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SR6 / 6E - Minor and Major actions

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gargaM0NK

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« on: <09-30-19/1320:47> »
From Combat Round on p. 107:

"The basic Action allotment for each character is 1 Minor Action and 1 Major Action per combat round. Players get 1 additional Minor Action for every Initiative Die they have.
Actions can be traded between Minor and Major, but there are restrictions. A Major
Action can be used to perform a Minor Action, simple as that. A character can also
trade 4 Minor Actions to perform 1 Major Action.
Characters may never start a player turn with more than 5 Minor Actions."

Does the trading Minor / Major actions occur before or during the turn?

If before, it would mean that players have a maximum of [Infinite] Major actions and [5] Minor actions.

If after, it would mean that players have a maximum of [2] Major actions and [1] Minor, or [1] Major and [5] minor.

ZeroSum

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« Reply #1 on: <09-30-19/1325:36> »
From Combat Round on p. 107:

"The basic Action allotment for each character is 1 Minor Action and 1 Major Action per combat round. Players get 1 additional Minor Action for every Initiative Die they have.
Actions can be traded between Minor and Major, but there are restrictions. A Major
Action can be used to perform a Minor Action, simple as that. A character can also
trade 4 Minor Actions to perform 1 Major Action.
Characters may never start a player turn with more than 5 Minor Actions."

Does the trading Minor / Major actions occur before or during the turn?

If before, it would mean that players have a maximum of [Infinite] Major actions and [5] Minor actions.

If after, it would mean that players have a maximum of [2] Major actions and [1] Minor, or [1] Major and [5] minor.
That last sentence seems to indicate that you have to choose before you act, which kind of makes sense. When it comes time for your character to declare their turn, they would have to choose how to allocate their actions, including whether or not to trade up or down.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <09-30-19/1332:18> »
Remember that a Player Turn only begins what that player (or NPC) is "up" in initiative order.

If you begin a Combat Round with 1 Major and 6 Minors, yes when your Player Turn comes up you drop down to 1 Major and 5 Minors.  However, if you use an anytime Minor between the start of the Combat Round and the start of your Player Turn (perhaps you Dodged an attack...) you still have 1 Major and 5 Minors, and so you don't lose any when your Player Turn begins.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

gargaM0NK

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« Reply #3 on: <09-30-19/1347:49> »
If you begin a Combat Round with 1 Major and 6 Minors, yes when your Player Turn comes up you drop down to 1 Major and 5 Minors.  However, if you use an anytime Minor between the start of the Combat Round and the start of your Player Turn (perhaps you Dodged an attack...) you still have 1 Major and 5 Minors, and so you don't lose any when your Player Turn begins.

So then, if you begin a combat round with 1 Major and 6 Minors, can you trade 5 of the Minors for 1 Major and 2 Minors, or does the limit on starting with more than 5 occur first, giving you 1 Major and 1 Minor?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <09-30-19/1352:26> »
My understanding is that trading minors in for a major is not an "anytime" activity. Ergo, you can't do It until your Player Turn begins, and by then you're down to your cap of 5 minors.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

gargaM0NK

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« Reply #5 on: <09-30-19/1359:05> »
Perfect - thanks!

penllawen

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« Reply #6 on: <09-30-19/1401:59> »
My understanding is that trading minors in for a major is not an "anytime" activity. Ergo, you can't do It until your Player Turn begins, and by then you're down to your cap of 5 minors.
Is that supported by RAW? I can't see any definition one way or the other.

Your interpretation means characters could not do two Anytime Major actions before their turn happens. For example, they couldn't engage Full Defence and then Intercept. Yet they can do one Anytime Major and any number of Anytime Minors before then. This feels like an arbitrary and unintuitive limitation.
« Last Edit: <09-30-19/1405:26> by penllawen »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <09-30-19/1411:50> »
My understanding is that trading minors in for a major is not an "anytime" activity. Ergo, you can't do It until your Player Turn begins, and by then you're down to your cap of 5 minors.
Is that supported by RAW? I can't see any definition one way or the other.

Your interpretation means characters could not do two Anytime Major actions before their turn happens. For example, they couldn't engage Full Defence and then Intercept. Yet they can do one Anytime Major and any number of Anytime Minors before then. This feels like an arbitrary limitation.

It's not an official ruling, no.  As I said, it's merely my understanding.

To give it more explanation:

Your allotment of actions are generated at some point every combat round. This is unspecified in RAW, and by my sensibilities there are only two probable possibilities: 1) everyone's actions are all generated/refreshed at the beginning of a combat round, or 2) when their player turn begins.  I think 2) has mechanical problems, so 1) stands as the better choice in my opinion.

Problems with generating your actions at the onset of your player turn:
You're stuck without any actions at all, major OR minor, during the first combat round until you go.
It's simpler to just have everyone's unused actions expire together at the end of a combat round and refresh together at the beginning of a new combat round.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

ZeroSum

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« Reply #8 on: <09-30-19/1416:00> »
My understanding is that trading minors in for a major is not an "anytime" activity. Ergo, you can't do It until your Player Turn begins, and by then you're down to your cap of 5 minors.
Is that supported by RAW? I can't see any definition one way or the other.

