[MercilessMing]

(I am not totally against rewarding edge during an encounter if one side is having some sort of advantage over their opponent, for example by using hot sim while the other side is not, - I just don't think it is needed to reward a point of edge every turn just because someone happen to be in hot sim...)

Same, hence why I laid out Hot > Cold > AR but I could've been more clear.  Same goes for Rigging.  Just need to decide where to land on VR mode vs non-personas.  But I've already thrown this thread too far off a tangent. 

[j2klbs]

Re: maglocks, the errata suggests: "Hacking your way past one is probably the number one use of direct connection and using Spoof Command."

But, since Spoof command can be performed with Outsider access, why would one need the direct connection?  Couldn't one just  spot the "running silently" device via a Matrix Perception test and then Spoof it without the direct connection?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Re: maglocks, the errata suggests: "Hacking your way past one is probably the number one use of direct connection and using Spoof Command."

But, since Spoof command can be performed with Outsider access, why would one need the direct connection?  Couldn't one just  spot the "running silently" device via a Matrix Perception test and then Spoof it without the direct connection?

It depends on whether the maglock is meant to interact with people who are not logged in to the host.

Consider a maglock on the main entrance of the office building vs a maglock protecting an office inside a tenant corp facility on the 4th floor of that same office building.

The maglock on the main entrance is usually unlocked during business hours, but after-hours it still has to be accessible by janitorial staff, emergency response personnel, and etc.  Either you give all these people access to the building host, or you simply have the maglock be visible from outside the building host.  In this case, the maglock is outside the "event horizon" and you don't need to be inside the host to hack it.

On the other hand, up on the 4th floor NastiCorp has leased out all the space and deep inside their little warren, there's tight access controls into some office or such.  Not only do they not want John Q Public in there, they don't even want each and every employee in there.  So for starters, that maglock is only visible when you're already inside the NastiCorp host. It's inside an event horizon, and necessitates the direct connection if you're not going to hack into the NastiCorp host first.

[Xenon]

since Spoof command can be performed with Outsider access...

Devices in this edition can be stand-alone, connected to a PAN, be on the matrix facing side of a host or they can be on the 'inside' of a host.

If they are stand alone, connected to a PAN or on the matrix facing side of a host then you can spoof commands to them without any consideration at all, but you can not take actions against icons on the 'inside' of a host unless you first enter the host (which typically require user or admin access, but not always) or use a direct connection.



Interaction - what does this include? In this case that means the only matrix action that you can directly take against any “inside” devices/icons is limited to Matrix Perception while being on the outside.


Optional rule: wireless direct connection
If you are within 10 meters of the device, can detect the device (see matrix perception), and the device is wireless enabled you can form a “wireless direct connection”

[j2klbs]

Re: maglocks, the errata suggests: "Hacking your way past one is probably the number one use of direct connection and using Spoof Command."

But, since Spoof command can be performed with Outsider access, why would one need the direct connection?  Couldn't one just  spot the "running silently" device via a Matrix Perception test and then Spoof it without the direct connection?

It depends on whether the maglock is meant to interact with people who are not logged in to the host.

Consider a maglock on the main entrance of the office building vs a maglock protecting an office inside a tenant corp facility on the 4th floor of that same office building.
<snip>

I understand your logic but respectfully suggest that interpretation is not consistent with the ground rules established earlier in the section describing what actions may be performed as an outsider.

From Banshee's guide we have ...

"Interaction - what does this include? In this case that means the only matrix action that you can directly take against any “inside” devices/icons is limited to Matrix Perception while being on the outside. All inside devices are considered to be running silent using the Host Rating+Sleaze of the Host as the opposed dice roll. To target any icon (persona, device, IC, nested sub-host, etc) on the inside you must first gain access via Brute Force, Backdoor Entry, or Direct Connection."

Earlier (page 1) of this thread I questioned the above "interaction" section and came away with the understanding that one *can* attempt to brick a device (aka Data Spike) because the Data Spike action is an Outsider action.  I was told that those limitations were for actions taken "inside" the host.  So, with respect to bricking someone's gun (a device "beyond the event horizon"), it is treated as an silent device which I can perceive and target even as an Outsider with a Matrix Perception test.

I suggest that the maglock is no different mechanically from the gun.  It is simply a "device" on a "network" which I can perceive and take "outsider" actions against (and Spoof is an outsider action).  My conclusion is that performing a Spoof against a maglock is mechanically no different from performing a Data Spike against a gun.

[Banshee]

Re: maglocks, the errata suggests: "Hacking your way past one is probably the number one use of direct connection and using Spoof Command."

But, since Spoof command can be performed with Outsider access, why would one need the direct connection?  Couldn't one just  spot the "running silently" device via a Matrix Perception test and then Spoof it without the direct connection?

It depends on whether the maglock is meant to interact with people who are not logged in to the host.

Consider a maglock on the main entrance of the office building vs a maglock protecting an office inside a tenant corp facility on the 4th floor of that same office building.
<snip>

I understand your logic but respectfully suggest that interpretation is not consistent with the ground rules established earlier in the section describing what actions may be performed as an outsider.

