[Dracain]

I do agree that Chunky Salsa IS rather much now that grenades actually do decent damage. After all, they reduce at the same rate but have a far greater base damage, so do much more damage. Even a single wallbounce already puts the damage at 100% lethal. So why not use the overlapping explosions rule instead of the chunky salsa rule? In other words, don't just add the reduced damage, instead half additional damage and improve the AP instead. This means that if the frag grenade explodes 2m away and the wall is 2m behind you, you don't take 16+12 = 28P/+5, but instead take 16+12/2=22P/+4.

I just wanted to say that I really like this rule, and will be using it at least until the grenade rules are cleared up a bit, and maybe even after, depending.  Thank you very much. 

[Mirikon]

Even more so since grenades can be hacked now.

Not Motion Sensor grenades, and when thrown those only hit 1d6 Scatter on a miss and go off at once. I like how the damage code is big now, but I'm not that fond of an undodgeable thing getting tossed into a single wall and becoming a party killer.

Well, I'm not so nice, I'll admit. If the party has done something that they're getting grenades thrown at them, and they don't practice basic tactics (such as "Don't group together where a single grenade can kill you all"), then I tend to take a Darwinist approach to it. Same if I'm a player facing that situation. Though to be fair, as a player, I try to keep situations where grenades are being thrown to a minimum. Explosions bring unwanted attention of all the worst kinds.

If a GM is lobbing grenades at a party, they've usually done something to deserve it. Even if that 'something' is being inside a Zero Zone without permission. They aren't called Zero Zones because they are giving away free ice cream, you know? And if a party has been having fun with grenades themselves, they should expect the HTR guys to want to get in on the action as well.

Really, I see no need for a change in the rules. This all boils down to one simple truth: Don't start an arms race with the DM. You will lose. More than that, dying is a learning experience. From some of my deaths, I've learned very important lessons. "Don't try to take on two giants solo when you're a level 5 wizard." "Don't try to turn the Tarrasque into a bunny." "Don't put a portal above the toxic sludge at the bottom of the room." "Don't cast a fireball with a 20' radius inside a 20'x20' room." "Don't stay all in one spot when someone on the other side has grenades." "Don't mouth off to a dragon." And so on.

[Michael Chandra]

I'm not nice either. But I'm not cruel either, and honestly grenades are now too powerful a tool for me to use against players, and too powerful for players to be allowed to use without immediately starting an arms race. I don't like that. Not to mention there's official adventures where they're used, at which point it's impossible for the GMs to avoid them. Take Silver Platter, every enemy in there had several.

See with MilSpec armor, Battle Rifles, Tanks, Combat Helicopters: Sure, hello arms race. But grenades? How are those an arms race? And am I really not allowed a rule that actually gives a party a chance at surviving them when there happens to be a wall nearby?

[RHat]

I'm not nice either. But I'm not cruel either, and honestly grenades are now too powerful a tool for me to use against players, and too powerful for players to be allowed to use without immediately starting an arms race. I don't like that. Not to mention there's official adventures where they're used, at which point it's impossible for the GMs to avoid them. Take Silver Platter, every enemy in there had several.

See with MilSpec armor, Battle Rifles, Tanks, Combat Helicopters: Sure, hello arms race. But grenades? How are those an arms race? And am I really not allowed a rule that actually gives a party a chance at surviving them when there happens to be a wall nearby?

Might be you'd be more satisfied if you just straight out diminished the damage codes for grenades.

[Sendaz]

Or just have all the corps lowball their construction work inside the buildings with really cheap materials so that wall behind them blows out nicely instead of rebounding the blast.

[Michael Chandra]

That'd work yes, plascrete can manage but weaker stuff won't.

[Mirikon]

I'm not nice either. But I'm not cruel either, and honestly grenades are now too powerful a tool for me to use against players, and too powerful for players to be allowed to use without immediately starting an arms race. I don't like that. Not to mention there's official adventures where they're used, at which point it's impossible for the GMs to avoid them. Take Silver Platter, every enemy in there had several.

See with MilSpec armor, Battle Rifles, Tanks, Combat Helicopters: Sure, hello arms race. But grenades? How are those an arms race? And am I really not allowed a rule that actually gives a party a chance at surviving them when there happens to be a wall nearby?

Well, there are a few key components you need to consider here.

1) Even if you take out grenades entirely, having everyone gather close together is just BEGGING for an overcast fireball to be dropped on your position.

