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Request: Neo-Tokyo Anthropomorphic Drone Rigger

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Fedifensor

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« on: <09-04-18/2214:13> »
I'm working on some characters so my gaming group can have Shadowrun Missions ready to go when our normal RPG game falls through due to one or more missing players.  I have several character types - street samurai, decker, mage, etc...but a good rigger build has always eluded me.  The new season of Missions takes place in Neo-Tokyo, so the default build of Steel Lynx or roto-drones for combat isn't as viable.  I thought an interesting option would be a rigger that specializes into jumping into a single anthropomorphic drone, and running most of the mission from the safety of his nearby vehicle (with rigger cocoon).

Requirements:
* Legal for the Missions Neo-Tokyo campaign
* Anthropomorphic drone - I was looking at the Kenchiku-Kikai or the Direktionssekretar (the corp marketing guy making these names should be fired), but a Shiawase I-Doll could be an interesting alternative.
* High noise reduction, and any other enhancements to ensure he can use the drone remotely.
* Able to hold his own in the typical Shadowrun Missions adventure.  That means different things to different people, but from what I've seen having 12+ dice in his main skills (including one combat skill) is highly preferred.
* No Forbidden gear - the drone needs to be able to pass NTMP scrutiny, as the drone will be travelling with the other runners.  An exception can be made if the gear is able to stay hidden (for example, pistol in a cyber holster).
* High Resources is no issue, but the drone shouldn't be so expensive that one bad mission leaves the character without a drone to pilot.

I've seen a Gnome rigger before - bonus points if the drone can carry the rigger with some level of safety.  :)

PingGuy

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« Reply #1 on: <09-05-18/1501:58> »
Interestingly, there isn't much difference between the Ares Duelist and the Saeder-Krupp Direktionssekretar, at least from what I can see in Chummer.  I don't have my books with me at the moment.  The big difference is the cost, which is close to 10 times more for the one with the weird name.  If I was going to run a single drone, I'd want the most effective one I could get.  But between those two and the NeoNet Juggernaut, only the Duelist is affordable to replace.

So what about a slightly different concept.  Say you put out the money for a Direktionssekretar or a Juggernaut to jump into, you don't want to be risking that thing with every move you make.  What if you had a few Duelists operating off the programs on your RCC with Swarm, and set their standing orders to protect your main drone.  You could order them around corners or whatever so your expensive drone's head wasn't the one always taking the first shots.  You could lose like 9 of them before it would cost as much as the Direktionssekretar, and 20 or so before it would cost as much as the Juggernaut.

Of course the cost of upgrades and such will skew this a bit, but it might make more sense than just running around in an expensive drone hoping your team keeps it from getting blown up.  Alternatively you could just have a lot of Duelists and keep jumping into the next one as needed.

Fedifensor

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« Reply #2 on: <09-05-18/1517:04> »
Of course the cost of upgrades and such will skew this a bit, but it might make more sense than just running around in an expensive drone hoping your team keeps it from getting blown up.  Alternatively you could just have a lot of Duelists and keep jumping into the next one as needed.
That does bring up the question of how durable a drone can be.  My impression was that with the ability to wear metahuman armor (like Big Game Hunter + Gel Packs), the drone could take a few hits.  Also, what sort of defense pool can a Rigger manage for a drone he’s jumped into?

If the amount of fire required to drop an optimized drone is as much as it takes to drop your typical combat PC, I’m not as worried about losing the drone.  A smart rigger will start evacuating the anthropomorphic drone if the situation is dire, and send in the microdrones with high-explosive grenades instead...

PingGuy

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« Reply #3 on: <09-05-18/1656:57> »
That's a good question.  When jumped-in, you roll Reaction + Intuition for defense, as normal.  But the limit is the handling of the drone, which would be 3 for the Duelist and 4 for the Direktionssekretar.  Your soak roll would be a bit better, as the drone armor and worn armor values stack.  For the Duelist that's 4 (drone body) + 4 (drone armor) + 12 (armor jacket) without any modifications on the drone.

