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Shock Gloves/Knucks + Penetrating Strike

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Ogrepot

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« Reply #30 on: <02-25-15/1337:56> »
I didn't say that you could not make a weapon focus that used unarmed combat, knucks would work just fine.
The way i understand it, hands are not considered weapons and you cannot tattoo a weapon focus.
Moreover, you would have to consider the damage the elemental weapon power would inflict on you when you power the tattoo, that would be fun burning your own hand or shocking yourself...

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #31 on: <02-25-15/1618:43> »
So, using Elemental Weapon for an unarmed weapon foci, instead of elemental strike, would be weird.  But I still don't see a problem, you're effectively enhancing the tattoo, not your fist, now.  But you spent .5 PP to have a power that only works when you have the focus active, when you could have spent .5 PP to have something work whenever you punch something.  There would be no reason to do that. 

But you clearly can have weapon foci tattoos.

It's not clear where I stand.  True you can make various foci from tattoos but as far as I am concerned it still has to pass the common sense test and in my book weapon foci tattoos do not.

Well, then you're essentially saying "just cuz".

You can make a tattoo out of any foci.  You put one on your hand and you're enchanting one the same way you'd enchant a knife.  I really don't see the problem. 

You can make a weapon foci out of cyber spurs.  You in fact could enchant an entire cyberarm!

You can have a tattoo of Justin Beiber that enhances healing magic. 

Making a weapon foci out of a tattoo makes about as much sense as anything else.  Literally, a wizard did it. 

I didn't say that you could not make a weapon focus that used unarmed combat, knucks would work just fine.
The way i understand it, hands are not considered weapons and you cannot tattoo a weapon focus.
Moreover, you would have to consider the damage the elemental weapon power would inflict on you when you power the tattoo, that would be fun burning your own hand or shocking yourself...

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that a fist is not a weapon, nor why an elemental weapon power on such would burn you, any more than it would used with say, a pair of Knucks. (which are, y'know, wrapped around your fingers)  But who cares, when it would make no sense to do so, you'd just get Elemental Strike instead?  Which also doesn't burn you.  (Or save your .5 PP for something better, because they're both dumb powers that don't do much)

« Last Edit: <02-25-15/1645:06> by Sir_Prometheus »

jim1701

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« Reply #32 on: <02-25-15/1657:41> »
So, using Elemental Weapon for an unarmed weapon foci, instead of elemental strike, would be weird.  But I still don't see a problem, you're effectively enhancing the tattoo, not your fist, now.  But you spent .5 PP to have a power that only works when you have the focus active, when you could have spent .5 PP to have something work whenever you punch something.  There would be no reason to do that. 

But you clearly can have weapon foci tattoos.

It's not clear where I stand.  True you can make various foci from tattoos but as far as I am concerned it still has to pass the common sense test and in my book weapon foci tattoos do not.

Well, then you're essentially saying "just cuz".

You can make a tattoo out of any foci.  You put one on your hand and you're enchanting one the same way you'd enchant a knife.  I really don't see the problem. 

You can make a weapon foci out of cyber spurs.  You in fact could enchant an entire cyberarm!

You can have a tattoo of Justin Beiber that enhances healing magic. 

Making a weapon foci out of a tattoo makes about as much sense as anything else.  Literally, a wizard did it. 

I didn't say that you could not make a weapon focus that used unarmed combat, knucks would work just fine.
The way i understand it, hands are not considered weapons and you cannot tattoo a weapon focus.
Moreover, you would have to consider the damage the elemental weapon power would inflict on you when you power the tattoo, that would be fun burning your own hand or shocking yourself...

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that a fist is not a weapon, nor why an elemental weapon power on such would burn you, any more than it would used with say, a pair of Knucks. (which are, y'know, wrapped around your fingers)  But who cares, when it would make no sense to do so, you'd just get Elemental Strike instead?  Which also doesn't burn you.  (Or save your .5 PP for something better, because they're both dumb powers that don't do much)

It is not "just cuz".  Weapon foci are a special case.  They are specifically melee weapons and while fists do melee damage they are not melee weapons as understood in the game.  If you disagree, that's awesome but I disagree with you. 

MijRai

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« Reply #33 on: <02-25-15/1701:53> »
I'm going with Jim on this interpretation. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Namikaze

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« Reply #34 on: <02-25-15/1704:25> »
Prometheus has actually had this argument already on the forums.  As a result of that argument, the thread was locked and several people got banned.  I wouldn't play into it any more if I were you guys.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #35 on: <02-26-15/2117:00> »
Prometheus has actually had this argument already on the forums.  As a result of that argument, the thread was locked and several people got banned.  I wouldn't play into it any more if I were you guys.

