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Quick Question about dice pools

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SanjuroKai

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« on: <09-16-14/0221:33> »
when designing/creating a character for 4th ed, what would be the expected dice pool for his primary/secondary roles? i.e. im making a weapons master who specializes in assault rifles/blades but has ranks in most weapons and his secondary role is B+E but im really confused with what im doing with all these numbers [even using chummer] and how to build him [completely new to SR, so is the group ill be playing with]

on top of that im helping my partner make her character. She wants to be a mage/detective, but no matter what i do i cant get her character to get anything over like 10 dice... if someone was willing to help that would be great.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why cant it get us out?"

Csjarrat

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« Reply #1 on: <09-16-14/0251:10> »
Realistically 10 dice means you'll get somewhere around 3 successes on a roll and should be the minimum dice pool for your main speciality. If you think in combat you can be taking -ve mods for range and poor visibility (smoke grenades or something) you can very easily find your 10 dice dropped to 6 or less, which is dangerously close to glitch territory.

A skill of 5 and and attribute of 5 gets 10 dice which is easy to do, even under 4th ed BP system. For a combat specialist, AGI 5 is really a starting point. Add a weapon skill at rating 5, a specialisation for another 2 and a smart gun for a further 2 and you're at 14 dice already, this is before buying stacks of muscle toner/kitted out cyber arm/3 ranks of improved skill adept power
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SanjuroKai

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« Reply #2 on: <09-16-14/0603:52> »
so basically if i can get 10-12 dice in something im doing alright, anything less than 6 isnt worth it?

i see alot of people say that they dont want low social modifiers, i take 6 dice is considered low for a pool?


also what skills would be necessary for a detective themed character?


thanks for the help
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why cant it get us out?"

ZeConster

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« Reply #3 on: <09-16-14/0817:45> »
Police, private, or Ace Ventura?

SanjuroKai

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« Reply #4 on: <09-16-14/0923:08> »
preferably private, she wants to play something similar to the paranormal detective, but something a bit more solid. Between the two of us we just get blitzed with the number crunching [400bp] and end up lackluster in everything, if we specialise in something we suck at everything else. Looking for decent spells/spell pool with detective capabilities, but my math always falls short with 5 dice pools or no skills with high magic use. Priority here would definately be spells
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why cant it get us out?"

Csjarrat

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« Reply #5 on: <09-16-14/1030:58> »
Social skills, datasearch and magical skills. Plenty of knowledge skills like forensics, chemistry and firearms to round it out a bit. High perception is a must, can't miss any clues! A good set of well connected would be helpful
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emsquared

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« Reply #6 on: <09-16-14/1932:15> »
Depends on your Primary skill-set (Spellcasting/Summoners and Hackers are gonna have lower primes than Shooter/Melee/Social peeps) but generally anything less than 12 is subpar for a 400BP Runners primary skills.

[edit] My reasoning is two-fold; by the book, an "Extreme Difficulty" target number is 4, if you can't complete an extremely difficult task in your specialty, reliably as a Runner (which mathematically is 12 dice for 50/50), then it's not a specialty, it's just something you may be able to do. Second, it's not hard to get 12 dice in anything, really you have to try not to: a Caster? 6 MAG 4 in your Skill-Group of choice (casting or summoning), plus a Rating 2 Power Focus; a Hacker? 4 in the Skill Group, Rating 5 Programs, plus Hot Sim and Codeslinger; a Face? 5 CHA 4 in the Group, First Impression and Pheromones/Kinesics; any thing AGI-related? c'mon.
« Last Edit: <09-16-14/1947:15> by emsquared »

SanjuroKai

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« Reply #7 on: <09-16-14/2322:15> »
well i lost my thumbdrive a wile ago, but ill put up the most recent iteration i have
[spoiler]
== Info ==
Elf

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 2
REA: 4
STR: 2
CHA: 7
INT: 4
LOG: 4
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                8
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         8
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         5
Matrix IP:                 2
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 1
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 1
Climbing                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 1
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Con                        : 0                      Pool: 6
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 3
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 3
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 3
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Dodge                      : 0                      Pool: 3
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 1
Etiquette                  : 0                      Pool: 6
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 3
Flight                     : 0                      Pool: 1
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Gymnastics                 : 0                      Pool: 1
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 1
Infiltration               : 0                      Pool: 1
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 6
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 6
Leadership                 : 0                      Pool: 6
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 1
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 3
Negotiation                : 0                      Pool: 6
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 2
Perception                 : 0                      Pool: 3
Pilot Ground Craft         : 0                      Pool: 3
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 3
Pistols                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Running                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 3
Spellcasting               : 6                      Pool: 13
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Swimming                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 1
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Unarmed Combat             : 0                      Pool: 1

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Contacts ==
Detective (2, 1)
Talismonger (2, 1)

== Qualities ==
Lost Loved One (Sister)
Low-Light Vision
Magician
Mentor Spirit (Dark King)
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Prejudiced (Specific, Active) (Yakuza)
Vendetta

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Black Magic, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (12))
Improved Invisibility      DV: (F2)+1
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F2)+2
Influence                  DV: (F2)+1
Levitate                   DV: (F2)+1
Manaball                   DV: (F2)+2
Mind Probe                 DV: (F2)+2
Mob Mind                   DV: (F2)+4
Powerbolt                  DV: (F2)+1
Stunbolt                   DV: (F2)-1
Trid Phantasm              DV: (F2)+3

