Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Banshee on <11-04-21/0817:45>

Title: Matrix wish list
Post by: Banshee on <11-04-21/0817:45>
Ok gang,

We are starting to put together some ideas and concepts for the advanced matrix book. What do you want to see in it?

Gaps that need covered?
Explanations and clarifications?
New toys and tools? (Gear and programs, etc)
New options?

Whatever... it's a team effort so I won't be writing the whole thing and can't guarantee they will all make it but can at least make sure they get looked at.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: MercilessMing on <11-04-21/1254:43>
Agents; I'd love deckers to have them but I also think they're fine without them so I don't know what role they'd play.

I want a more complex edge ecosystem in the matrix, but not to the degree that Firing Squad and Chase scenes went to.  Canonize ways to gain situational edge in the matrix.  Direct connections, passwords, knowledge skills, VR modes, etc.
Matrix edge actions are lackluster and never see play at our table.  I'm mostly fine playing my decker and just using the standard edge boosts, but a menu of more useful edge boosts and actions would be nice.

I'd enjoy AI player characters, if it doesn't require learning a third way to use the matrix and they can easily inhabit butler drones or whatever.

An easy, official way to do matrix related basic stuff that we take for granted in video games: add virtual waypoints, highlight targets that we can detect via matrix perception, etc

Expand on the interaction of electronics and engineering.  An official Electronics specialization of Engineering would be a good starting point.

I don't find Noise to be a useful mechanic, please don't expand on that.

Smaller CMs for devices.  NPCs have professional ratings, but devices always take their full CM to defeat.  Is Device Rating a good substitute?

Time-delayed Control Device and Spoof Command actions - you could introduce some trap-setting playstyle by letting hackers leave malicious code inside hosts or devices.  Tell a vending machine to send you an email when person x makes a purchase and then delete itself.  Tell a maglock to open for 5 seconds at a specific time.  These malicious commands could be discovered and erased in a similar way as Probe exploits.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Aria on <11-04-21/1312:11>
Second AI PCs… I know there are potentially issues with undying characters but then I can’t think when a PC last died in one of my games anyway (maybe I’m too nice?!?  ::))
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Hobbes on <11-04-21/1728:30>
More Matrix actions for CyberJacks and Resonance scores.  I'll also second, never having seen an Edge Matrix action used in play.

More ways to gain Edge while Matrixing.

Cyberdeck and Cyberjack options.  Mods, Programs, and such.  Cyberjacks need lovin' IMO.

The Kill Code Matrix Actions, the various buffs and debuffs, were one of my favorite things in 5th edition.  I'd love to see those return.

More Matrix related Cyberware/Bioware, Datajack plus for example.

And of course the expected Technomancer options, Echos, Complex Forms, ect. 

Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <11-04-21/2004:29>
Rules on prepping for high-profile hacks and runs, especially as a team effort. This may include extensive network surveillance, fishing attacks or even writing your own "Zero day Hacks", but also the planting of datataps, relays and spoof routers via onsite infiltration and even social engineering. In this regard, I wouldnīt mind if a hacking supplement splices in more rules about general (tech-based) security measures like sensor, biometric locks, facial recognition, SIN checks etc. as well as the gear and perks needed to circumvent them. While this isnīt "hacking" in the strictest sense, there is much overlap in practise.

A simple, meaningfull bonus for establishing direct connections (f.i. granting Edge or Edge Discounts?).

More perks for VR usage, both in Hot and Cold Sim. Right now, itīs just an Initiative Bonus, so it doesnīt really help with tests outside of combat or other time sensitive situations.

Probably a point of contention for many, but please hear me out: (Slightly) better defensive options for normal Matrix users. Right now, even the best commlinks only gives you a Firewall of 3. Iīm not against stacking the odds more in favor for the hacker, but bear in mind that most targets still have the option to just turn of wireless functionality entirely.
 
(Passive) Countermeasures and Threats: IMO, it can be quite annoying that most threats for hackers in 5th and 6th edition are "active" in nature: IC, security spiders and sprites are all represented by active entities with a condition monitor, Initiative and a seperate action economy. The only other threats/obstructions left are File protection, Data bombs and OS in general, since the other "punishments" for failing illegal actions are gone in 6th Edition. This means that hacking will clog up more table time once the hacker is spotted or the GM wants to up the ante, because every hickup will eventually lead to Matrix Combat. Many PC hackers will just pull out immediately once spotted - not just because fighting IC is dangerous, but also because itīs a repetetive one-man show. Two alternative ideas:

BTW: "Are there Viruses?" is also a common question from hacker players at my table, and many were surprised that this isnīt really a thing in the 2 most recent editions. The same goes for other common-knowledge concepts and terms like DOS attacks, Trojans, Phishing, Ransomware or Zero-Day threats. Not all of these need fleshed-out rules and some can be argued to be already implemented in existing matrix actions and perks, but I think thereīs a lot of unused potential here: F.i., a Trojan could be an infected File that attempts to open up a backdoor once itīs brought in a host by an unsuspecting victim. This would open up another way of infiltrating a host through deception.

Thatīs it for now. I have a few ideas regarding Hardware and Technomancers, but Iīll safe them for another post ;)
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-04-21/2138:13>
Probably a point of contention for many, but please hear me out: (Slightly) better defensive options for normal Matrix users. Right now, even the best commlinks only gives you a Firewall of 3. Iīm not against stacking the odds more in favor for the hacker, but bear in mind that most targets still have the option to just turn of wireless functionality entirely.

