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SR6 - Toxin Resistance Test

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ZeroSum

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« Reply #15 on: <10-12-19/1912:45> »
Duration is described on p121: It's how long the dose counts for Concentration rules. Concentration rules are on p122, and talk about extra Power when exposed to multiple doses. That duration of Narcoject makes you more vulnerable to a second hit by it, within that timeframe.
Ah, of course. Thanks!

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As for awakening: You're unconscious when either track is full. This implies that if both have boxes left, you awake, which is supported by the example on p120.
Cool, that's easy enough. So simply healing a single box of damage from a single full condition monitor would wake you up.

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It says damage, not possible damage, so I'd say the Resistance test already handled your damage reduction. I understand a second test would be welcome, but toxins are already expensive as hell (a grenade requires 20 doses, so you need special dart weapons for less expensive hits and that is still costly).
This one I disagree with. Power and Effect are not the same thing, and the results of each are handled in different paragraph and therefore different stages.

1. Power is handled in one paragraph, and the Power of a Toxin is reduced by hits on a Toxin Resistance Test. If any Power remains after the Toxin Resistance Test, resulting Power is used to determine of the DV of any Effect that causes damage
2. Damage is handled in the following, separate paragraph, and "is treated just like any other injury"; "any other injury" would be resisted by Body, so what makes the damage suffered by Toxins any different when the rules specifically say to treat them like a normal injury?

EDIT:
Fixed broken quotes.
« Last Edit: <10-12-19/2006:28> by ZeroSum »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <10-12-19/1927:36> »
Not all damage you take is resisted. And in this case, you actually did resist it, and with a bonus too: Power is described to be the DV, and Toxin Resistance is used to reduce it:

"Power serves as the DV of the attack."
"A Toxin Resistance test [...] is used to reduce the damage."

Edit: Meanwhile, "any other injury" means you can treat it like normal, not that you get an extra soak test. Injuries is what you get after the soak happened, after all. So if you take damage from Toxins, First Aid has to be applied within 1 minute of the end of the encounter, Medkits within an hour, etc, etc.
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ZeroSum

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« Reply #17 on: <10-12-19/2023:47> »
Not all damage you take is resisted.

While this is a true statement, I don't think this in and of itself is a valid or strong enough argument. The cases where damage is unresisted is, as far as I can tell, always specifically called out. For example:
Quote from: SR6 p. 124
Cram is an extremely popular stimulant. When this drug wears off, users crash and suffer 6 Stun damage (unresisted).


And in this case, you actually did resist it, and with a bonus too: Power is described to be the DV, and Toxin Resistance is used to reduce it:

"Power serves as the DV of the attack."
"A Toxin Resistance test [...] is used to reduce the damage."

Yes and no. While power is unequivocally equal to DV, it is also it's own separate thing. And I think the rest of the Power paragraph is equally relevant:
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Power tells how powerful the toxin is. For toxins that do actual damage, either Physical or Stun, Power serves as the DV of the attack.

The key lies in how you read the second part of your quote:
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A Toxin Resistance test (Body + Willpower + the rating of any appropriate protective gear/systems) is used to reduce the damage.

"Reduce the damage" could refer to reducing the DV. Note that the text does not specifically say "resist the damage" and instead uses the term "reduce"; the term "Damage Resistance test" is capitalized in several places in the CRB, but not once is a "Damage Reduction test" mentioned.

Based on the above, I read it as the Toxin Resistance Test reduced the Damage Value of the attack; this is not a resistance test, but a DV modification similar to adding net hits to the Damage Value of a ranged or melee attack.

Edit: Meanwhile, "any other injury" means you can treat it like normal, not that you get an extra soak test. Injuries is what you get after the soak happened, after all. So if you take damage from Toxins, First Aid has to be applied within 1 minute of the end of the encounter, Medkits within an hour, etc, etc.
This is one aspect of "treated like any other injury, yes. But as far as I can tell, nothing in the rules as written specifically calls out that a Toxin Resistance Test is equal to a Damage Resistance Test, and given that "damage from toxins is treated just like any other injury" it is not clear to me that this only applies to healing tests, but is ambiguous enough to also potentially include a separate damage resistance test in addition to the toxin resistance test.

I will note that I do not think this is necessarily intended; I personally believe that a Toxin Resistance Test should serve as a Damage Resistance Test, but can we at least agree that the text is ambiguous and could be interpreted differently by readers who only have access to the SR6 CRB? As it stands, this would once again be something I think would benefit from an entry in a Designer's Note document.

As someone who has played a lot of Warhammer over the past 30 years, where grammar, specific terms, and rules as written are debated endlessly, I really think Games Workshop has stepped up their game in the past few years by introducing extremely frequent Errata and FAQ/Designer's Notes documents where the intent behind specific rules are elaborated upon to clear up any misconceptions.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: <10-12-19/2048:35> »
can we at least agree that the text is ambiguous
Given how the rules very explicitly state "Power serves as the DV of the attack."? I disagree. I can understand misreading it, but I do not think the text itself is ambiguous, when it explicitly states the parts I quoted. Simply tricky to read since it's lawyery, but not ambiguous enough to demand clarification.

The Power is the DV of the attack. You reduce the Power with a resistance test. You then end up taking damage unless you reduce the Power to 0, without a second resistance test. The resulting injury is treatable as any other injury, meaning timespan rules apply. The remaining Power is relevant for things such as the Antidote spell. Given the explicit statements supporting the simple flow of logic, I think another explicit statement would be needed to support the reading of a second test applying, and no such explicit statement appears present.

Again, injury is never used to indicate POTENTIAL damage. It's used to indicate damage already done. So that line does not support a second test either.
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ZeroSum

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« Reply #19 on: <10-12-19/2101:41> »
We will just have to agree to disagree then.

EDIT:
On the text being ambiguous or not, that is. As I said, I agree with you in that I do not think that there should be a damage resistance test in addition to the toxin resistance test, but I do not agree with your statements that the text is clear and logical.
« Last Edit: <10-12-19/2103:53> by ZeroSum »