No?  I didn't.  You must be thinking of a different thread.

Namikaze

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« Reply #36 on: <02-26-15/2156:05> »
To be perfectly clear: I was warning people not to engage in a flame war that would result in bans and more locked threads.  To show justification for my warning, here are three threads, all about similar topics, all of which resulted in bans and thread locks:

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17204.0
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17493.0
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17531.0

Look, I'm not interested in trying to smear your reputation, Prometheus.  You do that fine on your own.  What I am interested in, is keeping discourse active, threads unlocked, and people from being banned.  And history has shown that engaging you in debates quickly turns the debates into personal attacks, and results in punitive actions.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #37 on: <02-26-15/2235:21> »
Yeah, that was specifically about Elemental Strike, not weapon foci tattoos.  You seem to actively be tryign to stir up trouble, and if anything you're going to get this thread locked.  Go away please. 

gradivus

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« Reply #38 on: <02-26-15/2254:56> »
My 2 cents...fists are weapons.
Having said that, I completely understand the people who have the opposite view.
For me, I go with whatever the GM who is running the game says.
Less angst that way.
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Tarislar

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« Reply #39 on: <02-26-15/2322:26> »
Here's my 2 cents.

Definition of "Weapon"
Quote
any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon
I don't see, Hand, Foot, or Forehead listed.
Nor would I call a body part an "Instrument or Device", nor would I say that attack or defense is its primary use.
A chair is not a weapon, I can improvise it as a club, but it is not a weapon.  Ditto a body part.

While it is true that some Foci can be done as Tattoos, Weapon Foci are not one of them.
Weapon Foci as stated on Pg.320 and quoted by others above ALWAYS has the form of a melee weapon.
CRB Pg.423 lists a whole page of "Melee Weapons" on the "Melee Weapons" chart.  Hands, Feet, Foreheads are all not listed there.

While I can see someone tattooing their hands with magic, to me, that would be a Killing Hands or Penetrating Strike Qi Focus.
I don't see any way to make "your hands" into a "Weapon Focus" by the rules.


Namikaze

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« Reply #40 on: <02-26-15/2332:51> »
I agree, Tarislar.  A "weapon" is anything that isn't part of your body.  At least, in terms of roleplaying games.  That's just the way it's generally been in every single RPG ever.  There have been exceptions, such as in D&D were certain monk-specific weapons were considered "unarmed" for certain purposes.  Even in those cases they were weapons, they just got treated as unarmed for certain things.  I would say that the purpose of the physical adept's badass "hands" powers are all about enhancing unarmed attacks - stun gloves and knucks aren't specifically listed as exceptions, so they're still weapons.  Because the topic of stacking weapons with unarmed attacks from physical adept powers keeps coming up, I'd say we could use some dev feedback on the intent.

I'd be fine if someone were to say:

Knucks at +1 to unarmed attacks, and attacks with Knucks are treated as Unarmed Attacks.  Stun gloves are only to be used with a Touch-only Attack using the Unarmed Combat skill.

And honestly, any combination of those types of things would be beneficial.  As it is, the fluff seems to describe stun gloves as being used with punches, which then automatically makes everyone go "ooh, I can use that with my Penetrating Strike/Elemental Strike/Killing Hands."  And in my opinion, to derive that kind of combination from a little line of fluff that seems wildly out of place with the rest of the text is like ignoring the forest for the trees.
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Medicineman

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« Reply #41 on: <02-27-15/0243:32> »
Quote
My 2 cents...fists are weapons.
According to Sifu Bruce Lee Your whole Body is a Weapon (or should be one) but thats not what the Rules Say
Thats why its call UNARMED Attack ;)

with a Dance in Memoriam Bruce Lee
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #42 on: <02-27-15/1109:33> »
It has a dmg code, it has an accuracy (physical limit), you can hurt people with it.  That makes it a weapon. 

Moreover, having a tattoo that's analogous to having a magic sword is kinda cool.  Why wouldn't you want that?

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #43 on: <02-27-15/1724:04> »
Quote
My 2 cents...fists are weapons.
According to Sifu Bruce Lee Your whole Body is a Weapon (or should be one) but thats not what the Rules Say
Thats why its call UNARMED Attack ;)

with a Dance in Memoriam Bruce Lee
Medicineman

Also, unless you are a double amputee, obviously you are armed.  You can never be unarmed without surgery. 

(point being that semantics may not be the best way to resolve this)

Tarislar

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« Reply #44 on: <02-27-15/1831:18> »
It has a dmg code, it has an accuracy (physical limit), you can hurt people with it.  That makes it a weapon.   
So does a broken bottle, but I'm pretty sure it can't be a weapon focus either......... at least not one that will last very long.