Now that's assuming I'm not missing something, which I could be.  But if I'm not, then the best things to upgrade are Handling, Body, and Armor.  That is assuming those can all be upgraded.
« Last Edit: <09-12-18/2124:32> by PingGuy »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <09-05-18/1709:17> »
...

Now that's assuming I'm not missing something, which I could be.  But if I'm not, then the best things to upgrade are Handling, Body, and Armor.  That is assuming those can all be upgraded.

Since this is (presumably) for the SRM Neo-Tokyo campaign, it's very relevant to mention that the Optional Drone Modification rules (R5 pg 122) are in fact mandatory for drones in SRM.  Can't use the more-permissive 'standard' vehicle modding rules to mod drones.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: <09-05-18/1717:46> »
Control Rigs boost limits.
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PingGuy

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« Reply #6 on: <09-05-18/2210:10> »
I keep forgetting that!

Fedifensor

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« Reply #7 on: <09-05-18/2225:19> »
I did some experimenting in Hero Lab, and from what I can tell the Direktionssekrettar is the best choice for a single, top-of-the-line anthropomorphic drone.

4/6 Handling
4 Speed
2 Accelleration
4 Body
4 Pilot
4/6 Sensor

Modifications:  Armor Upgrade +3, Handling Upgrade +3, Sensor Upgrade +3, Realistic Features 3, Drone Arm (right) upgraded to Strength 6, Agility 8 with cybergun (Savalette Guardian w/ external clip port) and cyberlimb optimization (Munden Quickdraw), Drone Arm (left) with cyberlimb optimization (Munden Quickdraw), 2 Drone Legs with Water Jets, Amphibious level 2.

Equipment: Sleeping Tiger with Gel Packs, Nonconductivity 5, Thermal Dampening 5

Soak: Body 4 + Armor 6 + Sleeping Tiger 15 (+5 electric) = 25 dice (30 versus electric)

Total cost: 160,085


I took Amphibious because it would be a shame to spend that much nuyen and have the drone dropped into a pool.  So, how would something like this function in play, paired with a rigger using a Control Rig 2

Myriad

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« Reply #8 on: <09-06-18/1245:11> »
That's a good question.  When jumped-in, you roll Reaction + Intuition for defense, as normal.  But the limit is the handling of the drone, which would be 3 for the Duelist and 4 for the Direktionssekretar.  Your soak roll would be a bit better, as the drone armor and worn armor values stack.  For the Duelist that's 4 (drone body) + 4 (drone armor) + 12 (armor jacket) without any modifications on the drone.

Now that's assuming I'm not missing something, which I could be.  But if I'm not, then the best things to upgrade are Handling, Body, and Armor.  That is assuming those can all be upgraded.

When jumped in or using control device, the handling it NOT the limit.  This only applies to skills, aka drones on autosofts.

PingGuy

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« Reply #9 on: <09-06-18/1320:02> »
When jumped in or using control device, the handling it NOT the limit.  This only applies to skills, aka drones on autosofts.

I didn't have the book with me when I posted that, but I did take it off the Matrix/Rigging Cheatsheet by adragon.  It does list Reaction + Intuition [Handling] as the test to use when jumped-in.  All the other tests around it are skill+stat instead of stat+stat, so maybe this was a typo or oversight.  Still, if the handling of the drone is its physical capacity for avoidance, it would make sense to use that limit in this case.  With a Control Rig boosting the limit, and with it being stat+stat to begin with, the limit might not matter much anyway.

I'll have to look at that when I reread that section in the CRB.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <09-06-18/1346:18> »
Attribute-only tests are always limitless iirc, so there shouldn't be a limit. I checked the book and it goes R+I for normal vehicle dodge, and uses a [Handling] for autonomous drones. Couldn't find an explicit thing about jumped-in.
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PingGuy

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« Reply #11 on: <09-07-18/1041:00> »
Attribute-only tests are always limitless iirc, so there shouldn't be a limit. I checked the book and it goes R+I for normal vehicle dodge, and uses a [Handling] for autonomous drones. Couldn't find an explicit thing about jumped-in.