From Banshee's guide we have ...

"Interaction - what does this include? In this case that means the only matrix action that you can directly take against any “inside” devices/icons is limited to Matrix Perception while being on the outside. All inside devices are considered to be running silent using the Host Rating+Sleaze of the Host as the opposed dice roll. To target any icon (persona, device, IC, nested sub-host, etc) on the inside you must first gain access via Brute Force, Backdoor Entry, or Direct Connection."

Earlier (page 1) of this thread I questioned the above "interaction" section and came away with the understanding that one *can* attempt to brick a device (aka Data Spike) because the Data Spike action is an Outsider action.  I was told that those limitations were for actions taken "inside" the host.  So, with respect to bricking someone's gun (a device "beyond the event horizon"), it is treated as an silent device which I can perceive and target even as an Outsider with a Matrix Perception test.

I suggest that the maglock is no different mechanically from the gun.  It is simply a "device" on a "network" which I can perceive and take "outsider" actions against (and Spoof is an outsider action).  My conclusion is that performing a Spoof against a maglock is mechanically no different from performing a Data Spike against a gun.

You would be correct IF the maglock is not protected by being insidecs host, but if it is inside the host event horizon your only choice is to gain access to the host OR use a direct connection to the lock to bypass that event horizon

[j2klbs]

You would be correct IF the maglock is not protected by being insidecs host, but if it is inside the host event horizon your only choice is to gain access to the host OR use a direct connection to the lock to bypass that event horizon

I'm obviously not understanding the difference between the Data Spike and Spoof interactions with respect to devices.  I'm honestly trying to understand and not in any way trying to be argumentative.

Are you saying that the gun example is different because it it tied to a PAN and not a host (aka two different types of "networks")?  So, I can perform an "outsider" action across the "event horizon" if it is targeting a device in someone's PAN but not a device in a host?

Again, to me, the gun is a device also "beyond the event horizon" yet we are treating it differently.  I'm not seeing the reason that the gun and the maglock, both of which are beyond the event horizon, are rules-wise different.  I'm super grateful for your efforts to help me understand.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The question of whether an icon is an eligible target is a seperate question than what access is required for an action.

If a device (gun, maglock, can of dragon piss, etc) is part of a PAN, then it can seen so long as the PAN can be seen.

This is not also true when it comes to hosts.  If a device is slaved to a host, you usually have to first enter the host before you can even perceive that device's matrix icon.  Ergo, if you can't even perceive it, it's not an eligible target and the issue of access is a non sequitur.

That phenomenon is what I called the "event horizon".

Now, as Banshee said, it's possible for a host-slaved device to NOT be behind the event horizon.  Because rather often corps are going to want John Q Public to interact with a device yet you don't want to let everyone get inside your host in order to see the device in AR/VR so that they CAN interact with it.  Traffic Lights.  Vending Machines.  Light switches. And yes, sometimes, maglocks.

[j2klbs]

The question of whether an icon is an eligible target is a seperate question than what access is required for an action.

If a device (gun, maglock, can of dragon piss, etc) is part of a PAN, then it can seen so long as the PAN can be seen.

This is not also true when it comes to hosts.  If a device is slaved to a host, you usually have to first enter the host before you can even perceive that device's matrix icon.  Ergo, if you can't even perceive it, it's not an eligible target and the issue of access is a non sequitur.

That phenomenon is what I called the "event horizon".

Now, as Banshee said, it's possible for a host-slaved device to NOT be behind the event horizon.  Because rather often corps are going to want John Q Public to interact with a device yet you don't want to let everyone get inside your host in order to see the device in AR/VR so that they CAN interact with it.  Traffic Lights.  Vending Machines.  Light switches. And yes, sometimes, maglocks.

Okay, so, to make it abundantly clear, there are three posibilities and here's how they related to outsider actions like Data Spike and Spoof.

1. PAN - If you can see the PAN, "outsider" actions are allowed.
2. Host/Outside - "outsider" actions are allowed.
3. Host/Inside - "outsider" actions are *not* allowed - must gain access to the host first.

Follow-up re: #1.  I'm not perfectly clear on the Mungo example of what information is known about a PAN with and without a Matrix Perception test.  Since Mungo's PAN is not running silently, the PAN is obviously visible.  Would one see all the icon's/devices tied to his PAN automatically but just not know much about the details?  Or are all the devices inside a PAN also considered to be running silently as if it were a host?

[MercilessMing]

Re: maglocks, the errata suggests: "Hacking your way past one is probably the number one use of direct connection and using Spoof Command."

But, since Spoof command can be performed with Outsider access, why would one need the direct connection?  Couldn't one just  spot the "running silently" device via a Matrix Perception test and then Spoof it without the direct connection?

