[Mirikon]

Spuwdsda, roll back the attitude. You're sounding like a certain Alaskan ex-Governor and her beverage-celebrating cronies.

As for your 'question', actually think for a goddamn second. Can you, say, walk up to Walmart and purchase a SOTA TV? No. To find the really high end gear, you first have to go and actually find someone who sells it, which takes time. Then you have to find someone that not only sells it, but is also willing to sell to you, which takes more time (especially if you are the wrong race/class, don't have a SIN, or other such things). There are a bunch of other possible concerns, but since Shadowrun isn't an economics simulator, it gets simplified into 'Availability'.

[Xenon]

I'm not so sure a Fairlight Caliban is freely accessable in stores. A cheapass commlink, sure, but a Caliban? Not really.

sure. i didn't say every k-mart should stock every item in the book, just saying you should still be able to buy it ON the record without having to resort to the black market just because it have an available rating above null.

as written you can't buy an empty spare clip, a speed loader, an imaging scope, concealable holster, armor jacket, a helmet, mapsofts, linguasofts, an empty gold credstick, survival kit, datajack  or not even a very cheap commlink (by RAW you actually have to buy all commlinks from the black market :p)

[spuwdsda]

Spuwdsda, roll back the attitude. You're sounding like a certain Alaskan ex-Governor and her beverage-celebrating cronies.

As for your 'question', actually think for a goddamn second. Can you, say, walk up to Walmart and purchase a SOTA TV? No. To find the really high end gear, you first have to go and actually find someone who sells it, which takes time. Then you have to find someone that not only sells it, but is also willing to sell to you, which takes more time (especially if you are the wrong race/class, don't have a SIN, or other such things). There are a bunch of other possible concerns, but since Shadowrun isn't an economics simulator, it gets simplified into 'Availability'.

The question is: What legal items (with an availability rating) would you have as only black market and which in stores?

Your answer doesn't address this question.

P.S. For the record, I see myself more like Mr Paxman in this.

http://youtu.be/Uwlsd8RAoqI

[DeathStrobe]

I'm not so sure a Fairlight Caliban is freely accessable in stores. A cheapass commlink, sure, but a Caliban? Not really.

sure. i didn't say every k-mart should stock every item in the book, just saying you should still be able to buy it ON the record without having to resort to the black market just because it have an available rating above null.

as written you can't buy an empty spare clip, a speed loader, an imaging scope, concealable holster, armor jacket, a helmet, mapsofts, linguasofts, an empty gold credstick, survival kit, datajack  or not even a very cheap commlink (by RAW you actually have to buy all commlinks from the black market :p)

It could be more like shipping time. That they have to special order your commlink or bow, for example. While perfectly legal, the store you visited just doesn't keep them in stock.

[Mirikon]

This is because Shadowrun is not a simulation game, like the Sims. Things get simplified so that you can actually play the game at the table, instead of going through a macroeconomics textbook, or getting your business degree. Anything that isn't Standard Goods, gets simplified into 'Black Market Goods' which has an availability test and a wait time. If it makes you feel better, then say your SINner bought his commlink through legal channels, and had to wait for it to ship from the supplier.

[spuwdsda]

Imo there is a clear gap in the SR5 ruleset here.

Apply the black market rules to retail purchases, is a solution. In fact it is arguably RAI. However, imo this seems over the top in terms of difficulty. I didn't feel I was making a Negotiation + Charisma roll when I purchased my last smartphone.

Imo purchasing retail should be easier than the black market. As a house rule I would consider a -6 to availability rating. This would take many common items to 0 and so could be off the shelf items. Perhaps the roll could be Logic + Computer too, as you can shop about online for price and delivery time.

So there's a fix. Just a little common sense. No business degrees needed.

[farothel]

I'm with Mirikon here.  To give another example (from 4th edition, but that hasn't changed) the Zoé evening gown (availability 10).  Do you have to go through the black market to get one.  Absolutely not.  But say you have found the Zoé store in Seattle and you're inside.  Zoé makes dresses to fit as they should (which is one of the reasons they are so expensive).  So the first time you go there, they take measurements.  Then they tell you to come back in three weeks to check on the dress (it will be ready in one, but to keep it exclusive and to make sure they can deliver even if there's a problem somewhere, they add two more).  Then you come back and you try it on, after which they need two more hours to make those final adjustments.  That's why it has such a high availability, not because you need to go through black market channels.

During those weeks they will also have tried to figure out if you can actually pay for the dress.

Another option is because the manufacturer wants to keep the product exclusive and/or drive up the price.  Commlinks will probably be the best example of this.  Think of a modern day iPhone.  You can get one at a lot of places, but you often have to wait quite some time before one is available, especially at the start of a new product, because of slow production, shipping problems and the will of Apple to do it like this.

Third reason why legal stuff can have an availability is because there simply isn't much of the product, no matter what the manufacturer or service provider does.  As example take a cruise to Antartica.  The cruise season there is only a couple of months long and there are only so many boats allowed.  Therefore there's a waiting list and high prices, which in shadowrun is translated into an availability rating.  In this last case you might get jumped on the list if you know the right people and give them a little something extra, giving it a 'black market' like feeling, even though the product is completely legal.

[bull30548]

Looking at p418, it appears that you only need to test availability if you purchase the item on the black market.

"To purchase an item off the books, make an availability test." P418.

So this implies that if you use a fake/real SIN, the item is legal or you have a licence for it, then there is no test. Is this correct, as it seems at odds with the p416 section on standard goods.

What about delivery?

