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Team cohesion

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Coldbringer

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« on: <11-29-10/1206:07> »
So I am hitting a crossroads on my game, the team appears to be breaking down, with one player's character going off into loose cannon territory so far that the other characters would have no reason to run with him.  I am not sure how Mich of the problem OS player vs character.

I have tried common enemy type tactics to try and get everyone back on the same page, bit have had little luck.

Any other GMs had any luck with this sort of cat herding?
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FastJack

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« Reply #1 on: <11-29-10/1217:53> »
Unfortunately, sometimes the only thing you can do is give them enough rope to hang themselves. If he's always going off, have the "enemies" begin to take notice and try and exploit that weakness. I'm not sure what your definition of "loose cannon" may be, so I'm going to go with a example of the character that always charges into battle ahead of everyone else. If he continues doing this, then you set up encounters that find him consistently getting cut off from the group when he charges in, then the enemy closes the gap so that he's fighting by himself as his teammates are fighting to get to him.

Hope that helps!

The Cat

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« Reply #2 on: <11-29-10/1354:17> »
A lot of it will depend on how you define "loose cannon."

If he's playing Mr. Lone Wolf and always going off on his own, that problem works itself out with him getting himself killed.
If he refuses to stick to "the plan," that works itself out with him getting himself and/or the team killed.
If it's a personality clash (in character) crack down on the metagaming idea of "we called him to work the job because the player is sitting right there."
Quietly tell the player his character's actions are getting noticed by employers by having one or two be a bit "iffy" on his inclusion in the team due to the jobs requiring a good bit of precision and coordination.
Have his actions, if they're known, effect team pay, support and jobs.  Have contacts do the heavy lifting of informing him and his teammates they don't want to assist with X because he might bring heat back on them.
Give them a common enemy who knows how they operate and then use his propensity for going off against them.

All that said, it's really going to depend on that definition.  I've had a few "loose cannon" characters in my game, and by playing to the player and character psychology, things can be kept manageable for the GM and players.  Used properly, "loose cannons" can give you a wealth of quick runs when you're low on things for them to do, or can turn a bog-standard run into a epic campaign by getting them so sidetracked into a plot thread it takes a dozen sessions t get themselves out again.

Fizzygoo

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« Reply #3 on: <11-29-10/1432:48> »
That's the underlying, fundamental, question...

Is it the "loose cannon" character (PC) that's causing the problem or is it the player him/herself?

Basically, for me as the GM, I get to know "everything." So if a player wants to play a loose cannon (or a backstabber, or an assassin out to get another player, or a mole in the team, etc.) then they have to run it by me, let me be privy as to what they want to do/accomplish, so that I can weave it into the overall story of the game. And with playing any of those parts the player gets told, "this is going to piss off other players, not just their characters, so we better have real good reason for introducing it." Where "good reason" explicitly means, "it's going to be a hell of a lot of fun for everyone when the story plays out."

Look at every good action movie. If there is a loose cannon in the movie then he (typically male characters) is either the protagonist, the single hero of the story who has to go his own way to get the job done because the other good guys are either too inept or bound by the laws, rules, etc. If it's not the protagonist the hands down it's going to be a "crew" movie and the loose cannon becomes a minor antagonist who throws a wrench in the heroes plans and in the end...he has to die. Critical Bill from "Things to Do In Denver When Your Dead," Waingro from "Heat," Gregor from "Ronin," all fit the loose cannon/backstabber role...and a loose cannon in a crew film is bad for the crew and lethal to the loose cannon.

If it's the player (regardless of the character they're playing), then that's a whole different issue. In the end it comes down to you can give them a warning/choice to either be a team member, be a loose cannon with the above GM controls, or stop playing.

I had one player once who really just wanted to hang out with everyone, but would have rather gone out drinking than play an rpg. He didn't express this to me. The group spent two game nights coming up with backgrounds (all UCAS military black-ops inserted into Seattle to be used as the military saw fit during the Renraku Arcology shutdown). I wrote up a detailed "briefing document" on all the issues they may face. There was a lot of effort put into this by everyone.

Then the first run: Find a decker, bring him in for interrogation. The team found where he lived; in the second story apartment of an old converted Victorian in Bellevue. The trouble player (who no one was aware was going to be trouble yet) and another team member head in, up the stairs and station themselves outside the door. The other players were outside, watching for an escape. The two inside break down the door, flash grenade, then rush in. The trouble player heads to the computer room, while the other player heads to the bedroom. In the bedroom the other player notices a fireman's pole in the closet, with a locked "manhole" like portal in the floor, and radios the information to the group. The trouble player notices that the decker's "computer desk" has video feeds coming from security cameras outside, and that there is a timer, counting down, 7. 6..., "One action left, what do you do?" I ask the trouble player (there was still one more round after the current one before the bomb was going to go off). "I run out of there," he says. "Do you say anything to the other player?" I ask. He says, "no." Do you use your comlink to let him know anything? It's just a free action, you have those." "No." Trouble player makes it out. With the info about the fireman's pole from the other player, the rest of the team focuses on the first floor and find the decker sneaking out. Just as the other player gets near the door to exit the apartment (he stayed in character, didn't act on information he didn't have)...boom.

Later I talked to the player, found out he was just in it to hang out. So we decided to hang out on other nights.

