[Beta]

Given enough time to look carefully I figure a mage can take a pretty good guess that it is an SMG and not a clip board (although at a quick glance 'holding a moderate sized object' or something like that.  As seen by a water spirit, on the other hand ... yah probably only weapon foci, as was clarified by the OP.

[FastJack]

And, actually:

Players should note that the meat bodies of mundanes are recognizable from astral space. If the body has been physically disguised, it would be almost impossible to recognize that person from physical appearance alone. However, all living beings have auras, each aura as unique as fingerprints or DNA patterns. An aura, once seen, can be recognized again. In such circumstances, the gamemaster may wish to have the character involved make a Perception Test against a target number and modifiers set by the gamemaster based on the circumstances and the magician's familiarity with the subject's aura.

From 3rd Edition going forward, they make no mention of determining details like race or physical details from the astral, but with the Assensing tables mentioning that you can determine where cyberware is on the individual's body, I'd say that you'd know if you were looking at a dwarf or troll. And since every astral body (mundane or magical) is as unique as DNA, you'd recognize people with a successful assensing test, IMHO.

[markelphoenix]

If Cage sneezes too hard and loses a piece of his meat body, would his essence reach 0 and auto die?

[Shinobi Killfist]

And, actually:

Players should note that the meat bodies of mundanes are recognizable from astral space. If the body has been physically disguised, it would be almost impossible to recognize that person from physical appearance alone. However, all living beings have auras, each aura as unique as fingerprints or DNA patterns. An aura, once seen, can be recognized again. In such circumstances, the gamemaster may wish to have the character involved make a Perception Test against a target number and modifiers set by the gamemaster based on the circumstances and the magician's familiarity with the subject's aura.

From 3rd Edition going forward, they make no mention of determining details like race or physical details from the astral, but with the Assensing tables mentioning that you can determine where cyberware is on the individual's body, I'd say that you'd know if you were looking at a dwarf or troll. And since every astral body (mundane or magical) is as unique as DNA, you'd recognize people with a successful assensing test, IMHO.

Well the default was it was like a mirrored world so I don't see why they would feel the nee to state the obvious.  The assumption for at least 1-3e was it looked like the real world with some modifications, if it wasn't one of those modifications you saw it mostly normally. 4e, seems it was pretty close to 1-3e it wasn't shadows and darkness but faded and indistinct, which in 1-3e I think it was supposed to feel or look like dulled out as well.  5e, I guess they changed it but call it change blindness I assumed it was still like 1-3e but just with different metaphors to describe it I had envisioned shadows as more like some comic book shadow dimension version, so it still looked like a chair but grey and dark. 6e, they just have a short blurb and its more just darkness.

As a GM it just seems to either be a lot more work to describe or end being up being  a lot less evocative of what the narrative of something as fantastical as astral projection should be. If you can nail it, its probably still evocative in a different way than earlier editions but it seems a lot harder to get there as its too narrow for my vocabulary to describe it. If I can describe charlies car in detail emphasizing how it has a aura built up through the care Charlie put into it every week I feel I can get further than if its some shadowy thing that someone loves.

[penllawen]

Sovereign casts Increase Attribute: Charisma [4 hits on 14 dice for spellcasting, 6 hits on 18 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration. He follows up with Increase Attribute: Willpower [5 hits on 14 dice for spellcasting, 8 hits on 22 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration. He finishes with Increase Reflexes [buys 2 hits, 7 hits on 22 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration.

I wanted to recap this, but instead of considering what Lormyr's players actually rolled, I want to look at probabilities. So consider Sovereign from Lormyr's example above. I'll recap his important stats here:

Base drain resist is Cha 9 + Wil 5 = 14 dice
Sorcery(Spellcasting) = 6(+2)
Magic = 6
Essence = 6

First, he casts Increase Attribute against Charisma. This rolls Sorcery + Magic (5-Essence), giving +1 to the selected stat per net hit. The drain is 3, +1 per hit beyond the first

Spellcasting test: 14 dice vs (-1) gives 89% chance of 3 hits or more (and can buy with autohits if GM agrees), plus the 1 "free hit" from Essence. He's only one die away from buying a guaranteed success that gives the maximum +4 to the stat.

