[Dangersaurus]

Flashbangs are designed to be non-lethal. It's sort of the point. The explosion is about as strong as a cherry bomb or .357 blank.

If you want to kill someone and are in a position to throw a lethal grenade, don't waste time blinding them.

@samoth, this is the first time I've ever heard a concussive grenade called a flashbang. I have heard/seen the reverse, especially from OWS agitprop.

[Volomon]

Isn't there an easier way to figure damage other than whipping out a calculator?  Like why don't we just use a flat multiplier x the amount of walls that fail to be brought down?  Otherwise the rule is a tad bit insane.

If a grenade does 16.  There are two walls.  Neither goes down Body + Armor vs 16 the test is done three times one for initial blast and once each for the shockwaves because technically there not all hitting at the same time.

Alternatively 16 initial then damage divided by half so 8 vs body only armor doesn't count against shockwaves unless higher than the initial damage.  Each shock is rolled seperately.

Otherwise I think these chunky salsa rules are kind of silly.

[RHat]

Isn't there an easier way to figure damage other than whipping out a calculator?  Like why don't we just use a flat multiplier x the amount of walls that fail to be brought down?  Otherwise the rule is a tad bit insane.

The effect is that HOW enclosed the space is matters, and that it works based on the standard grenade rules (which already require that you factor for how far the blast travels before reaching the subject; the confined space rule simply has that occur more than once).

[Volomon]

Isn't there an easier way to figure damage other than whipping out a calculator?  Like why don't we just use a flat multiplier x the amount of walls that fail to be brought down?  Otherwise the rule is a tad bit insane.

The effect is that HOW enclosed the space is matters, and that it works based on the standard grenade rules (which already require that you factor for how far the blast travels before reaching the subject; the confined space rule simply has that occur more than once).

Not really because after you calculate the first blast the subsequent blast from shock you have to figure out if the shockwave then reflects again off another wall so on and so forth until it stops reflecting.  That is way to much work.  Its down right silly.  Ultimately there is a no return point if the walls hold up which they can't possibly do after a certain amount of reflections.  So you have to keep track of that as well.

So for instance 16 damage bounce off a wall 2 meters away 12 damage the other wall at this point is 5 meters away 2 more damage. So for three walls this would be 16+36+6.  All done at the same time.  This is excessive and these are not the full rules I'm using it should actually do more.

So what's the point?   Dead is dead do we really have to figure out how dead?  Are there degrees of death?  There is a point of no return.

I'm house ruling it as 16 or whatever initial damage is after meters are determined then check to see which walls remain.   For each wall remaining and within distance to cause a shockwave bounce you take DV(initial damage ÷ 2) P vs Body no armor added no need to exceed armor either to be physical, using a free action you can prone to turn this into DV(initial damage÷ 2)S vs. Body.  Simple. I think the game gives grenades to much lethality.   Tons of soldiers survive grenades in a closed environment according to these rules though they can single handedly take a tank.

[RHat]

Isn't there an easier way to figure damage other than whipping out a calculator?  Like why don't we just use a flat multiplier x the amount of walls that fail to be brought down?  Otherwise the rule is a tad bit insane.

The effect is that HOW enclosed the space is matters, and that it works based on the standard grenade rules (which already require that you factor for how far the blast travels before reaching the subject; the confined space rule simply has that occur more than once).

Not really because after you calculate the first blast the subsequent blast from shock you have to figure out if the shockwave then reflects again off another wall so on and so forth until it stops reflecting.  That is way to much work.  Its down right silly.  Ultimately there is a no return point if the walls hold up which they can't possibly do after a certain amount of reflections.  So you have to keep track of that as well.

So for instance 16 damage bounce of a wall 2 meters away 12 damage the other wall at this point is 5 meters away 2 more damage. So for three walls this would be 16+36+6.  All done at the same time.  This is excessive and this are not the full rules I'm using it should actually do more.

So what's the point? 

I'm house ruling it as 16 or whatever initial damage is after meters are determined then check to see which walls remain.   For each wall remaining and within distance to cause a shockwave bounce you take DV(initial damage ÷ 2) P vs Body no armor added no need to exceed armor either to be physical, using a free action you can prone to turn this into DV(initial damage÷ 2)S vs. Body.  Simple. I think the game gives grenades to much lethality.   Tons of soldiers survive grenades in a closed environment according to these rules though they can single handedly take a tank.

