[Xenon]

I don't think the intention is to dump stat agility and then get a 9 agility cyber arm.

Or two cyber feet with a total of +6 Armor.

[MadBear]

As the OP's questions have been answered, I guess it's ok to go off topic now...
I agree with All4BigGuns on this one. I know it's RAW, but this rule allows players to deliberately dump stat STR and AGL, knowing they can cheese up an arm or two to compensate. The fact that arms don't affect limits is nothing but the barest nod to balance.
I also strongly, vehemently, disagree that maxed out limbs are an 'integral part of the chromed street sam build'. The only people who make that claim are the same ones who think there is only way to build each archetype, with carefully min/maxed stats. All their characters end up as carbon copy clones of each other. Does 'carbon copy' even make sense anymore? Why not 'cut and paste' clones of each other... yeah, I like that better. My point is, I don't think every street sam should have Wired Reflexes II, Muscle Replacement II, and two maxed out cyberlimbs; they all carry an Ares Alpha and an Ares Predator, wear an Armored Jacket with Helmet. Show some creativity! There are plenty of perfectly effective builds that don't rely on maxed out limbs to be effective. Well, unless you consider anything less than maximum ineffective.
The point of cyberarms is to increase your stats, yes, but not to allow stat dumping.
In my opinion, cyberarms should only Customize up to your current stat, be that 4 or 6(9). I think they need to be tailored to suit your frame, not grossly exceed it. Once you've Customized them, THEN you can Enhance on top of that. My was allows for a much higher upper end build(for those cheese STR6 Muscle Replacement III Cut-And-Paste street sams, but eliminates the stat dumping AGL 1(9) cheese. And since cost seems to be the only real limiting factor on cuberarms, my way requires a lot of resources to get into the top tier stats, as you need both Muscle Replacement or similar ware, AND Customization.

[Michael Chandra]

In my opinion, cyberarms should only Customize up to your current stat, be that 4 or 6(9). I think they need to be tailored to suit your frame, not grossly exceed it.

Given the costs already paid for Cyberlimbs, such an act would utterly destroy cyberlimbs. I pay 72k for Agi 9, they pay 99k, and I get a movement rate boost from it.

If you want to prevent abuse, the GM has every right to veto abusive builds. Screwing over people who aren't abusing the system isn't helping.

[martinchaen]

To the OP;
Feel free to ignore the cries of All4BigGuns' arguments about cheese at your own convenience. Your proposed character is completely rules legal, and just because a vocal few have issues with the way cyberlimbs work according to the rules does not make your choice any less valid.

What All4BigGuns and MadBear are stating are their own opinions, not the rules. There, you have been warned.

[opinion]
The point about cyberlimbs not affecting limits is still a good one, though, and in and of itself should be more than sufficient to prevent stat dumping. A character with a physical limit of 1 or 2 is not going to be very good at sneaking, something which almost every shadowrunner might need to do at some point. I think it's ludicrous that some people keep bringing up characters that obviously exploit the system as examples for why the system needs to change, when such abuse can clearly be prevented by GMs who have a problem with said abuse or avoided entirely with house rules. But that's just me
[/opinion]

[WellsIDidIt]

If you had a Strength 1 or Agility 1, why on earth would you not replace your natural limbs with cyberware?

Sure, you might be able to train and get there naturally, but cyberware is quicker and easier. If there is one thing we know about society, it's that a ton of people are much interested in quick and easy than hard work to get somewhere.

As for dump stats. Cyberlimbs don't allow you to dump stat without consequence. Even without the limit rule (which helps balance greatly on a Str 1 character), you still only have a high Agi/Str with that arm. That's only a handful of skills. To get that stat applicable everywhere, you'd have to replace pretty much your whole body. Essence and nuyen balance that out.

I also strongly, vehemently, disagree that maxed out limbs are an 'integral part of the chromed street sam build'.

What exactly does chrome mean to you, because cyberlimbs is where that term came from for ware. Cyberlimbs aren't integral to making a combat character, but they have been integral to every editions street sam archetype. Every edition uses them to get higher combat stats. This isn't new, it is the way the game and setting has been designed.

As for creativity, cyberlimbs aren't the "maximum" choice. They are the easiest and fastest choice. Look at the rules. As a human, I can get my agility up to 6 (7 with Exceptional Att) and 10 with augmentations (11 with Exception Att). With cyberlimbs I am capped at 6(7) for the arm and only +3 from enhancements, making the total 9 (10). You're always one point below maximum performance.

[ZeConster]

To those who think cyberlimbs should only be customizable up to your natural attribute value: if you're okay with nerfing cyberlimbs to the point where they can only go to +3, when both RAW and RAI are "they can go beyond +4, unlike regular augmentations", be my guest, go against designer intent and houserule it. But there's ways to prevent cyberlimb cheese that don't require being a jerk about it.
My proposed houserule offers a solution which prevents cheesing without taking a nerf bat to cyberlimbs out of pure spite:

• You're not allowed to take Exceptional Attribute unless you either hardcap or softcap the attribute.
• If you have an attribute at its racial minimum, your cyberlimb can only be customized up to [minimum + 2] (examples: 1->3 for most cases, 5->7 for Troll Strength).
• If you have an attribute at [racial minimum + 1], your cyberlimb can only be customized up to [minimum + 5] (examples: 2->6 for most cases, 6->10 for Troll Strength).
• If you have an attribute at [racial minimum + 2] or more, your cyberlimb functions normally (customization up to natural maximum, maximum enhancement is +3).