Now the drain resistance test. Lormyr appears to allow the +4 Increase Attribute to be included in the drain roll, which feels slightly generous but is (I think) RAW based on the "all spell effects happen even if Drain kills the mage". But let's be extra harsh and say that it doesn't, though. That would make Sovereign roll 14 dice vs (6), giving drain chance of:

0 boxes: 31% chance Sovereign resists all drain
1 box: 52%
2 boxes: 74%
3 boxes: 89% (can buy this with autohits if GM agrees)

If you allow the Increase Attribute to apply to the drain test, then the 31% chance of no drain becomes 59%.

Now repeat with a second casting of Increase Attribute, but with +4 dice against drain now due to the first Increase Attribute being in effect. No sustain penalty due to Focused Concentration. I'll assume no wound penalty; there's only an 11% chance of 3+ boxes of Stun damage from the first spell by the "harsh" version of the rules.

Spellcasting: the same 89% chance of getting 3+ hits as before.

Drain: 18 dice vs (6): 59% chance of taking no drain at all. 97% chance of taking 3 or fewer boxes. If you follow the "Increase Attribute takes effect before drain" reading, there's a 79% of no drain at all on this second spell.

Now for the Increase Reflexes. Same Sorcery + Magic (5-Essence) test, with each hit granting +1 Reaction and +1 dice. Base Drain Value is higher - 5, +1 for each net hit beyond the first.

Spellcasting is the exact same 14 dice test, but let's break the probabilities down a little more:

Chance of 0 hits: 0.3% (this still gives +1 Reaction / +1d6)
Chance of 1 hit: 2.4% (+2 Reaction / +2d6)
Chance of 2 hits: 7.8% (+3 Reaction / +3d6)
Chance of 3+ hits: 89% (+4 Reaction / +4d6) (max) (can also buy this with autohits if GM agrees)

So there's a good chance that Sovereign can get the max +4 here. Now consider the drain resistance chances, with 22 dice, against a maximum drain of 8 (5 base, +3 for applying 4 hits; this assumes the "free hit" from Essence is included in the drain calculation although that isn't clear to me.)

Chance of 8+ hits: 45% (with no drain, this would give Sovereign 14+5d6 initiative and 1 Major/5 Minor actions)
Chance of 7 hits: 17.8%
Chance of 6 hits: 15.6%
Chance of 5+ hits: guaranteed (can buy this)

With three chain casts -- at most, ten seconds of prep time - Sovereign can all but guarantee casting all three, with reaction time equivalent to Wired Reflexes II (which costs 150k nuyen and 2 essence.) If he's unlucky, he might take a couple of boxes of Stun damage. But if he's just a little bit lucky or prepared to use some Edge or reagents, he can pretty easily get up to the same level as Wired Reflexes IV (400k nuyen, 4 Essence.)

You tastes may vary, but if I'm a Street Samurai at this table who's invested in massive amounts of expensive 'ware to get the same effect, I am feeling short-changed at this point.

[markelphoenix]

Sovereign casts Increase Attribute: Charisma [4 hits on 14 dice for spellcasting, 6 hits on 18 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration. He follows up with Increase Attribute: Willpower [5 hits on 14 dice for spellcasting, 8 hits on 22 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration. He finishes with Increase Reflexes [buys 2 hits, 7 hits on 22 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration.

I wanted to recap this, but instead of considering what Lormyr's players actually rolled, I want to look at probabilities. So consider Sovereign from Lormyr's example above. I'll recap his important stats here:

Base drain resist is Cha 9 + Wil 5 = 14 dice
Sorcery(Spellcasting) = 6(+2)
Magic = 6
Essence = 6

First, he casts Increase Attribute against Charisma. This rolls Sorcery + Magic (5-Essence), giving +1 to the selected stat per net hit. The drain is 3, +1 per hit beyond the first

Spellcasting test: 14 dice vs (-1) gives 89% chance of 3 hits or more (and can buy with autohits if GM agrees), plus the 1 "free hit" from Essence. He's only one die away from buying a guaranteed success that gives the maximum +4 to the stat.

