Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: JoeNapalm on <05-16-11/1758:51>

Title: Armor Bonuses
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-16-11/1758:51>

So, if I am reading this right - a helmet that is +1/+2 add those values to my overall armor rating, unlike layering armor which would only take the highest value?

If this is the case, do my Protective Covers (+2/+2) add two to my overall armor rating? Seems sort of add, since they only cover my eyes, but if the Helmet works that way, why wouldn't the Covers? And if they don't work that way, how DO they work and where does it explain it?

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Mäx on <05-16-11/1830:52>
"Protective Covers: These can protect both cyber and normal eyes,
and confer both Ballistic and Impact armor bonuses of +2 to the eye
area"
So no it doesn't add +2 to your overall armor, it just add +2 if someone shoots you in the eye,atleast thats how i would read that.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Ryo on <05-16-11/1832:28>
The book is pretty explicit about it.

Quote from: SR4A, page 340
Protective Covers: These can protect both cyber and normal eyes, and confer both Ballistic and Impact armor bonuses of +2 to the eye area.

Emphasis mine. Unlike helmets, Protective Covers only apply to your eyes. So if anybody makes a Called Shot to your eyes, you get extra armor against that shot.

Edit:

Ninja'd by Max.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-16-11/1901:02>

I get that, and I logically agree with it.

But if you put on a PPP System Vitals Protector, which only covers your groin, why would that apply to your overall armor but the eye covers NOT count?

It seems like everything ELSE that is notated as +N/+N in terms of armor works one way, but the Protective Covers do not. Doesn't make sense from a system-level point of view.

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Ryo on <05-16-11/1909:35>
Surface area. Your eyes are such a small target, that they can't conceivably be involved in the majority of attacks you take. Plus, PPP armor is attached to existing armor as piecemeal, so it makes some sense for it to modify your existing armor rating.

But yeah, This is one of those cases where reality and game mechanics clash. I personally don't understand why the protective covers exist, other than for aesthetic purposes. How often does your GM have people call shots to your eyes?
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Charybdis on <05-16-11/1913:39>

I get that, and I logically agree with it.

But if you put on a PPP System Vitals Protector, which only covers your groin, why would that apply to your overall armor but the eye covers NOT count?

It seems like everything ELSE that is notated as +N/+N in terms of armor works one way, but the Protective Covers do not. Doesn't make sense from a system-level point of view.

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

You're reading too much into it.

The PPP is a full body-armour system that increases in rating depending on how much of it you use. The pieces that are actually utilised don't really matter if they're in particular areas, but provide a general armour bonus to your body depending on how well covered you are.

Note: The Vitals protector isn't just a jock-strap (or whatever the terminology is in the States). It can also include wrap around kevlar mesh and small plates to protect lower-torso organs such as kidney and spleen etc

Helmets and shields are also designed to enhance existing body armour, which is why they give a full armour-rating +N/+N bonus

The Protective Covers are an independent, tiny area and only provide a very specific bonus to that single area (and are not part of any full body armour system).

Does that help?

Edit: D'oh! Ninja'ed by Ryo :P
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-16-11/1926:28>
Surface area. Your eyes are such a small target, that they can't conceivably be involved in the majority of attacks you take. Plus, PPP armor is attached to existing armor as piecemeal, so it makes some sense for it to modify your existing armor rating.

But yeah, This is one of those cases where reality and game mechanics clash. I personally don't understand why the protective covers exist, other than for aesthetic purposes. How often does your GM have people call shots to your eyes?


This.

I don't want to be confused as trying to munchkin this - I'm actually just trying to make my brain process the way it's expressed. *Grin* The +2 vs simply a "2" rating makes me want to place it in the same category as piece-meal armor (some of which includes bits with surface areas not really that much bigger than a pair of sunglasses).

Personally, I'm choosing not to count it, but I almost feel like it's cheating, as it would cause me encumbrance.

*sigh*

Thanks, all. At least I know where I can got to get answers - even when I post on the wrong board!

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Charybdis on <05-16-11/2040:34>
This.

I don't want to be confused as trying to munchkin this - I'm actually just trying to make my brain process the way it's expressed. *Grin* The +2 vs simply a "2" rating makes me want to place it in the same category as piece-meal armor (some of which includes bits with surface areas not really that much bigger than a pair of sunglasses).

Query: What piecemeal armour is 'not much bigger than a pair of sunglasses'?
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-16-11/2058:01>

Poorly expressed on my part.

The point being that, in a firefight were most professionals are trying to put rounds center-mass, a pair of shin-guards are about as equally useless as a pair of sunglasses.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Charybdis on <05-16-11/2131:53>
Poorly expressed on my part.

