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[4e] Hitting a bullet with a bullet?

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MajorTwitch

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« on: <11-26-13/0011:58> »
Just wondering if their are any rules or collection of rules that says it is possible. Or is this just up to your GM say your character is cool enough to try such a thing.

If it is allowed what would be the modifiers? You are at least looking at a -6 dice perceive the bullet and -6 to hit it due to size.

Critter

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« Reply #1 on: <11-26-13/0018:11> »
Its a simple Edge(10) roll. No exploding 6s though.
« Last Edit: <11-26-13/0020:49> by Critter »
There's always one PC who just can't go with the flow.  They have to have something that sets them apart.  Something blatantly obvious to everyone who plays with them.

RHat

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« Reply #2 on: <11-26-13/0209:25> »
There are no rules for it, because stuff like this just isn't possible.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #3 on: <11-26-13/0216:47> »
Its a simple Edge(10) roll. No exploding 6s though.
You could just say 'no'.

The closest you get is either catching thrown objects, or Way of the Samurai allowing you to fluff a defence bonus while holding a melee weapon (blade?) as deflecting bullets. From there you could probably come up with your own adept power or some SOTA cyberware / sensor / tacnet combo that allows you to add a firearms skill to your dodge pool vs thrown / fired objects if you also expend ammo as a Full Defence action. Not against anything coming at relativistic speeds, explosions, etc as common sense dictates.
« Last Edit: <11-26-13/0221:15> by Novocrane »

MajorTwitch

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« Reply #4 on: <11-26-13/0243:09> »
There are no rules for it, because stuff like this just isn't possible.
Maybe for an unaugmented human. But it is the future! We currently have point defense systems that can track and destroy missiles and artillery shells. Why that couldn't get downsize and applied to a drone or a person with cyberware does seem like to much a stretch.

Something else... the EFA VARIANTS, which is an aircraft out of mil spec moves at speed 2000. So that 2000/3=~667 meters per second. As reference point 45 apc moves around 200m/s while a 50 bmg moves around 900m/s. However, nothing is stopping you from shooting at the EFA. You can hit an object traveling 3x faster then a bullet but not a bullet...

RHat

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« Reply #5 on: <11-26-13/1955:55> »
There are no rules for it, because stuff like this just isn't possible.
Maybe for an unaugmented human. But it is the future! We currently have point defense systems that can track and destroy missiles and artillery shells. Why that couldn't get downsize and applied to a drone or a person with cyberware does seem like to much a stretch.

Even with top augnmented reaction and reflexes, a bullet simply moves too fast.  This is not considered to be remotely possible in Shadowrun.  And yes, it does seem like too much of a stretch to apply point defense principles to something with the speed and size of a bullet - keep in mind that the size of an object sets the margin of error for how far off you can be and still hit it, and that that margin basically doesn't exist for a bullet.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #6 on: <11-26-13/2348:23> »
Quote
> Right. You forgot all about that shotgun slug you batted out of the air, like you were under the spotlights at Fenway? You samurai types and your false modesty! That was one of the craziest things I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen my share.
> Bull

RHat

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« Reply #7 on: <11-26-13/2355:57> »
Source?  Also, "batted" is different from "shot" - if I remember right, there's an adept power for missile parrying to begin with, though I think it's limited to slower projectiles.
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Reaver

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« Reply #8 on: <11-27-13/0021:57> »
care to REALLY think about that twitch?

Most anti-ballistic systems engage the target at a range of 25km, And are themselves ballistic missiles (see Patriot missile system). For close in Point defense ships rely on the Vulcan mini gun firing 6000 rounds a minute, but even they require over 10km to lock on and track the target.


At typical gun ranges for 100m or less (for urban engagements), and velocity average of 1300f/s (291m/s) you are talking about .3331 seconds to impact... faster then the time needed for your brain to process that you are in danger, and even LESS time then it would take for you to line up a counter trajectory angle (keep in mind, bullets don't fly straight, they arc through the air) and pull the trigger.


IF you absolutely insisted on trying, and Edge(10+) test is very reasonable for such an unreasonable action. Oh, and if you missed? Go straight to the soak roll, no reaction test to get out of the way (you forfeited that with your shot)
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Novocrane

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« Reply #9 on: <11-27-13/0147:46> »
Source?  Also, "batted" is different from "shot" - if I remember right, there's an adept power for missile parrying to begin with, though I think it's limited to slower projectiles.
Like I said before that - Way Of The Samurai.