Threads like these make me wish I had bought the PDF versions of the books, I love looking things up and figuring out puzzles.  Still I'm glad I have the physical books, it just means I have to rely on my (increasingly faulty) memory more often, or other references which can be wrong.

I did some experimenting in Hero Lab, and from what I can tell the Direktionssekrettar is the best choice for a single, top-of-the-line anthropomorphic drone.

4/6 Handling
4 Speed
2 Accelleration
4 Body
4 Pilot
4/6 Sensor

Modifications:  Armor Upgrade +3, Handling Upgrade +3, Sensor Upgrade +3, Realistic Features 3, Drone Arm (right) upgraded to Strength 6, Agility 8 with cybergun (Savalette Guardian w/ external clip port) and cyberlimb optimization (Munden Quickdraw), Drone Arm (left) with cyberlimb optimization (Munden Quickdraw), 2 Drone Legs with Water Jets, Amphibious level 2.

Equipment: Sleeping Tiger with Gel Packs, Nonconductivity 5, Thermal Dampening 5

Soak: Body 4 + Armor 6 + Sleeping Tiger 15 (+5 electric) = 25 dice (30 versus electric)

Total cost: 160,085


I took Amphibious because it would be a shame to spend that much nuyen and have the drone dropped into a pool.  So, how would something like this function in play, paired with a rigger using a Control Rig 2

I'm going to be spending more time getting familiar with drone builds and rules this weekend, so I'll play around with that build and see how it performs in tests.

Myriad

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« Reply #12 on: <09-08-18/0056:04> »
Got some time to type out some stuff, so hopefully this will help.  Unfortunately don't play Neo Tokyo rules but we play with most of the mission ones from before.

* The most cost effective drone is the MCT Kenchiki Kikkai, because it gets 8 str limbs.  This is mainly handy for techoriggers, due to being able to up limits with machine sprites.  But arguably, any rigger with 'swarm' can use this quite well.  Base cost 20k.
* The next most cost effective drone is the Horizon little buddy, because it has 1 body, and can get realistic features 4 quite easily due to this.  This opens up cool/creepy options like having a 'kid' or being a 'gnome'.  That said, it isn't able to carry much reasonably both from a str standpoint, and won't be doing too much combat typically.  Base cost 2k.
* The semi expensive, but not as expensive as the SK sekretrar, is the Shiawese Idoll.  Downgraded body makes realistic features 4 feasible.  Base cost 20k.
* The most 'reasonable' drone could arguably be the Caduceus.  Having a 'medical condition' for a nurse bot will be nice.  Arguably, the snake fingers coming free with it puts it at a much more budget efficiency than even the idoll or MCT KK.  Try not to pass for human, but instead be paraplegic, or similarly disabled.  Base cost: 16500.
* The best combat drones will probably be the ares duelist, and then following that, the sparring drone for the price you pay for either.  One having sword arms, and the other having padding make them a tough sell for realistic features beyond 1 or 2 by 'fluff', but by the rules, they could take much higher for cheaper than the other options as well.  I just find them a tough 'sell'.  Base cost 3500 or 5k.

Hope that helps, obviously, some of the drones may not mesh with 'jumped in' due to 'swarms' or the like, but all of them can benefit from a sensor array in a helmet or ballistic mask as some have poor sensor ratings.
« Last Edit: <09-08-18/0135:54> by Myriad »

PingGuy

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« Reply #13 on: <09-10-18/1111:09> »
I did some experimenting in Hero Lab, and from what I can tell the Direktionssekrettar is the best choice for a single, top-of-the-line anthropomorphic drone.