2) I come from a D&D background. Once you get past a certain level, there are such things as 'Save or Die' (or the equivalent, such as Dominate Monster). No evasion, no nothing. Just roll your save, and hope the dice gods favor you, otherwise you're looking at a Raise Dead scroll, or rolling up a new character.

3) Is chunky salsa really all that much worse compared to an overcast Mob Mind?

4) All walls are not created equal. High security facilities will likely have plascrete. Offices will probably have drywall. Old buildings will have brick and mortar.

5) Shadowrun has always been a very deadly game, and grenades/rockets/mortars have always been one of the deadlier parts of it.

All in all, much of the danger of grenades can be lessened by simply using smart tactics, and not getting pinned down in situations where you're going to be experiencing chunky salsa. If players make stupid moves (and I consider grouping together in one point a stupid move given the existence of grenades and AOE spells) then they deserve to be smacked around. Don't go out of your way to drive them into a plascrete room and chunk the grenades in, but if they do something like that, then stupidity should be fatal. If you want to teach them an object lesson on this without killing them all, throw in flash-bangs. Yes, Flash-bangs get the chunky salsa rules, as well, so tossing one or two of those in an enclosed space can teach a party that they don't want to be in an enclosed space with grenades, when they wake up in a holding cell, with an 'offer they can't refuse'.

[Michael Chandra]

I don't think Flashbangs should do Chunky Salsa either. I consider them more an AoE spell.

What I dislike about "just make them split up" is that a single grenade will still kill a player without defense possible. And there are not many attacks that will do this, especially when your attacker is just a lousy fail who can barely manage 1 hit. Once the enemy has a dicepool good enough to not glitch up that Motion Sensor grenade, it will always be "NPC throws grenade, player dies" if the walls hold up.

[Mirikon]

So what? Take that out, and its like bowling with the bumpers in the gutters to keep the little kids from rolling straight gutter balls. You might as well just go all the way and turn on god mode. What you're talking about is downgrading Shadowrun from an R to a PG rating.

As for flashbangs, you can houserule them to not do chunky salsa, but under the rules, they're no different from other grenades.

The thing is, you're trying to baby the PCs too much, Michael. Am I saying toss grenades every chance you get? Of course not. But there's no reason to take it easy on them. Play the NPCs like beings with intelligence and training appropriate to their stats, instead of mooks to be mowed down by the PCs. Sometimes this means that the PCs will die horribly, and you might not even get in the door. Hell, in one of the adventures in Corporate Intrigue, some of the suggested security measures before you even get in to fight the elite MCT guards and the technomancer cyborgs are things like monowire strung between landscaping, 'flowers' that spray Seven-7, and pop-up LMGs with ExEx ammo. Welcome to the Zero Zone.

Play your NPCs realistically. If a grenade going off isn't going to wreck the place (or endanger those containers with the biohazard markings, etc.), then throw a grenade if they have them, and they don't care about live prisoners. If it gets to the point where the PCs are having a stand-up fight, instead of firing on the move as they try to get the hell out of dodge, then they've already lost. Even the Pink Mohawk crowd emphasizes overwhelming the enemy as quick as possible. Also remember that the force the enemy brings to bear will reflect what the opposition is using. If you have a troll with dual LMGs, six combat drones, and a mage who's summoning high force fire spirits, then yes, throw the grenades. If the players are using silenced weapons and stealth tactics, then grenades are a 'last resort' weapon, or possibly a dead man's switch.

[ZeConster]

One could argue there's a pretty big difference between not babying your players and randomly and undeservedly murdering one of their characters. This is Shadowrun, after all, not Tomb of Horrors.

[Mirikon]

ICA=ICC. (Or, for those who don't know what it means, In Character Actions = In Character Consequences)

You go and assault a Yakuza headquarters, or a corporate lab, or whatever, you should expect them to use lethal force against you. Those are the consequences of your actions. The moment it turned into an assault instead of a stealth run, there is no 'randomly' or 'undeservedly' about it. Those are the consequences of your actions in bringing things to that point. Randomly and undeservedly would be showing up to the initial meet, and Mr. Johnson whipping out a grenade launcher.

[Michael Chandra]

So what? Take that out, and its like bowling with the bumpers in the gutters to keep the little kids from rolling straight gutter balls. You might as well just go all the way and turn on god mode. What you're talking about is downgrading Shadowrun from an R to a PG rating.