Now the drain resistance test. Lormyr appears to allow the +4 Increase Attribute to be included in the drain roll, which feels slightly generous but is (I think) RAW based on the "all spell effects happen even if Drain kills the mage". But let's be extra harsh and say that it doesn't, though. That would make Sovereign roll 14 dice vs (6), giving drain chance of:

0 boxes: 31% chance Sovereign resists all drain
1 box: 52%
2 boxes: 74%
3 boxes: 89% (can buy this with autohits if GM agrees)

If you allow the Increase Attribute to apply to the drain test, then the 31% chance of no drain becomes 59%.

Now repeat with a second casting of Increase Attribute, but with +4 dice against drain now due to the first Increase Attribute being in effect. No sustain penalty due to Focused Concentration. I'll assume no wound penalty; there's only an 11% chance of 3+ boxes of Stun damage from the first spell by the "harsh" version of the rules.

Spellcasting: the same 89% chance of getting 3+ hits as before.

Drain: 18 dice vs (6): 59% chance of taking no drain at all. 97% chance of taking 3 or fewer boxes. If you follow the "Increase Attribute takes effect before drain" reading, there's a 79% of no drain at all on this second spell.

Now for the Increase Reflexes. Same Sorcery + Magic (5-Essence) test, with each hit granting +1 Reaction and +1 dice. Base Drain Value is higher - 5, +1 for each net hit beyond the first.

Spellcasting is the exact same 14 dice test, but let's break the probabilities down a little more:

Chance of 0 hits: 0.3% (this still gives +1 Reaction / +1d6)
Chance of 1 hit: 2.4% (+2 Reaction / +2d6)
Chance of 2 hits: 7.8% (+3 Reaction / +3d6)
Chance of 3+ hits: 89% (+4 Reaction / +4d6) (max) (can also buy this with autohits if GM agrees)

So there's a good chance that Sovereign can get the max +4 here. Now consider the drain resistance chances, with 22 dice, against a maximum drain of 8 (5 base, +3 for applying 4 hits; this assumes the "free hit" from Essence is included in the drain calculation although that isn't clear to me.)

Chance of 8+ hits: 45% (with no drain, this would give Sovereign 14+5d6 initiative and 1 Major/5 Minor actions)
Chance of 7 hits: 17.8%
Chance of 6 hits: 15.6%
Chance of 5+ hits: guaranteed (can buy this)

With three chain casts -- at most, ten seconds of prep time - Sovereign can all but guarantee casting all three, with reaction time equivalent to Wired Reflexes II (which costs 150k nuyen and 2 essence.) If he's unlucky, he might take a couple of boxes of Stun damage. But if he's just a little bit lucky or prepared to use some Edge or reagents, he can pretty easily get up to the same level as Wired Reflexes IV (400k nuyen, 4 Essence.)

You tastes may vary, but if I'm a Street Samurai at this table who's invested in massive amounts of expensive 'ware to get the same effect, I am feeling short-changed at this point.

You keep saying if GM agrees, but buying hits reads as standard RAW now and not an alternate rule. Other than House Ruling you can't, don't know why you would appeal to the GM for it rather than just stating you do it.

Also, Cybered/Bioed up Sams don't have to worry about active dispelling, wards, being lit up like a Christmas tree on the astral, and having to spend significant Karma at char gen to sustain 3 spells without taking a penalty, which effectively becomes a mage tax if you want to sustain long term without penalty out of chargen (later can buy foci to sustain, but that's additional nuyen and karma cost).

[Michael Chandra]

[...]you need gamemaster approval
to buy hits. It should not happen in a circumstance
where a glitch or critical glitch would have a
significant impact on the test’s outcome.