Your interpretation means characters could not do two Anytime Major actions before their turn happens. For example, they couldn't engage Full Defence and then Intercept. Yet they can do one Anytime Major and any number of Anytime Minors before then. This feels like an arbitrary and unintuitive limitation.
I think this is defined by RAW at the very start of the Game Timing and Actions section.

Quote from: SR6 page 40
When you get to take a turn and describe what your character is doing, your actions are contained in a combat round. A combat round lasts for about three seconds of in-universe time. Everyone, player characters and non-player characters alike, take a single player turn within that round.
This defines the terms "combat round" and "player turn" as distinctly separate entities.

The book then goes on to state, and I'm paraphrasing here, that you gain actions each combat round to spend on your player turn; by RAW you can take actions outside of your player turn, so it logically follows that the allotment must come at the start of the combat turn.

As a result, since you gain your actions at the start of the combat round, but can't start your player turn with more than 1 Major and 5 Minor, and because the rules state that "players can trade minor and major actions" but doesn't specify when this happens, I would infer that trading can be done at any time during the combat round.

RAW also states that unused actions are lost:
Quote
Note that actions cannot be carried from one round to another unless that is specifcally allowed in a rule.
« Last Edit: <09-30-19/1418:53> by ZeroSum »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <09-30-19/1421:06> »
Ah, I may have misunderstood what you were asking about penllawen.  If you were asking about not being able to trade in minors for a major until your Player Turn begins being RAW...

This is good Rules Lawyering 101:  "It doesn't say you can't" is trumped by "It doesn't say you can."  Not only is it prima facie that you can't do things if it's not your turn, things you CAN do when it's not your turn explicitly say so.  Trading actions isn't one of them, ergo "it doesn't say you can."
« Last Edit: <09-30-19/1423:53> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #10 on: <09-30-19/1433:24> »
The book then goes on to state, and I'm paraphrasing here, that you gain actions each combat round to spend on your player turn; by RAW you can take actions outside of your player turn, so it logically follows that the allotment must come at the start of the combat turn.

As a result, since you gain your actions at the start of the combat round, but can't start your player turn with more than 1 Major and 5 Minor, and because the rules state that "players can trade minor and major actions" but doesn't specify when this happens, I would infer that trading can be done at any time during the combat round.
I agree with all of this. The trading (to my mind) happens whenever the player wants, on-demand, and doesn't even need to really be explicitly declared as such. It happens implicitly when the player uses their second Major action. Or doesn't happen if they don't, or if they use too many Minor actions.

I don't understand why this limit of "5 Minor Actions" exists, particularly as (as far as I can tell) there's no way to get above 6 anyway. I assume it's just a guardrail against future buffs that do stack. I also think it's daft that it's 5, which means Wireless Reflexes IV are weirdly nerfed compared to III. I don't see why the text is "cannot start turn with more than 5" and not "no player can ever have any combination of initiative boosts that take them beyond 5d6 / 6 minor actions." Like, we all agree that the 5d6 boost is intrinsic and eternal, it's not something that we only calculate at a specific point in the combat turn. So why is the cap on minor actions not applied the same way?

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RAW also states that unused actions are lost:
Quote
Note that actions cannot be carried from one round to another unless that is specifically allowed in a rule.
This has the interesting connotations for dodge/block/full defence; in so far as, if you act really early in the turn and choose to keep some actions back for defence later on, they could easily be wasted. Not sure if that's fun tactical decision making or annoying analysis paralysis, though.

Ah, I may have misunderstood what you were asking about penllawen.  If you were asking about not being able to trade in minors for a major until your Player Turn begins being RAW...
Yes, that's what I'm asking, and I don't agree with your take because (as I said above) I think it's unintuitive to allow characters to act out of turn in other ways (ie Anytime actions) but not do their Major/Minor trades.

Consider another example: A character ends their turn and keeps a Major action back. Later, someone attacks them, and they want to do a Block Minor Anytime action to defence themselves. Are you going to tell them "no, it's not your turn now so you can't to major/minor trading"? Or are you going to let them trade the Major for a Minor action and defend themselves?

Quote
This is good Rules Lawyering 101:  "It doesn't say you can't" is trumped by "It doesn't say you can."  Not only is it prima facie that you can't do things if it's not your turn, things you CAN do when it's not your turn explicitly say so.  Trading actions isn't one of them, ergo "it doesn't say you can."
That depends on if you think trading Majors and Minors around is "doing something" or not. It's clearly not, in itself, an action. So I see it as something that happens outside the turn ordering.

ZeroSum

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« Reply #11 on: <09-30-19/1441:38> »
Ah, I may have misunderstood what you were asking about penllawen.  If you were asking about not being able to trade in minors for a major until your Player Turn begins being RAW...