The point being that, in a firefight were most professionals are trying to put rounds center-mass, a pair of shin-guards are about as equally useless as a pair of sunglasses.
No worries.

But back to the over-thinking part... Armour in Shadowrun is meant to be an abstract'ish value. Otherwise, we get involved into the real-life (and infinitely detailed) variables of:
- Bullet angle of impact (body armour is more effective if bullet hits at a shallow angle)
- Exact caliber  (eg not all SMG's are created equal)
- Grainage and bullet shape
- etc etc

Personally, when playing once per fortnight, this level of detail isn't for me or my group. But if you're a bunch of Gun Nuts (and there are a few on the boards here, quite literally :P ) maybe you want to enhance these options as house rules. Whatever floats your boat :)
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-16-11/2234:37>
Well, don't forget, Shadowrun began at the tail end of the Eighties.  Shin guards were cool 8) back then.  The guards will hesitate to shoot someone as cool as you.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Mäx on <05-17-11/0058:08>
I don't want to be confused as trying to munchkin this - I'm actually just trying to make my brain process the way it's expressed. *Grin* The +2 vs simply a "2" rating makes me want to place it in the same category as piece-meal armor (some of which includes bits with surface areas not really that much bigger than a pair of sunglasses).
Its +2 as it really is an addition, but as it specifically says that +2 is only for eye area, other armors that are addative are just general armor, not for a specifig location.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Medicineman on <05-17-11/0444:21>
Protective Covers and its Armor are stupid because there is no Hit Location in SR.
So they contradict these Rules. I wouldn't use them for Armor but as an additional space for "Eyeware" like Smart or low light or Flash compensation. Maybe a +1 Bonus vs Teargas

with a contradictory Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: FastJack on <05-17-11/0812:08>
Protective Covers and its Armor are stupid because there is no Hit Location in SR.
So they contradict these Rules. I wouldn't use them for Armor but as an additional space for "Eyeware" like Smart or low light or Flash compensation. Maybe a +1 Bonus vs Teargas

with a contradictory Dance
Medicineman
Actually, I look at it that it would come up if someone were to try a called shot on the target's head. Yes, there's no hit location in SR4 (which I am thankful for every day -- evil glare at old Mechwarrior RPG), but in certain situations, it's easy to toss it in.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Medicineman on <05-17-11/0924:29>
But wouldn't it urge Players to try for called shot to the Eyes,Ears,Throat Nuts,Nipple (Nadja Daviar !),whatever ?
It shoves the Player in the wrong direction ImO

HokaHow
Medicineman
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: FastJack on <05-17-11/0948:58>
Nope, because they can only say something like "head" or "arm" for called shots per SR4A. But if someone's wearing protective covers on their eyes, I'd add the bonuses for games I GM.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-17-11/0957:45>

That raises an interesting question...

How does armor degrade when it is layered?

ARSENAL introduces a bunch of component based armor - if I'm wearing my spiffy Steampunk armor outfit and I take a round that goes through - does it degrade each layer?

Logically, it would, but the way I read the rules, it's treated as a single piece of armor, so it would only lose one point, yes?

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: FastJack on <05-17-11/1138:31>
Degradation usually goes from outer to inner. The first layer would degrade until it becomes worthless, then the next layer.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-17-11/1221:32>

Ah. That makes sense.

Maybe I shouldn't make my outer layer my Sustaining Focus for my Armor spell, then...heh.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: John Shull on <05-17-11/1410:20>
I'd hate to get a Sustaining Focus shoot off my person.  Those things are not cheap to replace or bond with.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <05-17-11/1555:03>
Skin flap bioware.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-17-11/1640:59>
Tooth Compartments.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: CanRay on <05-17-11/1849:55>
Well, don't forget, Shadowrun began at the tail end of the Eighties.  Shin guards were cool 8) back then.  The guards will hesitate to shoot someone as cool as you.
"He looks so...  20th Century!" - Escape from L.A.

...

Damnit, now I want to know what "Snake" Plissken's P2.0 rating is!
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-17-11/1904:33>
Been ages since I've seen that.  I heard the first one was pretty good.

I thought it was interesting, some of the WWI/II uniforms apparently had a reinforced knee, to kneel on.  Cover bonus?
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: Raventrickster on <05-20-11/1501:10>
WWII?  Heck a lot of modern units both military and police will use some sort of knee and or elbow pads to protect the joints if they have to dive for cover on hard surfaces.  There is also at least one company out there that makes BDU pants with neoprene rubber knee pad inserts built right in.
Title: Re: Armor Bonuses
Post by: CanRay on <05-20-11/1825:21>
A Emergency Services/Security Company Supply Store just opened up near where I live, I'll have to check out their stock more in depth for ideas, I think.

I already have an order for some Tanker Boots with them.  Only been looking for those for 15-years or so.