Possible examples of glitches for Spellcasting are more drain, or critical forgetting the actual spell. True, those are very harsh, but then again weren't people praising the 2e mechanics of losing limbs? So then spellcasting should probably be considered too risky for buying hits.

[penllawen]

but then again weren't people praising the 2e mechanics of losing limbs?

That's at least the second time you've brought this up in threads I am participating in -- is it intended as a carefully-phrased swipe at this post by me as well as this thread where I talked about grounding in 2e? If so, please note that I wasn't 'praising' this behaviour. In fact I said "Ooof, that's cruel by modern standards." Could you please knock off the passive aggression?

You keep saying if GM agrees, but buying hits reads as standard RAW now and not an alternate rule. Other than House Ruling you can't, don't know why you would appeal to the GM for it rather than just stating you do it.

Further to MC's response that GM approval is indeed required to buy hits in 6e: another good reason not to let mages buy hits on tests like this is where the possible drain consequences are important. So a poor roll on the spell might only get a partial effect of what the mage wants, and then a poor roll on the drain might give a couple of boxes. Now the mage faces an interesting choice between sticking with what they have, or dropping the spell, re-casting, and trying again. As a GM, personally, I'd enforce rolling at the table but use buying hits during downtime.

Also, Cybered/Bioed up Sams don't have to worry about active dispelling, wards, being lit up like a Christmas tree on the astral,

Cybered/etc sams do have to worry about MAD scanners (etc) and being astrally scouted and having their 'ware and low Essence noted; and they cannot ever choose to just turn that stuff off at will. A sustained-buff mage build can shut everything down, stroll through a perimeter, then fire it all back up. Any infiltration sammy would sell their mother to a benraku parlour for that ability.

and having to spend significant Karma at char gen to sustain 3 spells without taking a penalty, which effectively becomes a mage tax if you want to sustain long term without penalty out of chargen (later can buy foci to sustain, but that's additional nuyen and karma cost).

Focused Concentration 3 is 36 karma, which good value; consider that that is the equivalent of 72k nuyen, or half the price of mid-tier Wired Reflexes. In any event, the cost is easily neutralised by Impaired Attribute and a dumpstat, as ably demonstrated by Revenant in Lormyr's example.

[Lormyr]

Lormyr appears to allow the +4 Increase Attribute to be included in the drain roll, which feels slightly generous but is (I think) RAW based on the "all spell effects happen even if Drain kills the mage"

Yeah, the effect of spellcasting always resolves before the drain - at least mechanically. Thematically they probably happen within milliseconds of each other. Either way the indirect combat spell example (fireball is cast, fireball roasts people, then Cass soaks drain) on pg. 132 makes it clear.

With three chain casts -- at most, ten seconds of prep time - Sovereign can all but guarantee casting all three, with reaction time equivalent to Wired Reflexes II (which costs 150k nuyen and 2 essence.) If he's unlucky, he might take a couple of boxes of Stun damage. But if he's just a little bit lucky or prepared to use some Edge or reagents, he can pretty easily get up to the same level as Wired Reflexes IV (400k nuyen, 4 Essence.)

Only if he is willing to actually take the -2 sustaining penalty or quickens. More than 2 hits on increase reflexes is too high a drain value for focused concentration to sustain.

As a GM, personally, I'd enforce rolling at the table but use buying hits during downtime.

I personally always allow characters (including NPCs) to buy hits if for no other reason that to save time, but there is nothing wrong with doing it either way.

Focused Concentration 3 is 36 karma, which good value; consider that that is the equivalent of 72k nuyen, or half the price of mid-tier Wired Reflexes. In any event, the cost is easily neutralised by Impaired Attribute and a dumpstat, as ably demonstrated by Revenant in Lormyr's example.

Both the players of the spellcasters said the only reason they bothered with focused concentration was because it was a one shot game. If it was a longer campaign they would have skipped it and just quickened after 2 runs. I personal would do the same thing, but I am willing to accept the loss of ability to hide my magically active status, lose subtlety, and lose the ability to access some locations in exchange for that power. Others will evaluate the situation differently.