As a PSA, the City Edition errata hopefully addressed this.  Via allowing PANs to just be team-wide rather than character-by-character.  So, your sammy or mage or whatever just slaves their gear to the Decker or technomancer or rigger, and boom you now have much better defensive options than a Firewall 3 commlink.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <11-05-21/1042:11>
That is a solution for teams of Shadowrunners (provided that they have a hacker or rigger in the first place!), but not for NPC - unless we assume that every person (or device) of interest has some form of external protection through Host, RCC or Decker support.

IMO, thereīs a general need for more ways to get a decent protection dice pool, especially since PAN-less devices donīt have any defenses right now. F.i. personal Nodes ("mini-hosts"?) for your home appliances, "security-grade" commlinks, subscription services or even just the simple option to equip individual pieces of gear with a firewall (or even a "passive" Sleaze!) dongle.

BTW: As far as I can tell, itīs quite very unclear what prerequisites are needed to consider a device.

Do I need to consciously "watch" my stuff in the Matrix? Do I need to stay in proximity? Is a master-slave-relationship necessary?
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Hobbes on <11-05-21/1518:51>
Cheap RCC and a couple of the E-war Programs from Double Clutch set up a character with pretty beefy passive Matrix defenses for under 10,000 Nuyen.  Not cheap, but its good for an entire gang or squad of some kind.

A hacker throwing 12 to 18 dice is still likely to walk all over anything outside a host but the dice pools will be closer and the Overwatch score will get run up a few more points.

That said, any NPC can be part of a Hosts WAN.  Even a Rating 3 host with a low PR Spider will up the dice pools considerably.   
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: cantrip on <11-05-21/1701:13>
It would be helpful to have examples that show how varying sizes of hosts are layed out.

Perhaps some examples of submersion "realms" in the Resonance for Technomancers.

Isolation tanks for deckers that are just plain tired of the real world.  ;)

Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <11-05-21/1927:41>
6th edition might be the first edition where hackers are no longer outsourced to npcs and where you don't have to hand-wave most rules. The abstraction level is at a good level. As is the action economy. Please don't complicate things (we don't really need foundation runs) ;-)


Edit, already included in the Seattle Edition
PAN seem to have two different meanings (several references for this in 5th edition as well):
1. Smaller number of electronic devices (for example drones)
2. Hundreds of electronic devices you carry on your body

In the supplement I would like to see some official support for both. For example that all your electronic devices on your body (or near vicinity) count as if they are part of your PAN and get protection of your PANs firewall while at the same time keeping the lower limit of "smart" devices (such as turrets, drones, vehicles etc) as-is, as this is one of the advantages of accessing the matrix via a RCC over a cyberdeck or commlink.



Would like to see some clarification about if you can access the matrix via a RCC while still also having access to a cyberdeck or if they are mutual exclusive (personally I think it would make sense that they are mutually exclusive). Would also like to see a few more actions that require that you access the matrix via a cyberdeck.


Would like to see some added rewards / advantages to teams that try to keep the team together / that bring the nerd. Perhaps related to Direct Connections / Line of Sight / Close Proximity hacking?


Edit, already included in the Seattle Edition
Would be nice to see some buffs to cyberjacks. Perhaps listed Initiative bonus of Cyberdecks could officially listed as Initiative Dice (including Minor Action(s)) rather than 'just' Initiative Score?


Cool if there was some alternative rules on how to gain access to networks besides brute forcing through the main gate or probing the network to find a backdoor (for example social engineering, blackmailing, intimidating, mind probing, control thoughts, dumpster diving for access codes, etc and perhaps physical proximity and engineering skill to gaining access to cameras connected to a network or what not). But only if it doesn't complicate the rules too much.


Slightly more passive defense for low defense devices and personal networks not involving hosts and hackers would be welcome. Perhaps that stand-alone devices are given some level of firewall instead of zero (equal to its device rating?). And/or that commlinks get a slightly improved firewall rating.


That both matrix search and probe are turned into regular simple tests (that way matrix search hits will also fit better with the existing legwork table).



Having said that, most above ideas are already present here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k/edit

Just make the entire document official and call it a day ;-)
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-05-21/2101:24>

PAN seem to have two different meanings (several references for this in 5th edition as well):
1. Smaller number of electronic devices (for example drones)
2. Hundreds of electronic devices you carry on your body

In the supplement I would like to see some official support for both. For example that all your electronic devices on your body (or near vicinity) count as if they are part of your PAN and get protection of your PANs firewall while at the same time keeping the lower limit of "smart" devices (such as turrets, drones, vehicles etc) as-is, as this is one of the advantages of accessing the matrix via a RCC over a cyberdeck or commlink.

Again, that's now the case in the CRB as of City edition :) all your everything is in your PAN, or your team's PAN, if you link them up.  And the "device limit" counts towards remotely operated devices, e.g. drones.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: KarmaInferno on <11-07-21/0917:04>
RCC echo.

Though that might be better suited for the Resonance book.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <11-11-21/1957:15>
Ok, back again  ;D

Had to do a little digging, but I found and old kickstarted (probably too late, I donīt remember) in the wake of the second Matrix sourcebook for fifth Edition: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=26791

Right after Kill Code came out, I started a bunch of threads with more houserules and ideas. Dunno, had way to much time back then ::) Some things discussed there have already been (re-)implemented, like nested or local hosts, and some have already been mentioned before, but I think thereīs still much to find. Some ideas Iīd like to highlight:

Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Sphinx on <11-12-21/1212:52>
Shadowrun players, especially new ones, come into the game with certain expectations about what their hacker character should be able to do in the game. These expectations are mostly shaped by what they see fictional hackers doing in movies and TV shows. Some of these things are possible within the rules, but many aren't — often for good reasons. I'd like to see these preconceptions addressed in the form of a "mythbusting" section. In-universe, it could be framed as one of the elite hackers making disparaging remarks about "Trideo Hacking" vs. real hacking, but the real point would be to address player ideas of what their characters can and can't do within the rules. At a minimum, include a sidebar somewhere with a list of things that "everyone thinks hackers can do, but really they can't."

