monitor despite another section claiming that Technancers use the Stun condition monitor and that all Matrix damage (except biofeedback, presumably) is treated as Stun damage?

My point is that until we have official clarification, the only thing we have to go off of is the written word. I will be the first to concede that this very well could be a mistake, but that speaks to intent. I very well could be mistaken in this instance, but I have not seen a convincing counter-argument as to why (other than what I myself was accused of, namely stating that "You are wrong and I am right"). I've expanded upon my original argument, and I'm hopeful that we can continue to engage in rational debate.

As for intent; I cannot possibly know the mind of the author, so I have to base the rules on what is written even when there are glaring contradictions, and/or house rule the situation.

This is, in my opinion, no different than the Ruger 101 costing 11,100 nuyen. It's possible that this is a mistake, but how do I know that for sure?

EDIT:
Clarified my thoughts.

[Xenon]

Adepts Power Points not dropping when Magic drops

This might or might change. It might or might not be intended.

Magicians free spells and rituals also don't drop when Magic drops
And Adept Power Points don't increase when Magic adjusted (during chargen).

other examples are character creation not mentioning what happens with left over Karma

In all editions where you were allowed to bring over left over karma from chargen there are explicit rules explaining how to resolve this. As you note yourself, in this edition there is no mentioning about left over karma at all. In this edition you spend your Customization karma on four things (listed at SR6 p. 66 Step Four: Spend Customization Karma):

• Skill advancement
• Attribute advancement
• Resources
• Qualities

what actually can be bought with Karma ...

• Skill advancement
• Attribute advancement
• Resources
• Qualities

Skill Advancement include up to one specialization per skill (Exotic Weapon might be an exception).

Attribute Advancement include Physical, Mental attributes as well as the Edge attribute and either Magic or Resonance in case you have a Magic or Resonance priority of A, B, C or D (but not E). Only one Physical/Mental attribute may be at metatype maximum rating during chargen.

Resources may be bought at a rate of 2,000 nuyen per point of customization Karma (or 5,000 nuyen per point of customization if you have the In Dept quality).

Qualities are limited to a maximum of 6 during chargen and the net Karma gain from negative qualities and positive qualities is limited to 20 karma.


That's it really.......


Which mean you cannot spend Customization Karma to Submerge or Initiate during chargen. Or bind foci. Or buy spells / rituals / power points. Or get an expertise on a skill. Or a second specialization. etc etc.

[CigarSmoker]

Adepts Power Points not dropping when Magic drops

This might or might change. It might or might not be intended.

Magicians free spells and rituals also don't drop when Magic drops
And Adept Power Points don't increase when Magic adjusted (during chargen).

If this doesnt change it opens a huge gap between lore and rules. Take a physical Adept. Give him Priority D Magic.
He has 1 Magic 1 Power Point 6 Essence.
Game starts he raises Magic to 2 for 10 Karma, gets Cyberware, it drops to 1 again he repeats that until Magic 6 Magic 1 Powerpoint 6 Essence 0,1 need Initation now which raises cap

Then burning his Essence makes him faster, a better Adept instead of a worse one ...

----

And you cant buy 2nd Specialisation before you have Expertise in the first Specilisation. A lot of things concerning Specialisations are double or triple mentioned. Smells of Errata too ^^

edit: it would be basically magic point, initation, Cyberware, repeat until Essence down
edit2: to be more precise the Magic Maximum drops with Essence loss so he does the stunt until his essence is under 1, then he initates for 11 Karma, and then raises his Magic for the last time to 2

edit 3: tried to make my thoughts more clear ^^

edit 4: and to add to the Karma misery at char gen i only read in RAW on page 66 "[...] the points are spent on skill or attribute advancement[...]" this does or does not include Specialisations .
Next thing is if you can take Karma into Game, binding a Focus takes an hour per Force of the Focus (p.154)
 so keep 16 Karma during Char gen, spend 8 hours, Qi Focus level 8 bound .... (example!)

[Xenon]

If this doesnt change it opens a huge gap between lore and rules. Take a physical Adept. Give him Priority D Magic.
He has 1 Magic 1 Power Point 6 Essence.
Game starts he raises Magic to 2 for 10 Karma, gets Cyberware, it drops to 1 again he repeats that until Magic 6 Magic 1 Powerpoint 6 Essence 0,1 need Initation now which raises cap

Let us assume that you ended at essence 1.0 instead (so you have a max magic rating of 1 rather than 0).


Difference is not as big as you seem to think it is...


After a lot of post chargen juggling at magic rating 1 you will eventually end up with a 1 power point from chargen, a bound Force 5 Qi focus for 10 karma worth 1.25 power points and 5 extra power points from raising your magic rating a total of five times for a cost of 50 karma.

7.25 power points. 60 karma. And a lot of juggling (including waiting for your resources to catch up). No weapon focus. No initiation.


Compare this to a physical adept that start with Magic or Resonance D for an unadjusted magic rating of 1, Metatype C and walk out of chargen with an adjusted Magic rating of 6 (but only 1 power point).

In this case we will eventually end up with 1 power point from chargen and
7.5 power points from bound foci with a total Force of 30 for 60 karma.

8.50 power points. 60 karma. 5 adjustment points during chargen. No juggling. No weapon focus. No initiation.

"[...] the points are spent on skill or attribute advancement[...]" this does or does not include Specialisations .

Skill Specialization is a way to advance your Skills.
Why would not skill specialization be included in skill advancement...??

Also this:

SR6 p. 65 Skill
When using the Priority Chart, a specialization costs the same as one rank of a skill. You cannot acquire more than one specialization in a skill at character creation, and you cannot acquire an expertise.

...so keep 16 Karma during Char gen...

Unlike previous editions there are no rules in SR6 that allow you to keep any of your customization karma post chargen....

[Noble Drake]

Unlike previous editions there are no rules in SR6 that allow you to keep any of your customization karma post chargen....

Which is what means that you can carry any amount you would like to post chargen. You are explicitly given it to spend as you see fit, and not told you will lose it if you don't spend it - rules don't stay as they were in prior editions by default, they have to be stated in the new edition too or they don't exist.