[GuardDuty]

but then again weren't people praising the 2e mechanics of losing limbs?

That's at least the second time you've brought this up in threads I am participating in -- is it intended as a carefully-phrased swipe at this post by me as well as this thread where I talked about grounding in 2e? If so, please note that I wasn't 'praising' this behaviour. In fact I said "Ooof, that's cruel by modern standards." Could you please knock off the passive aggression?

I believe he was referencing a little rant by Typhus (?) about trauma patches and overflow damage.

[penllawen]

Yeah, the effect of spellcasting always resolves before the drain - at least mechanically. Thematically they probably happen within milliseconds of each other. Either way the indirect combat spell example (fireball is cast, fireball roasts people, then Cass soaks drain) on pg. 132 makes it clear.

Indeed, I'm very familiar with the canonical fireball example (and I approve of it because it lets mages do sacrifice plays), but somehow hadn't mentally connected that Increase Attribute until I read your example in detail. It just... feels a bit weird, I guess? But I agree it's quite clearly RAW.

Only if he is willing to actually take the -2 sustaining penalty or quickens. More than 2 hits on increase reflexes is too high a drain value for focused concentration to sustain.

Yeah, I realised this after posting. Of course, as you say further down, that limit would only apply until the mage could get their hands on alternate means of free sustaining.

Both the players of the spellcasters said the only reason they bothered with focused concentration was because it was a one shot game. If it was a longer campaign they would have skipped it and just quickened after 2 runs. I personal would do the same thing, but I am willing to accept the loss of ability to hide my magically active status, lose subtlety, and lose the ability to access some locations in exchange for that power. Others will evaluate the situation differently.

Interesting. I think, as a mage player, I'd want both. Reserve Quickening or sustain foci for the big guns like Increased Reflexes but I still see Focused Concentration being useful in the long haul -- eg. for Increase Attribute spells (guards against losing Quickening), or buffs on team-mates, or sustaining illusion/manipulation spells, etc etc.

[Michael Chandra]

but then again weren't people praising the 2e mechanics of losing limbs?

That's at least the second time you've brought this up in threads I am participating in -- is it intended as a carefully-phrased swipe at this post by me as well as this thread where I talked about grounding in 2e? If so, please note that I wasn't 'praising' this behaviour. In fact I said "Ooof, that's cruel by modern standards." Could you please knock off the passive aggression?

I believe he was referencing a little rant by Typhus (?) about trauma patches and overflow damage.

@penllawen: You KNOW I rarely if ever even read your posts, and almost never reply to them. Could you please knock off making false accusations?

[penllawen]

I believe he was referencing a little rant by Typhus (?) about trauma patches and overflow damage.

OK, if so... I still think the passive aggression is a bit rude, though.

[Hobbes]

Only if he is willing to actually take the -2 sustaining penalty or quickens. More than 2 hits on increase reflexes is too high a drain value for focused concentration to sustain.

Yeah, I realised this after posting. Of course, as you say further down, that limit would only apply until the mage could get their hands on alternate means of free sustaining.

I thought it was 3 hits.  AFB so I can't confirm but I thought the wording on Increased Reflexes was something along the lines of "...+1 Drain for each hit after the first."   First hit was 5 Drain, second hit 6, Third hit was the magic 7.  Am I remembering the details wrong? 

[Shinobi Killfist]

[...]you need gamemaster approval
to buy hits. It should not happen in a circumstance
where a glitch or critical glitch would have a
significant impact on the test’s outcome.

Possible examples of glitches for Spellcasting are more drain, or critical forgetting the actual spell. True, those are very harsh, but then again weren't people praising the 2e mechanics of losing limbs? So then spellcasting should probably be considered too risky for buying hits.

I’ll say possibly losing a limb from taking massive damage has a different feel than I only roll 6 dice when shooting and rolled bad once so I lost my hand. So even those who liked 2es limb loss might not like this one as it’s mechanically screwy as it incentivizes people not to do tests in secondary skills and thematically off as guns spontaneously exploding doesn’t make sense.