For example, in the Leverage TV show, the hacker (Hardison, played by Aldis Hodge) routinely creates convincing fake identities for his teammates. It's not unreasonable for a Shadowrun player to ask the GM if their character can create Fake SINs. The Matrix sourcebook should either (A) provide rules for players to do this, or (B) explain why they can't or shouldn't be able to do this in the game.

Make a list of things fictional hackers often do on TV and in the movies. Explain how to do the things that are possible within the rules. Introduce new rules for things that should be possible but haven't been covered yet. And for the things that aren't allowed, acknowledge that hackers do this on trideo all the time but it's not "really possible," and preferably state why not.

Just off the top of my head, a list of things hackers do on TV (some of these are already Matrix actions, some aren't but should be, and some probably shouldn't be allowed):
> Make people invisible to security cameras ("looping footage")
> Read/edit confidential files and messages
> Lock and unlock doors
> Turn lights on/off
> Control elevators
> Control traffic lights
> Control someone's car (e.g., lock them inside, or lock them out)
> Eavesdrop on phone conversations
> Intercept/redirect phone calls
> Impersonate someone in a voice or video call (deepfake)
> Create fictional/fake identities
> Steal someone's existing identity
> Erase someone's identity
> Track someone's current location by their phone
> Backtrack someone's datatrail to find out where they've been
> Remotely activate someone's smartphone camera/microphone to spy on them
> Trigger fire suppression/sprinkler systems
> Trigger alarms (or cancel/prevent them)
> Transfer funds out of (or into) someone's bank account
> Charge goods/services to someone else's account
> Cut off someone's communications (jam one person in a crowd)
> Hold someone's account hostage (ransomware)
> "Convenience" hacks (vending machines, ticketing systems, hotel/restaurant reservations)
> Identify someone using facial/voice recognition software
> Locate someone using facial/voice recognition
> Falsify camera footage to show something other than what really happened
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Banshee on <11-13-21/0927:47>
Just a quick note, thanks for the feedback from you all so far. Many of these were already on the list but there are a few new ones that we will to incorporate.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: K3y on <11-13-21/1255:08>
Hi, everyone, I am not new but is the first time I post (and my English is quite bad)
This is what I would like to see (in general not new gear or rules, but clarifications):
- Examples of runs. A lot of examples, like the French rulebook and like the QuickStart box. And even more if possibile that can cover at least 90% of run in the matrix (VR and AR).
- Schemes (like flow chart) that can illustrate better the actions.
- Examples of host. From basic host to complex AAA Megacorp host.
- Clarifications about definitions: device and electronic device for examples. The electronic ones have condition monitor and can be damaged but the normal device linked in the PAN?
Ok I read the matrix faq and enhancement by Banshee but in the rulebook I don't find any reference.
- Illustrations and description of the Matrix. Some time I found difficult to explain what it is. Ok, there are a lot of movies and comics but in CRB I don't find a lot of explanation and so I think could be an help for GMs and players.
And:
- A streamlined optional rule for alternative/simplified matrix, so I can play with newbies without scare them. Maybe a modular system? Combat and magic is quite easy to understand and play, but matrix I found harder to play.
- New programs and gears is ok, but for me is more important to keep it easy and simple, not to slow down the game too much.
- New cards (accessory) to help build host, net and have spider and other NPC at hand

Thank you!
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <11-14-21/0316:37>
Hello there K3y, welcome to the forums! :-)


- Examples of runs. A lot of examples
I helped create a few examples in the FAQ to cover most common scenarios.
Are there any specific scenarios you feel are missing (maybe I can create a few more).

 
- A streamlined optional rule for alternative/simplified matrix
if you want to simplify and handwave a lot of the complexity of the Matrix rules you can just rely on Electronics + Logic for Legal tests and Cracking + Logic for Illegal tests, versus an opposed roll of either Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Dreamwalker on <11-14-21/1020:21>
Hello (again) board,

this question finally enticed me to join and drop my two cents, so i would like to make the following suggestions:

As stated before, SIN verification would be a good topic to cover in an upcoming matrix source book as well as options for digital forgery (IDs, and video/audio/simsense data). Furthermore, additional mechanical details on team-wide PANs may be a worthwhile addition to already established CRB rules.

As for fluff and story telling, details on (still) active data havens, decker groups, major recent developments, matrix clubs, major matrix players and matrix societies, etc. could provide additional insights and help building a vibrant matrix ecosystem. Also, the concept of the foundation appears highly intriguing (especially in light of previous shadowrun story arcs). An interesting question would be, if corporations have established new defenses to protect their sensitive data in the foundation.

I hope you find these suggestions helpful. Thanks for your continued effort.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Beta on <11-15-21/1501:11>
I'll add a one super general wish, with some examples.

The general: information about the creation and use of AROs.  They are everywhere, right?  Some of them are graffiti, so you don't have to be someone super official to make them (but maybe the average person can't post them for everyone to see?).  They seem really handy.  But there are no rules for them.  So I'd like to know:

- how do I make one out on a grid?  How long is it apt to stay up?  (for example we want to put up a piece of graffiti along a certain corporate director's route to work that shows we have information about his private life, so it needs to be on a grid that he will see, and stay up for a little while.