If your opinion is that because I am unwilling to completely murder a PC with something they cannot defend against in any way, I am babying the players, providing them with God Mode and downrating Shadowrun from risky to 'PG', then honestly there is no debate here. This amount of ridicule was completely uncalled for and there is no debating with someone who prefers contempt over decent arguments.

I am fine with you having your own playstyle. But do not ridicule me just for having my own GM style, and do not suggest I would not make the players face decent opposition and the consequences of their acts, because I have said NOTHING supporting that blatant lie. Acting as if I'm spoiling the players by not agreeing with a cheap motion sensor grenade in an enclosed environment butchering any PC it gets tossed at, is not reasonable in any way. And you making up fake arguments to ridicule me, just to support your GM approach, is way out of line. I have NEVER said players would not face consequences for their acts. I simply have stated I think chunky salsa and no dodge rules are too powerful now that grenades are as lethal as they should be.

Might I suggest that, before you judge me purely on the Grenade topics and go way over the top, you read (or recall, as you have posted in some of the topics) the posts I have made at SRT and SRU regarding matters such as Oversummoning, Quickened Spells, Buff-builds, players wanting to run in Seattle with MilSpec Armor and Battle Rifles, Sticky Fingered players, Heavy-Armored players, Turn To Goo, Notoriety and so on?

[ZeConster]

You go and assault a Yakuza headquarters, or a corporate lab, or whatever, you should expect them to use lethal force against you. Those are the consequences of your actions. The moment it turned into an assault instead of a stealth run, there is no 'randomly' or 'undeservedly' about it.

So you agree then that grenades are too powerful to use unless the players really, really deserved it? Because if so, this seems to boil down to "you shouldn't use grenades against players unless they deserved it" versus "if you use grenades against players, they deserved it".

[Dracain]

I think the problem people have with grenades isn't that they're powerful and highly dangerous.  I think the problem is that they are "you die now, no you do not get a roll".  Just giving a defense roll of some sort would generally balance it out, and give people a chance to not die the second some mook throws a grenade. 

[Mirikon]

You go and assault a Yakuza headquarters, or a corporate lab, or whatever, you should expect them to use lethal force against you. Those are the consequences of your actions. The moment it turned into an assault instead of a stealth run, there is no 'randomly' or 'undeservedly' about it.

So you agree then that grenades are too powerful to use unless the players really, really deserved it? Because if so, this seems to boil down to "you shouldn't use grenades against players unless they deserved it" versus "if you use grenades against players, they deserved it".

There are a lot of things that are too powerful to be used unless the players deserve it. I would never put players on the other side of a gauss gun unless they'd been flashing the milspec hardware or were going into a high security area where those were part of the defenses. Grenades I'm a bit more liberal with, though I tend to avoid throwing them except when tactics dictate it. Security forces try to avoid blowing holes in the place they're defending, naturally, but if someone's got them pinned down with the machine gun, or other tactics that would warrant such actions, then yes, grenades will be incoming. If you're all grouped together where a single grenade can take you out, you deserve it for terminal stupidity. If you start in on the third clip of ammo and you aren't hightailing it to your exit, you deserve what happens. If you brought milspec anything, you deserve what happens. If you threw grenades or AOE spells first, you deserve what happens. If you are in a Zero Zone, you deserve what happens. If you said 'No' to Lofwyr, you deserve what happens. If you killed half the security force, you deserve what happens. And so on.

I think the problem people have with grenades isn't that they're powerful and highly dangerous.  I think the problem is that they are "you die now, no you do not get a roll".  Just giving a defense roll of some sort would generally balance it out, and give people a chance to not die the second some mook throws a grenade. 

Grenades are quite survivable, especially with higher Armor bonuses, as long as you don't get caught in a small plascrete room with them. Especially if you use edge, or your mage has a spirit who makes use of the Accident power, or your hacker has fun with people's eyes, or... well, you get the point. The key to surviving a motion sensor grenade is to always be aware of the situation. That means you avoid long bottlenecks where someone could blast you with impunity, or other 'kill zones'. That means you avoid grouping together and making yourself an attractive target for grenades. That means if possible, you get up in their face, so they can't use grenades without blowing themselves up. That means you set up distractions (like a drone using suppressive fire) to keep the bad guys behind cover. Simply put, it is the difference between being a professional badass and a punk with a gun.