I wouldn't work from the assumption that you are noticing and taking out a bullet mid-flight. That is unreasonable. Consider that the defender works from muzzle direction, expected recoil, average speed, etc to predict where bullets are going to be.
« Last Edit: <11-27-13/0220:57> by Novocrane »

MajorTwitch

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« Reply #10 on: <11-27-13/0426:34> »
care to REALLY think about that twitch?

Most anti-ballistic systems engage the target at a range of 25km, And are themselves ballistic missiles (see Patriot missile system). For close in Point defense ships rely on the Vulcan mini gun firing 6000 rounds a minute, but even they require over 10km to lock on and track the target.


At typical gun ranges for 100m or less (for urban engagements), and velocity average of 1300f/s (291m/s) you are talking about .3331 seconds to impact... faster then the time needed for your brain to process that you are in danger, and even LESS time then it would take for you to line up a counter trajectory angle (keep in mind, bullets don't fly straight, they arc through the air) and pull the trigger.


IF you absolutely insisted on trying, and Edge(10+) test is very reasonable for such an unreasonable action. Oh, and if you missed? Go straight to the soak roll, no reaction test to get out of the way (you forfeited that with your shot)
Very true. But the year is 2070, and technology does seem to advance at a exponential rate. One great example is the physical size of 1gb computer memory.

Now explain some of the aspects of this character that was I thinking about attempting this with:
It is like a 450bp with an 180 karma go with it.
Now I get this may not be completely legal, but it was within reason of rules and most of it has been okay by my GM. Unless there are some rule(s) that I missed that would says this is blatantly impossible, we have yet to find them.
So the rest of the madness:
*The character is technomancer with a 8 resonance, with the echoes: Biowire, and Acceleration (I may need three ranks of acceleration instead of just one)
*Acceleration: "This advanced echo reinforces the technomancer’s neural structures to accelerate his neural pulse rate, decreasing the amount of time required for an electric signal to traverse the distance..." the electrical pulses that control can the body are moving faster, enabling faster action.
*Next you make rating 16 sprite (I think our GM set a limit on them to 2xRes which I don't think exists by book rules?) have in a comlink that is connected to your biologic PAN, and give the sprite control over the biowire in the body. If the body is controlled with electric pulse how is that much different then a drone? The machine sprite just needs autosofts.
*Sprites: "A sprite’s Matrix attributes are independent of the attributes of any node in which it is running.it runs on other, inexplicable resources." so it should be still rating 16 even in a cheap comlink?
*With modified Radar Sensor (didn't see why you couldn't modify cyberware) boosting the signal to 4, so 1km field of data collection, you have the power of a rating 16 sprite to perceive the bullet with electromagnetic radiation and electricity to move, both of which are faster then the bullet.
*With the right autosoft the sprite that is rigged into your body should have like 32 dice to shoot that bullet.
*I know that sprites have tasks, not so much worried about that.

RHat

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« Reply #11 on: <11-27-13/0542:18> »
...  You know, without getting into the rest of it, precisely HOW do you plan to SURVIVE compiling at Rating 16?  That twice Resonance limit IS in the rules, and at a rating past your Resonance the Fading becomes Physical; your plan will kill your character.
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #12 on: <11-27-13/0619:56> »
"For compiling, decompiling, or registering a sprite, the Fading DV equals twice the hits (not net hits) generated by the sprite on the Opposed Test. This applies whether the attempt is successful or not. If the sprite’s rating is greater than the technomancer’s Resonance, the damage is Physical rather than Stun."
So worst case would be 32 and or 64dv, and that would be death. Compiling 16*2*.33=10.56dv  - average hits to resist 16*.33=5.28 for a net average of 5.28dv p. Registering 16*2*2*.33=21.12  - average hits to resist 16*.33=5.28 for a net average of 15.84dv p. Have 6 body, 11 boxes, so real death is 17+ boxes so on average survivable.

RHat

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« Reply #13 on: <11-27-13/0705:50> »
If I remove the exaggeration for effect, the statement is that it has a very high probability of killing you - far, far higher than you should be comfortable with.  There's a reason why the vast majority of players get very, very nervous about summoning or compiling past about 9 or so.
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Reaver

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« Reply #14 on: <11-27-13/1013:27> »
well, if you GM will let you go for it...

but don't expect it to work in missions play or at an other table....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.