- in a corporate facility, if I want something seen by the employees, do I place the ARO on the grid or in the host?  (and are the rules different?)  For example, my hacker wants a couple of minutes of quiet VR time inside a corp. facility, and wants to put up an ARO on the washroom door saying "Out of service /Facilities have been called / Please use the washroom on the 3rd or 5th floor instead" in a way that workers will see (in 5e I'd argue that this may have been in the domain of forgery, for making it look authentic.  No clue in 6e)

- We've constructed fake pics of the VP of security in a compromising position with an orc dominatrix, and want to display it over the entrance to the parking garage as people arrive in the morning (what skill we used to forge this in 6e I'm not sure, but assume we did it).  Obviously there will soon be efforts to have it erased/brought down/whatever, but we'd like to keep it up for at least half an hour.  How does someone else erase our ARO?  How do we stop them?



Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: K3y on <11-15-21/1639:56>
Hello there K3y, welcome to the forums! :-)


- Examples of runs. A lot of examples
I helped create a few examples in the FAQ to cover most common scenarios.
Are there any specific scenarios you feel are missing (maybe I can create a few more).

- A streamlined optional rule for alternative/simplified matrix
if you want to simplify and handwave a lot of the complexity of the Matrix rules you can just rely on Electronics + Logic for Legal tests and Cracking + Logic for Illegal tests, versus an opposed roll of either Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2.

Thank you!

I am not sure if we are talking about the same faq. I miss a typical run in a host, from the beginning, to steel data or destroy something. What you see and what you are doing. The perception of the structure, hacks in real life and in matrix, a fight with Ice and spider and so on.
Then a description of an encounter, a fight and a social one, with some PC in real life and the decker who try to do some matrix job (stealthy or brutally entering the net), probably in AR so he can move and react to with happen IRL.
And then damaging devices in the PAN. Is it possibile? In CRB it doesn't seem but in the forums I read a lot about the possibility to attack a device. I would like a clear answer about this.

Thanks, this is an optional rule I thought about but didn't know if it works. Great!
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <11-16-21/0851:24>
I'll add a one super general wish, with some examples.

The general: information about the creation and use of AROs.  They are everywhere, right?
As I understand it (but it might have changed for SR6) is that an ARO is represented by a File Icon and a File Icon will either be located on a wireless enabled Device or in a Host.

Private AROs that you created only for yourself typically originates from your commlink.

Private AROs that you created but wish to share with a specific individual (for example highlighting an individual in a crowd or drawing of a line on an AR map to point of the location of the party) typically also originates from your commlink (before you send it to the recipient via the Send Message Matrix Action).

Public AROs that you wish to share with everyone walking pass a physical location (such as the neon sign above a pub or temporary graffiti or whatever) seem to originate from physical RFID tags left at that location (this is typically called geo tagging).

Observers (including yourself) seem to have the option to limit the amount of ARO spam they allow in their field of view (or even completely turn it off), so even if you littering an entire area with RFID tags displaying perverted AROs it is not guaranteed that everyone that walk pass the area will notice of them.



I am not sure if we are talking about the same faq.
I am talking about this one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k/edit



And then damaging devices in the PAN. Is it possibile?
Yes, it is possible.

This is what the Data Spike action and the Tarpit action is used for.

Both of them are outsider actions so you can take them even if you don't yet have User or Admin access on the network itself.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: K3y on <11-17-21/1723:19>
Quote
Xenon
I am not sure if we are talking about the same faq.
I am talking about this one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k/edit



And then damaging devices in the PAN. Is it possibile?
Yes, it is possible.

This is what the Data Spike action and the Tarpit action is used for.

Both of them are outsider actions so you can take them even if you don't yet have User or Admin access on the network itself.

Ok is the same faq and optional rule set.

I am sorry if I ask you once more about this, but damaging devices is the rule i don’t understand yet. ☹️ In the faq there is an explanation and new rules about, but in the rulebook is really vague.
In the Matrix paragraph it says that attack is tipically against communication devices that have condition monitor. The examples are only about com devices. And the gear section lists the electronic devices with this feature. Weapons don’t have it. I thought that probably normal devices have rfid with device rating 1. Is it right? But it is not explained clearly.
Rule as intended vs rule as written or I misunderstood the game?

Thank you once more for your patience.
This thread is very helpful and i am waiting for this new sourcebook
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <11-17-21/1936:21>
Yes, other devices like smartguns can be attacked and bricked with Matrix Attacks. Itīs quite a viable option  too: AFAIK, devices can even get from "wound penalties" from Matrix damage (i.e. users suffer a -1 Modifier for every 3 points of damage), so you donīt even need to fully brick things to annoy the opposition.

However: Since you are not the only one here confused by this, this probably warrants clarification, either via errata or by additional examples in the Matrix sourcebook. Maybe itīs another instance of change blindness between 5th and 6th Edition? 

Side note: Since "Matrix wound modifiers" are a thing now, this could serve as another angle for new Gear and Perks: Some Programms, Qualities or Complex Forms might mitigate these effects (just like Pain Tolerance in meatspace), while others may enhance them.   
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Banshee on <11-18-21/0821:25>
Using matrix attack to damage devices will get some attention for sure.

It so much change blindness as it was left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. I only covered specifics in the matrix chapter for commlinks, cyberdecks,  etc and assumed other gear would be covered in the gear chapter... well not so much.

