[Sendaz]

Depends on the friend

If you have ever been on a run with Mungo after he been down to Casa de Fuego y Especias™ (known for it's Indian Tex Mex Fusion) earlier that day, you would actually prefer being hit with regular grenades to the gassers he drops.

 

[Hobbes]

      The nerf we apply in our home game is a bit more drastic   We just give them free PP at a rate of .5 PP per magic.  Then make them aspected instead of giving them full mage abilities.   
       This "Aspected Adept"  makes them more of a hybrid instead of the "Mage Plus" that Mystic Adepts are right now.  Additionally, it gives the summoner and caster types a cool distinct flavor.  We have one in our group now and he's definitely NOT underpowered.  Interestingly, the Ways from SG become even more attractive to these guys for the power discounts.

That's not bad.  I may include that as an option for my next game.  Personally, I'm going to be cutting the number of spells a Mystic Adept gets compared to a mage and buffing up the Sorcery/Conjuring/Enchanting Adepts.  I'd go with FasterN8's "Aspected Adepts" getting the same as Magicians and a PP cost 5 Karma.  Give players a straight choice between starting spells, starting PP, and Magic skills.   


My Modified priorities:
Priority A:  Magician: Magic 6, two Rating 5 Magical skills, 10 spells
                  Mystic Adept: Magic 6, two Rating 5 Magical skills, 6 spells
                  Technomancer: Resonance 6, two Rating 5 Resonance skills, 5 complex forms; 5 Karma of registered Sprites
Priority B: Magician: Magic 4, two Rating 4 Magical skills, 7 spells
                  Mystic Adept: Magic 4, two Rating 4 Magical skills, 3 spells
                  Technomancer: Resonance 4, two Rating 4 Resonance skills, 2 complex forms; 3 Karma Registered Sprites
                  Adept: Magic 6, one Rating 4 Active skill
                  Aspected Magician: Magic 6, one Rating 6 Magical skill group; 10 Spells or 35 Karma of Bound Spirits
Magic C:  Magician: Magic 3, 5 spells
                  Mystic Adept: Magic 3, 1 spell
                 Technomancer: Resonance 3, 1 complex form; 1 Karma Registered Sprite
                 Adept: Magic 4, one Rating 2 Active skill
                 Aspected Magician: Magic 4, three rating 3 magic skills from one group; 7 spells or 25 Karma of Bound Spirits
Magic D:  Aspected Magician:Magic 2
                 Adept: Magic 2

[Marcus]

I applaud your choice for aspected, i'm not sold that MAYSADs needed a nerf, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[living]

Tbh not MA need a nerf, but magic in general. Sustaining spells without Los, edge initiative spell and to less possibilities to defend against manaball and even less against spirit powers.

[Hobbes]

I applaud your choice for aspected, i'm not sold that MAYSADs needed a nerf, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Mage minus Astral Projection minus 30 Karma plus 6 Power Points > Mage.  By a non-trivial amount IMO.  Lowering the starting spells puts MySads starting point in the ballpark of regular mages.  And if a MySad decides to advance like a regular mage they can. 

[adzling]

Well said Hobbes, y we ban me at our table

I applaud your choice for aspected, i'm not sold that MAYSADs needed a nerf, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Mage minus Astral Projection minus 30 Karma plus 6 Power Points > Mage.  By a non-trivial amount IMO.  Lowering the starting spells puts MySads starting point in the ballpark of regular mages.  And if a MySad decides to advance like a regular mage they can.

[Facemage]

Mage minus Astral Projection minus 30 Karma plus 6 Power Points > Mage.  By a non-trivial amount IMO.

This is true IMO. But also this: Sam > mage. The order of mysad and sam is unclear. I think that they are balanced if reward money are higher than in RAW. So, mage needs buffs.

[Whiskeyjack]

But also this: Sam > mage.

How do you figure?

[All4BigGuns]

Mage minus Astral Projection minus 30 Karma plus 6 Power Points > Mage.

Objectively untrue except in extremely niche cases of a specific category of mage archetypes built specifically to do so by a player with an extreme level of system mastery.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... geez, you people.  This is a primary reaction of 'I don't like them, therefore I penalize them.'  Mystic adepts have a niche that lies between adept and mage.  Like eeeeevery other character, they are powerful if a) built to highlight their uniqueness, b) used in situations that highlight that strength of build, and c) don't get into situations where their weaknesses are brought into play.

This is a team game, y'know?

[Hibiki54]

I do not really see a problem with Mystic Adepts. They are fine as they are (post errata).

In reality, chromed characters are more front loaded in terms of dice pool throwing and pure damage soaking ability. Their only downside is saving their nuyen to get Betaware versions of their gear.

MysAds, from what I have seen, tend to be more versatile in terms of their ability to handle OpFor mundane and magical threats, with the addition of having more IPs than mundanes on average. They gain more strength in the long run as they gain metamagics and quicken spells. It usually takes 70+ karma and investment into a power focus when MysAds completely surpass chromed monsters.

[living]

Mage minus Astral Projection minus 30 Karma plus 6 Power Points > Mage.  By a non-trivial amount IMO.

This is true IMO. But also this: Sam > mage. The order of mysad and sam is unclear. I think that they are balanced if reward money are higher than in RAW. So, mage needs buffs.

mages need a buff? what kind of builds are you playing?

mages > mysad >> cybered ki > combat decker > sam > rigger / techno

that includs flexibility and power level. magic is by far the strongest source in this game. you can do every thing with just one skill. including more dmg then a sam, more defense, more initiative, mind control, crowd control. + very very strong summons + best scouting. and still you are the swiss-army-knife.

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah in no way do I think astral projection is better than 6 PP even if those PP cost karma. In no way.

The real question is, "is 30 karma better than 6 PP" and the answer is, "it totally depends what you spend it on." But even then generally I would say no unless you only buy total garbage powers.

[adzling]

6pp is far superior to 30 karma unless you specifically buy crappy adept powers with those pp like 3 dimensional memory of whatever that useless power is (why not just take a farking picture with your contact lens?).

Everything being equal there is no comparison.

[living]

hard to compare... depends on the karma level and much more.

astral scouting is unique and very mighty. sure its not a combat stat, but nothing else can really substitute astral scouting.

at chargen, the mysad need to take magicians way if he wants access to centering. and he needs to buy of 30 karma for the pp.
the mage can choose a powerfokus 3 and focused concentration 5 (for pushing his willpower from 5 to 9. or if you prefere intuition, if thats your second drain stat. 4 more initiative, 4 more dodge). so the mage got 3 dices more for casting and 4 for drain (and higher willpower which is nice against other mages). the mysad got 7,5 power points. if he doesnt spend them on magic resist, my bet would be on the mage (higher initiative, higher dmg spells, higher buffs etc).