4/6 Handling
4 Speed
2 Accelleration
4 Body
4 Pilot
4/6 Sensor

Modifications:  Armor Upgrade +3, Handling Upgrade +3, Sensor Upgrade +3, Realistic Features 3, Drone Arm (right) upgraded to Strength 6, Agility 8 with cybergun (Savalette Guardian w/ external clip port) and cyberlimb optimization (Munden Quickdraw), Drone Arm (left) with cyberlimb optimization (Munden Quickdraw), 2 Drone Legs with Water Jets, Amphibious level 2.

Equipment: Sleeping Tiger with Gel Packs, Nonconductivity 5, Thermal Dampening 5

Soak: Body 4 + Armor 6 + Sleeping Tiger 15 (+5 electric) = 25 dice (30 versus electric)

Total cost: 160,085


I took Amphibious because it would be a shame to spend that much nuyen and have the drone dropped into a pool.  So, how would something like this function in play, paired with a rigger using a Control Rig 2

I spent a little time researching and playing around in Chummer.  Looked at the Direktionssekretar, the Kenchiku-Kikai, and the Duelist; all with similar modifications.  I couldn't add the water jets, must not have whatever book those are in enabled, but from the difference in cost between your build and mine, those must be pretty expensive.  Or else I missed something...

So first off let me say that I don't think 160k nuyen--for a drone you are going to be risking on every mission--is a reasonable cost.  Depending on the challenge of the run, and the way the GM calculates payouts, it could take a while to break even on the loss of it.  Furthermore, you need 5% of the cost in parts to repair it, per box of damage.  I don't know if that's the drone cost or the overall build cost, so you are talking between 2k and 8k nuyen per box of damage, and can take up to 9 of those before the drone is irreparably damaged.  Even if it's on the low end of that, 5 boxes of damage is 10k nuyen, and you could end up having to repair that much every run, or more.

Next we have to look at what you are getting for the money.  Body can not be upgraded, and it's the limit for modifications under the R5 rules, so it has some value to consider.  But looking at these prices and the dice pool effect they have, there is only one reasonable choice:

Duelist   - Body 4 - Cost   4,000
KK         - Body 5 - Cost 20,000
Direkt... - Body 4 - Cost 40,000

I tried to leverage the advantage of the KK's higher body, but its other stats are lower and the extra slots aren't enough to get it to where the Direkt or Duelist can get with their lower limit.  The extra point of body is one die on the defense soak roll, and not enough to justify the 16k cost premium over the duelist.

Speaking of things that cost 16k and aren't worth it, Realistic Features 3 has that cost across all three drones.  It's even hard to justify this on the Duelist as it adds 4x the cost of the drone for one feature.  I would just consider playing an unrealistic looking drone and put a story behind it for fun.

Next up is the condition monitor, of which you have two, but not the two that metahumans have.  You have a standard track (physical and stun both go here), and a matrix track.  One of the advantages of the really nice armor you put on this drone is that for metahumans it can reduce the lower-end physical damage to stun, splitting your intake between the two tracks depending on the mix of fire you are facing.  For the drone it all goes to that main track, which means corp-sec guys with tasers can bleed your wallet, and even scrap your drone given enough time but you can ignore the stun damage.  On the matrix side, you are vulnerable to hackers who can also brick your drone from a distance, and there's no cover to use there.  You may have the option of running silent while jumped-in, but once in combat you won't want to take any penalties and will be exposed to those attacks.  Metahumans can turn wireless off until the fun starts, but you can't, so you are vulnerable to matrix perception tests against running silent.

Once you've taken damage in combat, there will be no medkits or slap-patches that can help you.  The extended test for repairs has a duration of 1 hour with parts, and longer without them.  The Nano-Maintenance modification (if I'm thinking of the right one) takes an hour to repair one box of damage at level 1.  Even if higher levels are faster, they won't be relevant in combat.  Plus metahumans can go a few boxes past their normal condition monitor before death.  The drone drops at its max.