This is good Rules Lawyering 101:  "It doesn't say you can't" is trumped by "It doesn't say you can."  Not only is it prima facie that you can't do things if it's not your turn, things you CAN do when it's not your turn explicitly say so.  Trading actions isn't one of them, ergo "it doesn't say you can."
I disagree; "Trade Action" is not an action in and of itself. Instead, the rules state:
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Players can trade Minor and Major Actions, using a Major Action to perform a Minor Action or using 4 Minor Actions to perform a Major Action (possibly providing an extra attack in a single player turn). Each action has a note next to it indicating when it can be performed; this is either Initiative (I) or Anytime (A). Initiative Actions can only be performed on the character’s player turn during an initiative round, while Anytime Actions can be used at any time. Note, though, that in order to perform an Anytime Action, you must have an Action left.

By RAW, you can you trade minor actions for a major, and you can do so when you take an action. This can happen outside of your player turn, which means that if you have 4 minor actions and want to perform an Anytime Major Action, you can choose to trade when doing so. This is not interpretation; this is following the literal steps in the Game Timing and Actions paragraph.

For example:
1. My street samurai has an initiative of 15+5d6
2. At the start of the combat round they are allotted 1 Major and 6 Minor actions (1 base plus 5 for each initiative dice)
3. An NPC manage to beat the samurai's initiative roll, and fires a grenade in the direction of the sam
4. The samurai takes the Avoid Incoming (A) action, and uses 4 of his minor actions to do so
5. Having survived the grenade, it is now the samurai's turn; he has 1 major and 2 minor actions left, and goes after the NPC with a vengance

This is RAW; you don't have to take an additional action to trade between major and minors, you just choose to do so when taking any action.
« Last Edit: <09-30-19/1445:22> by ZeroSum »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <09-30-19/1450:30> »
Ah, I may have misunderstood what you were asking about penllawen.  If you were asking about not being able to trade in minors for a major until your Player Turn begins being RAW...
Yes, that's what I'm asking, and I don't agree with your take because (as I said above) I think it's unintuitive to allow characters to act out of turn in other ways (ie Anytime actions) but not do their Major/Minor trades.

Well, take the "Add 3 to your Initiative Score".  Clearly that's not an action either, yet it says you can do this before your Player Turn.  Stuff you can do outside your Player Turn says you can do it outside your Player Turn.  IMO this is fairly straightforward then that if it fails to say you can do some "thing" outside your Player Turn, then you cannot.

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Consider another example: A character ends their turn and keeps a Major action back. Later, someone attacks them, and they want to do a Block Minor Anytime action to defence themselves. Are you going to tell them "no, it's not your turn now so you can't to major/minor trading"? Or are you going to let them trade the Major for a Minor action and defend themselves?

I would absolutely not let someone trade in a Major for  Four Minor actions, because that's not a thing. Re-read pg 40:

"Players can trade Minor and Major Actions,
using a Major Action to perform a Minor Action or
using 4 Minor Actions to perform a Major Action
(possibly providing an extra attack in a single player
turn)."

Bolded for emphasis.  In other words: If you only have a Major and you want to dodge, you just spend the Major.  You don't get to convert to 4 Minors then just spend a Minor.

Quote
Quote
This is good Rules Lawyering 101:  "It doesn't say you can't" is trumped by "It doesn't say you can."  Not only is it prima facie that you can't do things if it's not your turn, things you CAN do when it's not your turn explicitly say so.  Trading actions isn't one of them, ergo "it doesn't say you can."
That depends on if you think trading Majors and Minors around is "doing something" or not. It's clearly not, in itself, an action. So I see it as something that happens outside the turn ordering.

On this we can agree to disagree.  And honestly... the disagreement is moot:  There's technically no such thing as having 2 Major actions.

Re-read the quote again. The rule allows you to spend four Minor actions in place of a Major, it doesn't technically allow you to convert 4 Minors into 1 Major.   If you have 1 Major and 6 Minors, the only way to not lose a Minor action is to spend it before your Player Turn begins.
« Last Edit: <09-30-19/1452:42> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #13 on: <09-30-19/1451:17> »
This is RAW; you don't have to take an additional action to trade between major and minors, you just choose to do so when taking any action.
Yes, exactly.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <09-30-19/1454:23> »
This is RAW; you don't have to take an additional action to trade between major and minors, you just choose to do so when taking any action.
Yes, exactly.

Indeed. If you spend 4 Minors, you can take a Major action.  If it's an anytime Major action, you can spend 4 minor actions doing that anytime Major action before your turn begins, yes.

It's important to remember this rule does not allow you to spend 4 minors to bank a Major action for use later on in the turn.

Edit: Re-checked the CRB.  There are 2 (A)nytime Major Actions: participating in a teamwork test and counterspelling.  If you have 1 Major and 6 Minors, you can do one of those things before your turn begins, then begin your turn with 1 Major and 2 minors.  What you cannot do is begin your turn with 2 Majors and 2 Minors.
« Last Edit: <09-30-19/1501:12> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.