As it sits I'm going to try and integrate as much of (if not all) of my FAQ into the new matrix book as I can. Just waiting to hear what chapters I get to work on yet.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: MercilessMing on <11-18-21/1107:18>
Quote from: K3y
I am sorry if I ask you once more about this, but damaging devices is the rule i don’t understand yet. ☹️ In the faq there is an explanation and new rules about, but in the rulebook is really vague.
In the Matrix paragraph it says that attack is tipically against communication devices that have condition monitor.

Hopefully this helps:

Quote from: SR6 CRB p.179
Typically, Matrix damage is inflicted against the
device an individual is using to access the Matrix.
Devices have a Matrix Condition Monitor equal
to [(Device Rating / 2, rounded up) + 8].
I take this to mean that all devices - cyberdecks, vending machines, jet planes, rifles, trids, etc, have a condition monitor of at least 9.  Even though it says Matrix damage is "typically" done against the device used to access the matrix, the condition monitor sentence simply says "devices" have a CM of device rating/2 +8. 

This is way too much IMO, and doesn't give enough meaningful distinction in toughness between used scratch built junk and high end custom military tech.  I'd prefer it if hackers could one-shot basic tech and have to chip away at high end stuff.  This right here could be a good place to give Used grade cyberware a disadvantage but it's not really meaningful.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: K3y on <11-18-21/1533:53>
I am new to Shadowrun, I started with Anarchy and then 6e, I don't know 5th edition and so I have difficulty understanding something.

So damaging weapons means destroy or weaken the functionality. I thought that via Matrix you can only damage communications and software part of the weapon (the matrix condition monitor of the smartgun) but you can still fire manually without penalty. Just pull the trigger. This changes a lot the play, I think. It is more effective

In Firing Squad there is the "weapon commlink" that has device rating 1. So if I attack a gun with weapon commlink I have to destroy 2 matrix condition monitor. Probably is better to kill directly the grunt!
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <11-19-21/0356:48>
I am new to Shadowrun, I started with Anarchy and then 6e, I don't know 5th edition and so I have difficulty understanding something.
Yeah.... Since they decided to cut many clarifying examples and (perhaps redundant) clarifying rules, 6th edition made the rules ambiguous and harder to understand (not easier as I think the intention was when they decided to reduce the word count). In many ways I guess the edition is far easier to read and understand if you already have knowledge from SR5 :-/

If it wasn't for this I would probably openly promote SR6 as the most newbie friendly edition...



So damaging weapons means destroy or weaken the functionality.
With a strict reading of the rules in SR6 (as written):

* Chapter on "Devices" does not talk about bricking, matrix damage modifiers, matrix condition monitors or device ratings. And almost the entire text talk about commlinks. Not firearms or other devices. There even didn't use to be a device rating table for devices other than Commlinks, Cyberdecks and RCCs.
* Chapter on "Personas and Attributes" does talk about bricking, matrix damage modifiers, matrix condition monitors and device ratings - but in the context of personas, commlinks and cyberdecks. Not firearms or other devices.
* Chapter on "Bricking" have the first paragraph from 5th edition, but left out the clarifying (but perhaps redundant) second paragraph that talk about firearms and other devices (other than commlink and cyberdecks). That for example firearms can no longer be fired if the firearm is bricked.


SR5 p. 228 Bricking
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly brick a katana, ne? And don’t panic when your trickedout combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again … if you know a competent technician.


In previous edition, causing matrix damage was kinda binary. Either the device was fully functional (had at least one matrix condition monitor box left) or it was 100% bricked. In 6th edition devices start to deteriorate with more matrix damage taken

SR6 p. 174 Personas and Attributes
All tests using a damaged device have a –1 modifier for every three full boxes of Matrix damage, until the device is repaired.

(but as this is only mentioned in the Personas and Attributes chapter, not in the Devices chapter, it is actually, from a strict reading of the rules as written point of view, not clear if this have an impact on all actions you take with any device or if it just affect matrix actions you take with commlinks and cyberdecks).


There are actually many many examples of this (in almost all sections of the book). While I in previous editions typically argued RAW (Rules as [strictly] Written) I now, for this edition, almost always instead argue RAI (Rules as Intended [with the help of clarifying posts from the author and by applying common sense or real life knowledge and by borrowing rules and examples on how it used to work in previous edition]).
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <11-19-21/0401:42>
What I meant to say was that;

Rule-wise (RAW) it can for sure be read as if you can only brick personas / devices connected to personas (commlinks, cyberdecks, RCCs, ...)

But that I guess the intent (RAI) is that you can [still] brick any device. And what is new for this edition is that just causing matrix damage to any device (for example firearms etc, not just commlinks etc) will also give the user a negative dice pool modifier for tests involving said device.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <11-19-21/0537:18>
Thatīs why Iīm not sure if itīs actually necessary (or the best solution to existing problems) to lower the Condition Monitors of devices as MMM suggested. The biggest problem of attacking devices (and Matrix Combat in general!) has always been that the targets can often escape pretty easily. In the case of devices, itīs just a Minor Action to shut down wireless functionality, and since Attack actions are noticed straight away, you often only have one shot. In 6th Edition, thereīs also no Bonus damage for higher access levels as it was in 5th Edition. However, since there are also "Wound modifiers" for devices now, the damage dealt before the device goes offline is not in vain. Also, Matrix Attributes for non-specialists are pretty low now, and Matrix Damage is only resisted by the Firewall Attribute, so oneshotting weakly protected devices isnīt too hard.

Iīd prefer additional options for Hackers and Technomancers that allow for more dedicated anti-device playstyles and additional angles of Attack.