The only thing a loose cannon can hit is team morale. (at least non-GM sanctioned loose cannons).
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Critias

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« Reply #4 on: <11-29-10/1548:28> »
Just talk to the player and see what's going on.  There are so, so, many GMing issues that can be solved without a single NPC being involved, a single die being rolled, or a single rulebook being opened -- simply by communicating with your players friend-to-friend, instead of GM-to-player, every once in a while.

Don't worry about corporate security, or street gangers, or the Yakuza, or anything else, for a few minutes.  Worry about your buddy who might not know he's being a potential disruption to the game and other peoples' good time.  Talk to him.  Ask him why he's acting like he's acting in-game, ask him if it's his character or him that's being frustrating (or frustrated), and find our what's up.  Ask what he's not liking about working with the group, ask what he's losing interest in around the other players, ask if there's something about the game -- or even just his character -- he's not enjoying any more, and see what you guys can do together to fix it.

Coldbringer

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« Reply #5 on: <11-30-10/2015:31> »
Figuring out where the player being the problem vs the character being the problem is the sticky part. As far as being a loose cannon he tends to start stuff that gets every one else in trouble be it in combat or in an RP encounter, and then run off when consequences start to happen.Taunting the cops who were about to let you go, being reckless with area of effect weapons and spell.

The other players and my self have been giving him the heads up when he is about to walk over the edge, but again he is not fond of consequences, and complains we are inhibiting him playing his character.

 
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Bradd

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« Reply #6 on: <11-30-10/2031:50> »
In my experience, that's a pretty strong sign that the player is the problem, not the character. If you say, "Hey man, we're not having fun with that," a reasonable person responds, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'll rein it in a bit, that OK?" When the response is "DON'T GET YOUR PEANUT BUTTER IN MY CHOCOLATE!" there's a good bit you're dealing with a jerkass. Because frankly, only jerkasses chose to play jerkass characters and insist on sticking it to everyone even when they're not having fun with it.

FastJack

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« Reply #7 on: <11-30-10/2328:05> »
In my experience, that's a pretty strong sign that the player is the problem, not the character. If you say, "Hey man, we're not having fun with that," a reasonable person responds, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'll rein it in a bit, that OK?" When the response is "DON'T GET YOUR PEANUT BUTTER IN MY CHOCOLATE!" there's a good bit you're dealing with a jerkass. Because frankly, only jerkasses chose to play jerkass characters and insist on sticking it to everyone even when they're not having fun with it.
The verbiage was very elucidated, even if it was more colloquial than I would have preferred. ;)

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #8 on: <12-01-10/0156:58> »
Remember that "that's what my character would do" has limited strength as a defense because the player chose to play a character that would detract from everyone else's fun.

Bradd

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« Reply #9 on: <12-01-10/0431:41> »
Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at too.

That said, it's easy to get defensive when the other players seem to be ganging up or picking on you. It's a good idea to talk to the player about it calmly, away from the table, to make it clear that you aren't just harshing on him, but that you have real concerns. If he still clings to the defense that he's just being "in character," then make it clear that such characters aren't welcome. Hopefully the guy will be able to compromise.

Mystic

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« Reply #10 on: <12-02-10/0416:59> »
One of the biggest problems I have had when running a game is that often in my group the game we play is a compromise. Not once have we had a game that EVERYONE wanted to play, so it is majority rules.

I already have had to literaly kick one person out and ban another from my table because they had to be a baby about it. Makes teaching a new game hard as hell and saps the fun away really damn quick. Over the years, I find my patience for those who blatantly try and ruin it for everyone else or try and trash a campaign so we will move on to another wears thin. Only reason I cant give the boot more is because we no longer game at my place.

All I ask is if you dont like the game, at least be respectful to those who do and be patient. What you dont like, others may, and vice versa. Just because you may not like SR and want to be a DnD munchkin or Vampire freak dosent mean you have right to be a jackwagon to the rest of us.

Sorry, slight rant and raw nerve.  :-[

I feel better now...oooooooohhhhmmmmmmmmmm
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Kot

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« Reply #11 on: <12-02-10/0757:29> »
Hey, i get it. I'm a scary GM sometimes too. But i have a rule - i don't play with people i don't like (even people i don't have an opinion of have a hard time to convince me). So i won't have to kick people out. But if that happens sometime, i will. And they will suffer from a huge boot-sole shaped social scar for the rest of their petty lives.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."

FastJack

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« Reply #12 on: <12-02-10/0902:29> »
Problem is, it's not always that the people you don't like. My best mates and me don't agree on the best games. I'm a SR junkie, but a few of my friends have never even heard of Dunkelzahn and have no interest in the game. That doesn't mean that we don't get along, just that we have different likes.

Kot

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« Reply #13 on: <12-02-10/1040:53> »
Jack, De gustibus non disputandum est. And even tha's not a real obstacle, since i've managed to get my friends to play my Mage campaign, and they liked it enough to play another one. Some things are just worth sharing. I like sharing. Especially if i share things i really like - like SR. I've got a fellow SR junkie in my group, one medium-enthusiastic old-tme friend and fellow ED player, and two people of which one is a generalist (he plays everything), and the other never touched SR before. That's two street shamans (a bad-luck magnet ork, and a magpie-girl), one mafia hitman, and one rigger-smuggler. As a team they're going to be put together by a fixer, and i'm expecting 'team cohesion' problems on the first few sessions. I'll just be prepared to deal with them game-wise and by discussing them as a group.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."

FastJack

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« Reply #14 on: <12-02-10/1150:25> »
Too true, but I have some friends where some like 4E D&D and others hate it with a passion. They're all good people, but just don't agree on this one front.