...  None of that relates to my point at all.

[Volomon]

Isn't there an easier way to figure damage other than whipping out a calculator?  Like why don't we just use a flat multiplier x the amount of walls that fail to be brought down?  Otherwise the rule is a tad bit insane.

The effect is that HOW enclosed the space is matters, and that it works based on the standard grenade rules (which already require that you factor for how far the blast travels before reaching the subject; the confined space rule simply has that occur more than once).

Not really because after you calculate the first blast the subsequent blast from shock you have to figure out if the shockwave then reflects again off another wall so on and so forth until it stops reflecting.  That is way to much work.  Its down right silly.  Ultimately there is a no return point if the walls hold up which they can't possibly do after a certain amount of reflections.  So you have to keep track of that as well.

So for instance 16 damage bounce of a wall 2 meters away 12 damage the other wall at this point is 5 meters away 2 more damage. So for three walls this would be 16+36+6.  All done at the same time.  This is excessive and this are not the full rules I'm using it should actually do more.

So what's the point? 

I'm house ruling it as 16 or whatever initial damage is after meters are determined then check to see which walls remain.   For each wall remaining and within distance to cause a shockwave bounce you take DV(initial damage ÷ 2) P vs Body no armor added no need to exceed armor either to be physical, using a free action you can prone to turn this into DV(initial damage÷ 2)S vs. Body.  Simple. I think the game gives grenades to much lethality.   Tons of soldiers survive grenades in a closed environment according to these rules though they can single handedly take a tank.

...  None of that relates to my point at all.

I was talking about grenades you were talking about grenades and this is a grenade thread, but there all not related I guess.   I see your point.  I'm pointing out that confined space or not or whatever relevant rules apply to the chunky salsa rules are a touch on the silly side.

Honestly I'm not sure what your original point was.

[RHat]

My point was that the rules, as they work presently, do two specific things that reflect the goal of them very, very well.  Which you appeared to miss, considering that you said "Not really, [a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with what I was saying)".

As for excessive, well, it's supposed to be excessive.  At a certain point, the Chunky Salsa Rule is just "don't bother calculating it, you're screwed".  It's one of those very, very high lethality elements like getting sniped while surprised.  If you don't like elements like that in your game, that's fine, but it's part of the DNA of Shadowrun that some things are simply in the "forget about it" category.

[Noble Drake]

We need the rules to work the way they current do as pertain to grenade damage... though the actual numbers involved with Barriers and how explosive affect them might need changing if any wall is actually going to hold up to a grenade blast (I may be doing the math a little wrong, but it looks like dropping a grenade inside a tank would actually blow the walls out of the tank, rather than leave the tank body mostly unaffected while demolishing everything inside).

The reason why the rules have to be how they are: The mage in milspec armor with a high force armor spell, who happens to be a troll and tougher than usual, could very easily take a grenade straight to the chest and not even blink... unless the blast had nowhere else to go.

[Michael Chandra]

Getting 19 points of Armor (which requires FBA+Helmet+Augmentation/Troll or AJ+Shield+Augm./Helmet/Troll) is really important for one big reason: It lets you take the HE damage as stun when it's a direct hit. Of course depending on how the GM does dodging blasts, it might not be that bad, but yeah, it's nice to have.

Chunky Salsa is rather easy, really. Assume most corridors are 2m wide. If the grenade explodes at your feet, it mashes into the walls at 14P/-2. For a plascrete wall this ties with the 16 Armor rating so it is Physical damage. Roll 10+16-2 dice (avg. 8, 6 when buying hits), if the remaining damage does 10+ damage the wall breaks. We're talking 6% when rolling and 0% when buying hits, so assume the Plascrete holds and bounces. That puts you at 16+12x2+8x2+4x2=instakill.

Now imagine the grenade explodes 1m in front of you. Blast doesn't bounce that much for you (since we're only dealing with 4 dimensions bouncing), so you just take the 14P/-2. Unless you're in a corner and got the wall 1m behind you. Then it's 14+10, so 24P/-2 damage. This is going to hurt and only the biggest Tank character will be able to reduce this to Stun.