Here are some ideas:
   

Two notes regarding Technomancers:
 
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: MercilessMing on <11-19-21/1110:22>
Quote
However, since there are also "Wound modifiers" for devices now, the damage dealt before the device goes offline is not in vain.
For devices where wound modifiers matter, sure - many are binary.
Quote
Also, Matrix Attributes for non-specialists are pretty low now, and Matrix Damage is only resisted by the Firewall Attribute, so oneshotting weakly protected devices isnīt too hard.
It isn't too hard to do 9 points of matrix damage in one shot? (that's the minimum CM of all devices) That's not true at all, you're talking 5 net hits on a data spike with a Rating 4, $100,000 cyberdeck.  In other words, only drek hot shadowrunner deckers will ever have a chance of doing it, and it would have to be a basically undefended device.  Device Rating X2 would have given a better CM range for narrative outcomes.  This can be retconned in an expanded matrix book by applying Professional Rating logic to device ratings...  Rating 1 mass market junk stops working after any hit, but isn't "dead" until its CM is full.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Michael Chandra on <11-19-21/1456:44>
Quote
However, since there are also "Wound modifiers" for devices now, the damage dealt before the device goes offline is not in vain.
For devices where wound modifiers matter, sure - many are binary.
Quote
Also, Matrix Attributes for non-specialists are pretty low now, and Matrix Damage is only resisted by the Firewall Attribute, so oneshotting weakly protected devices isnīt too hard.
Eh, most devices involve a test when using them, no? Throw a grenade, it fizzles and sparks and throws off your aim.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <11-19-21/2202:45>
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeell...

Ok, youīre right, it is too hard right now. Somehow forgot that the Damage Code is only Attack/2  in 6th  ::)

I want to highlight that I`d still love to see stuff like conditional damage bonuses and link-logging against devices, but a CM reduction of 1-3 points for certain types of personal gear seems like a good idea as well. Could also work in conjunction if balanced properly.   

Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: K3y on <11-20-21/0323:32>
What I meant to say was that;

Rule-wise (RAW) it can for sure be read as if you can only brick personas / devices connected to personas (commlinks, cyberdecks, RCCs, ...)

But that I guess the intent (RAI) is that you can [still] brick any device. And what is new for this edition is that just causing matrix damage to any device (for example firearms etc, not just commlinks etc) will also give the user a negative dice pool modifier for tests involving said device.

Thanks. Good. So I will ask my players if they want to go RAW or RAI. If they want a more simple game, with some limitations or if they want a hacker who can break weapons, disrupt devices and so on, but a more complex and dangerous play.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Smogg on <11-20-21/1848:11>
Ahh wish list.

First in general. Please keep standard equipment like comlinks price range from providing stronger matrix defense. This is the decker/technomancer's realm, the place where they are supposed to shine. Outside of hosts, the solid defense against hacking should be a hacker defending your PAN, just like you need a mage to get magic protection.

I would like to see lockdown clarified to clearly prevent any affected devices within an affected PAN from being turned wirless off, or turned off. Alternatively if that was not the intention with the rules, I think there should be a program that does this. Hacking does not feel as dangerous when you can just turn off your devices when under attack as opposed to magic or a streetsam in your face, where you dont have that option.

Would be cool to see the new matrix book cover AI player characters. I think AIs in 5th were super fun to play, but I hope in 6th they can avoid downsides that makes them extreemly risky to play. I don't think that is nessesary at all.

I loved the Cyberadept option from 5th. It would be great to see some of the technomancer options appear in 6th as well.

Oh yes, and i would really like to see some Shadowrunner matrix setup examples that makes it really clear how a team with a decker and/or rigger can set up. I imagine the team have a shared PAN where the best D/F are used for matrix defence by the Decker monitoring the PAN, but it's not really clear anywhere yet. This is really important to understand for both GM and players. Also if its possible to join a PAN, how many can join? Does a guest count as a slave since the team might might be split up / working remotely? all good things to get sorted with some examples i think.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: lostpapers on <11-25-21/1017:18>
OMG, finally a matrix book! Great news

As I'm currently deep into the matrix as I'm adapting an old scenario from SR1 (Mercurial) and that my player is a Technomancian, we have been already confronted to  some moments where we lacked some rules or required some clarifications.

Moreover, during the time I studied the rules, I really felt some  need for more details about multiple topics. So here is a list of what I really would like to read in a new book:

- A clear explanation of how all the matrix gears interact between themselves (what is a DNI, which equipment has DNI, when to use a commlink or a cyberjack, where do I put my RCC in this link, what about the technomancer contact link or RCC echo ....) and what is necessary to access different representation of the matrix  (matrix through a screen, in AR or in VR: when to use VR gloves, DNI, trodes, simsense gear, etc...)
- What happens when you sitch from AR to VR during a run in a building you are infiltrating. Some deep examples of infiltrations
- Details on how infiltration in onion servers is operated.
- Technomancer and rigging. I was disappointed that there was no mention of anything in Double Clutch
- A better explanation of Sprites. We are quite at loss sometimes on how to use them, for instance as a help on matrix search, or a help when forcing an access, or opening a backdoor
- A.I : as a menace, as an ally.
- Subdivisions of grids, GOD and demi-GODS, long distance hacking
- Gear: Commlinks, programs, decks ^^
- and a lot of useful examples
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <12-08-21/1039:05>
Quick note on Qualities: The Hacking-related perks in the Core rules are - underwhelming, to say the least (with one exeption, but Iīll safe that for the end  ::)). For the positive Qualities, the most relevant and hacker-specific is probably Hardening, but with the current VR support and for 10 Karma, I doubt that it will make the cut (well, at least it has some flavor). On the negative side, things donīt look better: Scorched has flavor potential for deckers, but for some reason, itīs almost strictly worse than AR and VR Vertigo combined. And since all 3 basically punish you for doing all of the Matrix stuff, they are just too crippling to be considered. Qualities (Negative or Positive) should be a means to add depth, but also better taylor the character for a certain playstyle. Some Suggestions:

 

Oh, one final, humble suggestion when it comes to Qualities or basically any new Egde-related perks:
Please, just design them as if Analytical Mind (or the derivatives from Double Clutch) doesnīt exist. Itīs bad enough that someone actually thought that any of these were balanced or a good idea, but at least they can just be confidently houseruled at any table with a sane GM to contain the damage. What canīt be contained behind is the scenes "design" decisions along the line of "Oh No, we donīt need more Egde Sources for Hackers, they can all get free Edge with Analytical Mind anyways :3" Stop rationalizing it. Just pretend it doesnīt exist. Donīt let the madness spread.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: MercilessMing on <12-08-21/1414:39>
Oh, one final, humble suggestion when it comes to Qualities or basically any new Egde-related perks:
Please, just design them as if Analytical Mind (or the derivatives from Double Clutch) doesnīt exist. Itīs bad enough that someone actually thought that any of these were balanced or a good idea, but at least they can just be confidently houseruled at any table with a sane GM to contain the damage. What canīt be contained behind is the scenes "design" decisions along the line of "Oh No, we donīt need more Egde Sources for Hackers, they can all get free Edge with Analytical Mind anyways :3" Stop rationalizing it. Just pretend it doesnīt exist. Donīt let the madness spread.
Q F T
See if we can move away from the feast-or-famine edge economy of hackers.  Answer the question, what is the hacker analog for situational edge gain?  How does the hacker turn the tables in their favor when up against a superior opponent?
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <12-08-21/1642:14>
what is the hacker analog for situational edge gain? 
Perhaps Hot-Sim VR against an opponent that is not?
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Hobbes on <12-13-21/1534:31>
Oh, one final, humble suggestion when it comes to Qualities or basically any new Egde-related perks:
Please, just design them as if Analytical Mind (or the derivatives from Double Clutch) doesnīt exist. Itīs bad enough that someone actually thought that any of these were balanced or a good idea, but at least they can just be confidently houseruled at any table with a sane GM to contain the damage. What canīt be contained behind is the scenes "design" decisions along the line of "Oh No, we donīt need more Egde Sources for Hackers, they can all get free Edge with Analytical Mind anyways :3" Stop rationalizing it. Just pretend it doesnīt exist. Donīt let the madness spread.
Q F T
See if we can move away from the feast-or-famine edge economy of hackers.  Answer the question, what is the hacker analog for situational edge gain?  How does the hacker turn the tables in their favor when up against a superior opponent?

There are many kinds of equipment that generate edge for about 1,000 Nuyen, give or take.  I argue that the other qualities that generate Edge are hot garbage and nobody will ever take them based on the mechanics.  Players may take them because they sound cool and don't care about the cost/benefit.  But nobody is taking Catlike or Double Jointed for 12 Karma.  Generate one Edge on a roll that'll come up twice in a campaign for 12 Karma?  Ew.  If those cost 0 karma at char gen, just took up a slot, still nobody would take them based on cost/benefit.  The rest are only a little bit better.

Analytical Mind and Attribute Mastery are costed about right, the rest are overpriced, IMO.   


Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Finstersang on <12-16-21/1739:24>
AM and its new derivatives are surely not costed right, and Iīd argue no cost for these will ever be right simply because of their terrible interactions with other mechanics (the godforsaken Edge Limits, Attack and Defense Values...). They are simply "meaning sinks", and the deepest in SR6 so far. The fact that they are also obviously better than other, more flavorfull Qualities is almost irrelevant compared to this problem. If thereīs any lesson to be learnt here, then itīs this: Make sure that new options donīt completely invalidate core mechanics. If someone would actually take these horrible AM-style qualities as a blueprint for a new must-have hacking perk, it would translate to something like "+1 Edge on every hacking test unless you already earned Edge from another source". And anyone who canīt see why thereīs a problem with that sentence - regardless of any Karma cost! - should stick to writing fluff text. Seriously. 

That being said: Yes, IMO the other, more situational Edge generators are also too expensive. 12 Karma for a situational generator of (exclusive!) Edge is not a good benchmark. And especially not for potential new Matrix-related Qualities, because these would already be situational ("when you are using the Matrix...")  and then add another restriction on top ("... and attack another Icon", "... and try to defuse a Data bomb", "... and get spotted by IC" etc.).
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: KarmaInferno on <12-18-21/1729:45>
Would love to see some of the 4E Echoes and Advanced Echoes make a re-appearance. Biowire, Acceleration, Mesh Reality, etc.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Dreamwalker on <12-24-21/1019:46>
Additional options for situational edge gain would certainly add depth to matrix interaction in contrast to rigid always-on options like analytical mind. Attaching edge gain to hot-sim VR might render it the default mode (considering its already substantial initiative advantage), so that no one gains edge once everybody transitions to hot-sim.