Relying on one drone in this case is a handicap.  For example, consider one Direkt versus four Duelists.  You are talking one condition monitor of 10 boxes versus 4 condition monitors of 10 boxes.  At repair costs based on the drone purchase price, 9 boxes on the Direkt costs 18,000 nuyen to repair.  Where as 9 boxes on all four Duelists cost 7,200 nuyen to repair.  That's four times the damage taken, with no actual difference in the drone's body/armor/worn-armor between those two models.  When you consider those differences, and that the four Duelists cost less than half of one Direkt, it just seems like the choice is obvious.

Plus the other three duelists could be covering you.  You could jump to the one with the best shot, you could coordinate them to flank people, and other things that I'm too tired to think of right now.  Of course you will be with a team, but that single point of failure with one drone could end up letting them down too.  I think the idea that you can spend a bunch of nuyen on a drone to improve its chances of survival is true to a point, but it gets way too expensive long before it makes much difference.  And there seems to be a ceiling on what can be achieved, even if you don't care about the cost.

There are other factors, the Direkt is faster--in both acceleration and speed--than the others.  That could matter more than I realize, but both can be upgraded if need be, albeit at the cost of other combat related modifications.  Noise could be a factor, but it wouldn't matter as far as drone selection.  Still it could impact your ability to use the drone while jumped in.  Running through a lobby with salt-water fish tanks?  If they are between you and the drone, you are facing one point of noise per centimeter of saltwater.  This is an extreme case, and water is the only major source of noise, but it has to be considered.

I'm not sure the agility upgrade in the cyberarm matters for being jumped in.  Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] wouldn't use it, and Pilot + Targeting Autosoft [Accuracy] wouldn't either.  I'm fuzzy on the cyberarm/leg rules for strength and agility, but I think you want those same values in all limbs to use them in any effective way.  Agility on a single arm can matter for a gun fired with one hand, but the drone rules don't seem to use that at all.

Another issue is the Smartsoft, which is the only way I know of for a drone to use the Smartgun link on a weapon.  Is there a way for you to utilize that when jumped in?  If so, great.  If not, then it's a disadvantage over just ordering the drone to do stuff for you.  Now the drone will likely have a lower Pilot skill and Targeting Autosoft than your Gunnery & Logic, so it could balance out, but it's something to think about.

Getting back to the point about noise.  This affects all drones equally, but could determine when you are gimping yourself by being jumped in versus commanding the drone remotely.  You can mod your RCC for +2 NR I believe, plus the Program that adds +2.  Does the Control Rig add +1 just like a Datajack?  If so then you can be at 5.  That's pretty good and will work for most situations.  At least until you walk into that room lined with saltwater fish tanks mentioned above.  At +1 noise per centimeter and likely 60cm of tank width, you're doing nothing worthwhile when jumped in.  That is an extreme example of course, but it shows how noise can matter when the environment is designed to use it.  A Satellite Link can cap the noise at +5, but I'm guessing those only work outdoors.

I would go cheap.  I would load your RCC up with high rating Autosofts and Swarm for when you aren't jumped in.  I would have at least 3 or 4 cheaper drones running as a pack.  You can certainly build one super drone and try to keep it alive, but you may run out of nuyen and have to come up with a new plan.  This was certainly a fun thought exercise though.
« Last Edit: <09-14-18/1530:35> by PingGuy »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <09-10-18/1132:37> »
...
I tried to leverage the advantage of the KK's higher body, but its other stats are lower and the extra slots aren't enough to get it to where the Direkt or Duelist can get with their lower limit.
...

(italicized for emphasis)

Remember: if this is for a SRM context, you MUST use the optional drone modding rules in R5 pg 122.  This means none of the drones you've discussed in the post have any available mod points.  You have to lose something to gain anything (other than explicitly stated standard upgrades) in all three examples.

« Last Edit: <09-10-18/1134:23> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.