Basically, if I understand it correctly (and I may not), Banshee is just trying to come up with a maximum hacking distance for devices protected by hosts, while also letting you peek inside a host and have a look around at the IC and files and other virtual items without actually being in it, and protecting those icons from data spikes (outsider) that they wouldn't be able to retaliate against.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

1. Yep.
2. Yep.
3. Yep.

Follow-up re: #1.  I'm not perfectly clear on the Mungo example of what information is known about a PAN with and without a Matrix Perception test.  Since Mungo's PAN is not running silently, the PAN is obviously visible.  Would one see all the icon's/devices tied to his PAN automatically but just not know much about the details?  Or are all the devices inside a PAN also considered to be running silently as if it were a host?

Of note: PANs do not have an event horizon in the way Hosts can/do.  PANs cannot be entered, therefore you can't hide anything "inside" one.

Spotting Mungo's PAN means spotting all the devices in that PAN.  If no spotting test is necessary (i.e. Mungo is physically nearby AND is not running silent) then neither is it necessary to roll to spot devices in his PAN.

Spotting an icon means it's eligible to be targeted with matrix actions.  Information over and above "unlocking the icon so that it can be targeted by matrix actions" is covered by the Matrix Perception rules.

A successful test gives you information about the target. With a tie, you can perceive the item’s icon. A
single net hit will give you basic information, such as
device rating, or whatever name the device or icon
calls itself. Two net hits will give you more specific
information, including individual attribute ratings,
and what programs it is currently running. Additional
hits will give you more information based on what
the gamemaster wishes to reveal.

[j2klbs]

1. Yep.
2. Yep.
3. Yep.

Perfect!  Thank you so much!!!

[Xenon]

1. PAN - If you can see the PAN, "outsider" actions are allowed.
2. Host/Outside - "outsider" actions are allowed.
3. Host/Inside - "outsider" actions are *not* allowed - must gain access to the host first.

0. You also have a case where the device is stand alone and not connected to any network at all
1. Yep
2. Yep
3. Yep. You need to first either enter host (which typically require that you first gain access) or use a direct connection (which typically require physical proximity).


Which I think is what I already wrote above;

Devices in this edition can be stand-alone, connected to a PAN, be on the matrix facing side of a host or they can be on the 'inside' of a host.

If they are stand alone, connected to a PAN or on the matrix facing side of a host then you can spoof commands to them without any consideration at all, but you can not take actions against icons on the 'inside' of a host unless you first enter the host (which typically require user or admin access, but not always) or use a direct connection.

[Banshee]

The question of whether an icon is an eligible target is a seperate question than what access is required for an action.

If a device (gun, maglock, can of dragon piss, etc) is part of a PAN, then it can seen so long as the PAN can be seen.

This is not also true when it comes to hosts.  If a device is slaved to a host, you usually have to first enter the host before you can even perceive that device's matrix icon.  Ergo, if you can't even perceive it, it's not an eligible target and the issue of access is a non sequitur.

That phenomenon is what I called the "event horizon".

Now, as Banshee said, it's possible for a host-slaved device to NOT be behind the event horizon.  Because rather often corps are going to want John Q Public to interact with a device yet you don't want to let everyone get inside your host in order to see the device in AR/VR so that they CAN interact with it.  Traffic Lights.  Vending Machines.  Light switches. And yes, sometimes, maglocks.

Okay, so, to make it abundantly clear, there are three posibilities and here's how they related to outsider actions like Data Spike and Spoof.

1. PAN - If you can see the PAN, "outsider" actions are allowed.
2. Host/Outside - "outsider" actions are allowed.
3. Host/Inside - "outsider" actions are *not* allowed - must gain access to the host first.

Follow-up re: #1.  I'm not perfectly clear on the Mungo example of what information is known about a PAN with and without a Matrix Perception test.  Since Mungo's PAN is not running silently, the PAN is obviously visible.  Would one see all the icon's/devices tied to his PAN automatically but just not know much about the details?  Or are all the devices inside a PAN also considered to be running silently as if it were a host?

correct, the whole "event horizon" limitation is only related to Hosts, and as Ming stated the game mechanic purpose is to promote Host security without also making a total pain in the butt for PC's just to figure out what they are up against.

as to your follow up ... just seeing a PAN (or even a host) that is not concealed or running silent is easy and does not require any roll. You only need to roll to find out specific details, for example you would know there are multiple devices connected to it but not know what they are.
running silent is for the network and not based on devices

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

1. Yep.
2. Yep.
3. Yep.

Perfect!  Thank you so much!!!

Actually, I just realized.  Pedantically, #3 is technically "Not True".  Explanation:

3. Host/Inside - "outsider" actions are *not* allowed - must gain access to the host first.

Pedantically... ACCESS is irrelevant to the scenario.  You must ENTER the host in order to see icons that are not perceptible from outside the host. Yes, usually, you have to gain User or Admin access to perform the Enter Host matrix action.  But remember: some hosts do allow Outsider Acccess for the "Enter Host" matrix action! (namely, any host that expects John Q Public to log into it.  Online storefronts, Public Libraries, etc.)

So... it's possible to enter the host and therefore get behind the event horizon and see the icon inside, all without ever having gained increased access to that host.

Pedantically, for the answer to have accurately been "Yep!" the question would have had to have been worded as:

3. Host/Inside - "Outsider" actions are *not* allowed - must enter the host first.