To offer an alternative suggestion: A more rock-paper-scissors-like approach may be to revive a subset of the old system familiarity knowledge skills (cf. SR3, Matrix, p. 24), granting edge on (certain) matrix actions performed in hosts that fall into a category covered by a corresponding system familiarity skill (e.g., public hosts, security hosts, engineering hosts, ...). Of course, the categories should be rather coarse-grained to keep their number manageable. This may also offer interesting synergies with skilljacks.

Regarding alleviating the need for certain (almost mandatory) qualities, introducing a (potentially costly) counterpart to spell sustaining foci for complex forms might be worth considering.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: KarmaInferno on <12-24-21/1609:47>
Regarding alleviating the need for certain (almost mandatory) qualities, introducing a (potentially costly) counterpart to spell sustaining foci for complex forms might be worth considering.

4E had Widgets, which I think were similar? Those would also be nice to see in 6E, yes.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: hulka on <12-28-21/1328:03>
Closer to Electronic Warfare, it may be a specialization, even a drone has a similar program, but what that actually means.
The Agent program was mentioned in earlier rules. It's not now, but why couldn't the one who has the money have a virtual guard in the PAN?
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Typhus on <01-07-22/2053:54>
For me, it would be a walkthough of the procedures to use in what order for whatever you are doing.  1 > 2 >3 Style.

To sneak into a system, use this action.  Once you are in, use the following action(s) to find the file you want, then this action to go to it.  Don't forget to look for Data Bombs with the (whatever) action.  Give people a walkthrough for how to do the most common situations so the GM and player both know how certain types of runs should go. 

We also need a good guide on system responses and how to handle those mechanically too.  Every X turns, the system takes this action, etc.

Then provide some random complications that can occur.  Anything from a wage slave working late to a glitchy piece of IC that the admin is working on in the wee hours, some suggestions for flavor so the GMs have some inspirations for throwing surprises at the players (especially good if a player is getting too lucky or has way more dice than you planned on).

Agree with suggestions for sample systems to hack.  I'd recommend having the sample systems be laid out in the pdf such that they can be printed out, one sample system per page so the GM can grab one and run with it easily for on-the-fly scenarios.

Also, easy walkthroughs of gear hacking and how to do the more complex things like snooping on comm calls, making fake comm calls, hacking bank accounts, all the stuff players try to do that doesn't have a straightforward action to it.  Help deckers specialize in gear hacking.  "If you want to hack gear to help your team, make sure you get (X) and always do (Y)". 

Help people learn to play the various roles, sort of like the rigger book did for riggers.
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: MercilessMing on <01-18-22/1247:25>
The core rules describes PANs and Hosts, but I've often needed an in-between sized network, a WAN - did 5th edition have that concept?  Could be a good place to expand on in the matrix book.  Honestly, seems like a good concept to replace team networks, and could be good for illegal network concepts, since having a Host implies significant resources, and legality.

Also I second the idea of meatspace cybercombat options.  In addition to it being too difficult to take down a device (nothing can be one-shotted), there also just isn't a lot of interesting things to do.  I mean stuff like status effects, debuffs.  Everything right now revolves around filling up a device CM to make it ever so slightly more difficult to use the device.  What if we had more specialized attacks, things that result in meaningful differences right now instead of two or three turns down the road. 
Ok I guess I'm talking about Cyberpunk 2077 quick hacks.  They have a much better fun factor than generic -1 penalty when using device.  Can we get some imagination in here?
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Hobbes on <01-18-22/1318:48>
The core rules describes PANs and Hosts, but I've often needed an in-between sized network, a WAN - did 5th edition have that concept? 

6th Edition PANs can potentially have thousands of devices in them, because you can keep nesting personal PANs.  But Riggers are particularly good for this, see the C3 unit p. 139 of Double Clutch.  Think mobile HQ/EWAR vehicle managing an area as a temporary host.  No reason a building version couldn't exist if the story calls for it.

Decent RCC and operator, EWAR programs from p. 145/146 of Double Clutch, C3 Unit, handful of EWAR and Recon Drones.... *Poof* instant high tech command center.

Hell, PC Technomancers with the right Echo can just plug in the C3 unit and probably do it even better, just stick the C3 in a handy Drone...I may have a new character to make now...
Title: Re: Matrix wish list
Post by: Xenon on <01-20-22/1531:10>
The core rules describes PANs and Hosts, but I've often needed an in-between sized network, a WAN - did 5th edition have that concept? 
In SR5 you had devices out on the grid being part of a PANs (the master device being your commlink, cyberdeck or RCC), devices out on the grid being part of a WANs (the master being a Host) or devices out on the grid just being part of the grid (all devices had their own firewall and data processing rating in 5th edition and since this edition featured a direct connection backdoor exploit many devices that could not be physically defended was typically not slaved to a host). Even if you placed your mark on a master device in a PAN or on the host protecting a WAN you would still have to also place your mark on individual devices you wanted to take control over (access per icon).

In SR6 it seem as if the intention is that most devices are part of some sort of network. While I don't think it is spelled out it seem plausible that your apartment and all the devices in it are part of your home network (or perhaps part of the building's Host network)? All electronic devices you bring with you (which could be hundreds) are probably part of your PAN. Devices in a facility you and your team are infiltrating are probably part of the host (either directly matrix facing or hidden inside the network itself). The intent also seem to be that every single device that is part of a host act as an access point for the network (that the distance to the host is measured between you and the closest physical device that is part of the network). If you gain access on anything in a network in this edition you also gain access on all devices in the entire network (access per network).


team networks
An idea here I think is to slave your PAN to the team's tech guy (which is typically a rigger, hacker, technomancer, or something similar) and then stay close enough so you may still remain connected to and protected by his RCC, cyberdeck or living persona.