Let's assume a 6x6 room. Grenade explodes in the center, player is 1m removed from the wall. Blast in his direction goes 2m, hits for 12, 1m, bounce, 1m, hits for 8, doesn't reach the other wall. The other wall is 3m, then 5m to the player, so 8m distance, this means the grenade does 0. 20P/-2 damage. A frag grenade goes 2m, 3m+1m, 3m+6m+5m, 3m+6m+6m+1m, so 16, 14, 4, 2 for one side. Other side goes 10, 8. 54P damage. In a room of 10mx10m it'd be much less.

The numbers are easy. Talk in meters, take the distance, reduce damage with 2x that for HE and 1x that for Frag. Yes this means that in an enclosed environment, fragmentation grenades are actually more lethal. HE grenades are cute but the frags do more damage at a distance. And if the space is rather small, you can just kill off the character.

So for instance 16 damage bounce off a wall 2 meters away 12 damage the other wall at this point is 5 meters away 2 more damage. So for three walls this would be 16+36+6.  All done at the same time.  This is excessive and these are not the full rules I'm using it should actually do more.

16 damage bounces 2 meters away, 2 meters back, it becomes 8 when it hits you. It becomes 0 later. Yes, with three walls we're talking 16+8x3=40P, death. Grenades are lethal when used in an enclosed environment.

I do agree that Chunky Salsa IS rather much now that grenades actually do decent damage. After all, they reduce at the same rate but have a far greater base damage, so do much more damage. Even a single wallbounce already puts the damage at 100% lethal. So why not use the overlapping explosions rule instead of the chunky salsa rule? In other words, don't just add the reduced damage, instead half additional damage and improve the AP instead. This means that if the frag grenade explodes 2m away and the wall is 2m behind you, you don't take 16+12 = 28P/+5, but instead take 16+12/2=22P/+4.

[Veggiesama]

Would it really unbalance the game if chunky salsa was simply ignored? The instakill-potential is too high without a chance to dodge. Suppressive fire rules have some options to avoid the area effect, but grenades were not similarly updated from 4th to 5th edition.

[Crunch]

Would it really unbalance the game if chunky salsa was simply ignored? The instakill-potential is too high without a chance to dodge. Suppressive fire rules have some options to avoid the area effect, but grenades were not similarly updated from 4th to 5th edition.

Nope. Honestly Chunky salsa was a popular optional rule in 4E (where grenades were markedly less lethal), but I'm not sure what the compelling argument was for bringing it into the base rules.

[Noble Drake]

Would it really unbalance the game if chunky salsa was simply ignored? The instakill-potential is too high without a chance to dodge. Suppressive fire rules have some options to avoid the area effect, but grenades were not similarly updated from 4th to 5th edition.

Nope. Honestly Chunky salsa was a popular optional rule in 4E (where grenades were markedly less lethal), but I'm not sure what the compelling argument was for bringing it into the base rules.

Chunky salsa has always been "how explosives work" in Shadowrun since as far back as I can remember (that being 2nd edition) - that's the "argument" for bringing it along into SR5.

[Mirikon]

Grenades are supposed to be nasty as hell. Fortunately, unless you're facing other runners, HTR, or better, you're not going to face too many grenades unless the DM hates you. Even more so since grenades can be hacked now. But really, this is why you don't group up in enclosed spaces. Just be thankful that magical explosions (i.e. Fireball) don't do chunky salsa, and let it be. Explosions are nasty things. At close range, you don't even need to be hit by shrapnel to die, because the shock wave alone can kill you. That's in real life, by the way, to say nothing of games. Grenades are nasty business, and they're supposed to be. If you want a less lethal game, you can always try Dungeons and Dragons. Part of what makes Shadowrun the game we all know and love is that unless you're a dragon or IE, you can die at any moment, even if you are the ultimate badass or a corporate CEO, if the dice gods hate you.

[Reaver]

I love and hate the "Chunky Salsa" rules...

As a GM you have to be careful of what you use (and let be used ) explosives for... otherwise you kill A LOT of people when it's noon in Downtown Seattle...

but, this goes both ways too... Players what start popping nades and claymores, and other "popping pretties" at/near/around the authorities can expect the heavy hitters are on the way!!

[Michael Chandra]

Even more so since grenades can be hacked now.

Not Motion Sensor grenades, and when thrown those only hit 1d6 Scatter on a miss and go off at once. I like how the damage code is big now, but I'm not that fond of an undodgeable thing getting tossed into a single wall and becoming a party killer.