== Commlink ==
Meta Link (1, 1, 1, 2)  Runs public
   +Vector Xim
Sony Emperor (1, 4, 6, 3) Runs Silent
   +Novatech Navi
   +Analyze Rating 4 [Copy Protection 1, Registration]
   +Browse Rating 4 [Copy Protection 1, Registration]
   +Command Rating 4 [Copy Protection 1, Registration]
   +Edit Rating 4 [Copy Protection 1, Registration]

== Gear ==
Autopicker Rating 6
Contact Lenses Rating 2
   +Flare Compensation
   +Vision Magnification
   +Skinlink
Earbuds Rating 2
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
   +Skinlink
Fake License (Private Investigator) Rating 4
Fake License (Power Focus) Rating 4
Fake License (Practice Magic) Rating 4
Fake SIN Rating 4
Glasses Rating 3
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Ultrasound
   +Image Link
   +Skinlink
Mage Sight Goggles
   +Mage Sight Cable
Micro Sensor
   +Laser Range Finder
Micro Sensor
   +Motion Sensor
Micro Sensor
   +Radio Signal Scanner Rating 6
Power Focus (Bonded Foci) Rating 2
Simrig
Sustaining Focus (Health)(Bonded Foci) Rating 3
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: <09-16-14/2333:12> by SanjuroKai »
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why cant it get us out?"

emsquared

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« Reply #8 on: <09-17-14/1422:02> »
Oof, kind of hard to believe this is a 400 BP PC.

To start with, you don't need your LOG to be that high. You're not hardly ever going to use it for anything, I'd recommend taking 2 points from that, and putting 1 ea. into REA and AGI. Both of which you'll probably use regularly.

Next, this character's skill-set (or lack thereof) makes her next to useless. Every PC should put at least 1 rank in Perception - especially a caster because you have to see your targets to effect them, next every caster needs ranks in Counterspelling and Summoning - they are just too important to your group and powerful capabilities to neglect (especially with your CHA investment). You'll probably want at least 1 rank in Assensing too, as it's a uniquely useful capability that a magician brings to the table that is hard to come by anywhere else. I also usually recommend a magician have some ranks in a Firearm so that they have something to do if they can't risk anymore Drain though this is probably low priority, and Infiltration is never a bad idea either, as staying out of fire is very important for casters. Finally, you might as well put at least 1 rank into the Influence Skill Group, with all you've put into CHA - be a back-up (or lead) Face.

You can get all this BP from a couple of places, first is to drop your EDG to 2 (enough so that you can burn a pt. to save your life), next is your Spells, pick 3 or 4 (or 5?) to get rid of - you have a bit of redundancy and niche things that are expendable IMO, plus they're cheaper in play anyway, last is of course your Y expenditures, cut back on the commlink expense and Fake Licenses and anything that isn't absolutely necessary for you to do your core functions out of the gate. Y will be less of an issue for you in play (karma is your big concern), so don't be afraid to put off purchases now, in exchange for smart karma spending now.

[edit] Now that I'm home and have my books to look at, there's a couple more things to add; Dark King sucks as a Mentor Spirit - he raises your Perception (the most easily augmented Skill in the game) and Assensing (which you didn't take), and penalizes your ability to resist damage... choose another... Also, the Active Prejudice against Yakuza is a bad choice IMHO. I wouldn't take an Active Prejudice against anyone/thing. Keep it manageable; Outspoken should suffice? Which if you changed, means you'd have to find another 5 BP in NQs.

I would recommend spending at least 60 and no more than ~80 BP on Skills, I forgot to mention Binding - with your Charisma, you're a fool to not be Binding Spirits to yourself - depending on what you want to be able to do (i.e. Influence Group, Infiltration, Firearm, etc.), to have a Skill-set that will allow you to function as a Runner.

After your two Foci (which are critically important, so make sure you paid the karma to bind them), that should leave you anywhere from 50 to 20 BP for Spells and Gear, which if you have to limit yourself to 5 or 6 spells and be a Squatter to have a functional Skill-set, that might be what you gotta do...
« Last Edit: <09-17-14/1829:49> by emsquared »

SanjuroKai

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« Reply #9 on: <09-29-14/1950:03> »
some things to clarify: this is not the most up to date version of the character, its just the only one i have on hand [ive lost my 16gb thumbdrive full of character goodness]. The reason log is so high is the base idea that the character will be a detective, but i have ~20 bp left on the build below  and cant see where to make cuts. I agree that the spells are a bit niche, but i feel it has a nice balance between usefulness and fluff. I could save some on edge, but i felt 2 was a bit low? i guess it will have to be. i guess i could also make some savings on lifestyle/equipment but im still not sure if its enough o.O
dark king isnt super amazing, but ti fits the theme/backstory. Same with the prejudice.
guess ill jsut have to see what fat i can cut.


tldr; gonna have to cut fat i guess for a workable character over a fluff character


PS the idea for the character was a spiritual detective, similar to the precon but a bit more personalized and made to keep up with the other party memebers
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why cant it get us out?"