So I am mildly annoyed with this because the questions are answered in the book.  However, if you have never played SR before you may not understand how all these things work.  First look at page 416 and 418 as he has quoted and read the whole thing not just a sentence or two.  Second I would refer you to page 366-368  which covers Identity SINs and licenses legal and illegal and  what you can do with those.  Now in that section plus page 419 on Legality it points out that you can buy that Fairlight Caliban fake or real and then use it for illegal activities you will probably get in trouble.  Now for the real SINners out there this may not even enter their minds that the Caliban can be used for something illegal.  In fact they probably picked it up to get that extra edge in Miracle Shooter or just for bragging rights.  Also we like to think that runners are the only law breakers in the game but there are other criminals out there such as organized crime types.  They may have a legal SIN and I have no doubt that they have a legally owned, licensed, and registered Ares Viper Sliver Gun for their house but say the guy is a hitman who likes to use SMG's I doubt he bought that legally or if he did he has it assigned to his legal SIN.  As for delivery that is covered under how you bought it legally or illegally your GM makes a simple delivery time table test on page 418. 

Availability is just like everything else in a RP game it is a guideline.  If you are running missions, part of the demo teams, or doing sanctioned games  then they are rules if you are running your own game with your own interpretations then it is just that a guideline.  An example I can use is Bogota 2075 just recently was a warzone and they are recovering from that so I doubt the local commlink shops are worried if they can get a Fairlight Caliban right now or if the local commlink shops are even open.  Where would the availability on other standard goods stand?  Or for example Neo-Tokyo has strict laws on anything over a light pistol (as per 4th edition) how do you get a hold of what would generally be a reasonably affordable and while restriceted SMG? 

Now personally I am a bit of a perfectionist so I would purchase multiple Fake SINs and licenses for all my weapons, equipment, and even lifestyles.  I would have it where my lifestyle was attached to one SIN.  My weapons and gear on another SIN.  I would also own multiples of the same weapons and gear for the purpose of going out or going to a job meeting.  That way I have a lot of bases covered and as a game went on I would acquire more for safehouses, bank accounts, and other necessities.  Playing a runner can be as simple or complicated as you want honestly it just a matter of your perception. 

More than likely things like Availability like most things will be better addressed in other books like it has in the past.

[Mirikon]

Spwudsda, you're also not a SINless shadowrunner. Maybe Joe Wageslave doesn't have to go through as many hoops to get gear. Then again, he's a good corp drone, with his SIN, and doesn't mind (and maybe even wants) the corps to know what he is buying, so they can better tailor their ads to suit his needs. Maybe he got his license for that bow legally, and bought it from a legal supplier. But a shadowrunner is going to have to think twice about doing things openly like that, because A) most of them don't have a SIN, and B) most of them would rather not have the corps (and Knight Errant) knowing that they just got 200 spare clips for their Ares Predator V, because purchase records and the like make for data trails that the corps can use to find you when you do something to hurt them (like most runs). The rules are made with Shadowrunners in mind, not Joe Wageslave.

[spuwdsda]

To Mirikon and Bill30548

Thanks. I was aware of all this however...

Most shadowrunners will have one or more fake SINs.

The Joe Average in my example was in fact Razor McNails, a SINless shadowrunner using a fake SIN. He is well aware that this purchase will be recorded against his Joe Average SIN, he doesn't mind. That's his choice. He is aware of the risks, but in this instance he believes them manageable. He wants the bow quickly and such bows are on the rack at many retailers within the city.

However, currently the RAW do not give him this option.

P366-368 explains very well all about SINs real and fake. It explains the risk of buying things on a fake SIN. The section in p418 is titled 'Black Market Goods'. The associate text and table are clearly about purchasing on the black market. Nowhere is there mechanics on how items with >0 availability are purchased retail. To suggest otherwise is an error. I am sorry if mentioning this annoys you Bill. However, I think you are perhaps being a little over-sensitive.

[Xenon]

yes I understand that some things might have delivery times and something might be very time consuming to get your hands on (even through legal channels).

But by RAW you can't buy anything ON the record if it have an availability code. Even if it is legal and does not require a permit or license of any kind. And even if it have a low availability of 2. By RAW you have to buy it OFF the record using the black market.

Guess it is only me and spuwdsda that find that to be... odd

[farothel]

In my tabletop group, we often ignore those rules (if they are the same in 4th, because we haven't played 5th yet).  If we want to buy, to use my previous example, a Zoé dress, we can do so and the GM will just say something like 'it takes you three weeks'.  Probably a houserule, but you're allowed to make those. 

[spuwdsda]

Exactly. It's a hole and we can houserule it. What's I find perplexing is how some people are maintaining that we have it wrong... That this hole doesn't exist.

Perhaps they are floating down a river admiring the pyramids?

[Unahim]

Sure, maybe having a suit tailor made has a wait time. But do you then still need to make all those availability rolls for it? Why? It is available: someone is making it for you right now! It should just have a wait time then.

I'd like to hear from people here what they tell their player in this situation:

Player: "I go to a hunting shop!"
GM: "Alright."
Player: "I enter and look at the merchandise."
GM: "Ok?"
Player: "I take a nice bow off the shelves and pay for it with my R6 Fake SIN as cover!"

Surely you don't go "Alright, roll to see how many days it'll take you." at that point?

[Michael Chandra]

Actually, you do: The bow won't actually be in stock, but you'll just see a nice ARO of it. Then you smoothtalk them into ordering it for you and depending on how nice you are, they try harder or don't bother and tell you after a few days "sorry, your order fell through".