[All4BigGuns]

(you claim that raising attributes or shoving armor in them is "cheese.")

No, I say that using the cyber limbs to have a low natural Agility while getting the benefits of a maxed out Agility is cheese. I have no problem with the armor portion of it (I realize that whether you have 12 armor or 35 armor, there is still a chance of getting one-shot ganked--had it happen with 22 a couple times).

To the OP;
Feel free to ignore the cries of All4BigGuns' arguments about cheese at your own convenience. Your proposed character is completely rules legal, and just because a vocal few have issues with the way cyberlimbs work according to the rules does not make your choice any less valid.

What All4BigGuns and MadBear are stating are their own opinions, not the rules. There, you have been warned.

Neither of us claimed that the limbs did work any different than they do. We were stating that the limbs are a massive abuse-fest waiting to happen in their current state.

[WellsIDidIt]

How do they get the benefits of maxed out agility? I'm only seeing them get partial benefits of maxed out agility. Lop off enough parts to get limbs in every slots, and they have to sacrifice a lot when it comes right down to it.

I'm not seeing the abuse, maybe you should crunch the numbers of it.

[Xenon]

You don't see the abuse of a mental focused character (like a decker) with 1 in agility getting a agility 9 cyberarm which let him become a master marksman?

Would be more resonable if you could only customize a cyberlimb up to two more than your natural rating or so (but still limited  by your metatype maximum) and then up to 3 points of enhancements ontop of that. That way agility 4 character can still get agility 6(9) cyberarm, but agility 1 character can only get a agility 3(6) cyberarm.

Would also be resonable that you could buy the cyberlimb that start at three less than your metatype maximum and not three less of human maximum (so that  a troll buying a cyberlimb made for trolls does not have to start out at strength 3 which is far from even the minimum troll strength, instead a troll cyberlimb would start out at 7)


Dermal Plating, Orthoskin, Magic Armor etc etc are all rather balanced. a single cyberlimb foot with +3 armor is better than them all. combined. there is no balance there.

Would also be more resonable if you can only enhance a foot / hand with 1 point per enhancement type and a partial limb with a maximum of 2 points. That way you can not get +6 armor on two feet, only +2 - but it will not affect people that get full limbs.




But all of the above are just ideas for house rules. According to RAW it is perfectly legal to get a 9 agility right arm even if you have natural agility 1. It is also legal to get +9 armor from two feet and a left hand.

[faket15]

The rouse rule I'm using for cyberlimb attributes right now is really simple and, IMO, more reasonable and balanced than both RAW and most "fixes" I'm used to see here, that nerf cyberlimbs to the point they are pointless as a tactical choice. In my table, cyberlimbs follow the maximum augmented attribute rule like everything else in the game. Yes, simple as that, the rule is the same regardless of your attributes or the way you modify them.
For cyberlimb armor I'm using the same limits as Xenon (1 armor for hand/feet, 2 for partial limbs).

[Michael Chandra]

I still think it's a needless nerf, and to be frank you're still making them rather worthless unless someone wants to use their Capacity to the full tactical optimum. For purely stats they're worthless like that.

[WellsIDidIt]

You don't see the abuse of a mental focused character (like a decker) with 1 in agility getting a agility 9 cyberarm which let him become a master marksman?

No, I don't.  He is only good at things that involve that one arm (pistols through SMGs for shooting). He's still a bumbling klutz for everything else. He's paying a good chunk of change and some essence for a bit of a combat boost. Combat boosts are the easiest to get, how is this a problem?

If he's running right, he shouldn't be having to shoot too often anyway, making the investment even worse.

As for armor, I see it the opposite way around. Dermal Plating and Orthoskin should be cheaper. Keep in mind though, if you start pumping three armor in each of your hands/feet, you're limiting yourself on the stats for those hands/feet. In the end, it all evens out balance wise. I haven't seen the armor, or stats, upset the balance in any point really. Usually the supposed "Arm O' Doom" builds can't hold their own in combat much better than their non-Arm O' Doom versions.

[All4BigGuns]

I still think it's a needless nerf, and to be frank you're still making them rather worthless unless someone wants to use their Capacity to the full tactical optimum. For purely stats they're worthless like that.

That is the entire point. Getting the cyber limbs should be to get the other stuff put into them not because you can still shoot like a special forces sniper with a 1 Agility.

That said, I can potentially see, now, allowing 1 point higher than the natural attribute value. This would kill the abusive uses and at the same time kill the gripes about only being able to get +3 enhance instead of +4 (though upping enhancement to 4 maximum instead of 3 would be better).

[WellsIDidIt]

Well if he has a special forces sniper skill set, he'd still be able to shoot pretty well with a 1 agility to be honest. Assuming he takes the time to aim (like snipers do) and uses his smart link, an Agility 1 special forces sniper (giving a 9 skill here to be accurate) could still be rolling 12 dice or 4 average hits.

So state of the art cutting edge gear (which a capped out cyberlimb is supposed to be) shouldn't equal great skill? I think you're playing the wrong game. There is a reason the genre is called cyberpunk, not, skill punk.

You seem to be basing your opinion on gut reaction rather than any actual balance or math still.

[All4BigGuns]

Funny how the biggest and most stalwart defenders of the ludicrous price hikes on a number of other implants are also the most stalwart defenders of what has been the single largest loophole exploit in the entire game for going on at least two editions now.

Lets put it this way, if cyber limbs are somehow not a problem in their current state, that is more than proof that the Mystic Adept "errata" was even more unnecessary.