Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Bull on <05-28-11/0122:00>
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Ok kids. At some point, the Missions FAQ should be updated, especially in light of the new books (and eBooks) getting released.
So what I'd like to see in this thread is for folks to post up anything they feel should be addressed, or questions that they have. Not everything may make it in (Sometimes things are outside of Missions' job to define, and are things that need to be addressed by the main SR line and rules, even if they can be a problem), but there are things that were missed last time around, and things that need updated.
Lets keep discussion out of here. Start up a new thread if you feel the need to debate, argue, or comment on someone else FAQ request. For this thread simply post your FAQ requests as clearly and concisely as possible. Include page references where possible.
Bull
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How much nuyen and karma to expect from a Mission.
(Its been asked here before so might as well throw it in, ya know?)
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I must admit I wasn't playing too much Missions when the FAQ was first started so please excuse if some of these topics were discussed to death already.
1.) Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?
SR4A (p.195) and the official FAQ question stated above have conflicting answers. The Missions FAQ as written doesn't make it clear which ruling prevails.
2.) How do I learn Complex Forms between adventures?
Much like spells and skills, learning complex forms (SR4A p.140) is quite hard when one has to buy hits. Should complex forms have learning rules much like spells and skills (one free learning between missions)?
3.) How does a mundane use infiltration against astral observers?
Is it an opposed infiltration versus assessing test? Or is a mere success test for the astral observer? The Official FAQ covers astral on astral perceiving stealth but not mundane on astral stealth. I wish I had pages to reference, but this is a very not touched upon issue rulewise.
4.) Are the rules from "Incorporating Critters in Your Game" (Running Wild p.32-40) allowed?
I'm not sure if these are optional rules or not. I thoguht they were, but I saw critters used as rewards in Season 3.
5.) Are PDF Only books allowed?
While it's fairly clear that the SR Options line is optional and thus not allowed, what about books like This Old Drone, Digital Grimoire, and MilSpecTech? It seems like these books will become more common as time goes on so making it clear would be nice.
I have some questions related to War!. So here there are:
1.) What "Battlefield Skills" rules from War! (p.136-145) are allowed?
There's a lot of new rules in here and it'll be nice to know which if any are used in Missions.
2.) Can I purchase Military Grade programs (War! p. 144, 162)? And if so, do they degrade?
If they do exist for missions, do they degrade or are they covered by the Unwired SRM4 FAQ?
3.) What skill do you use for Battle Rifles (War! p. 154-155)?
Technically they use the Exotic Weapon (Battle Rifles) skill right now. That seems like an error. It's arguable that they should be used with either Automatics, Longarms, or Heavy Weapons.
4.) Can I use MRSI software (War! p. 162)?
This software is quite unusual. Is it allowed in Missions play?
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I realized I had one more.
1.) I have a rules question that is not covered in the Official FAQ or SRM FAQ. Where can I get an answer?
While I'm not sure you don't want to be "Rules Guy" for SRM, it'll be nice to have some sort of third party to settle rules debate especially when the GM himself is unsure how to rule.
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The official Skill used for Battle Rifles is "Exotic Weapon: Munchkin Guns" :)
As for the rest, yeah... The FAQ was done before most of the expansion books you mention were released.
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I pushed for clarification in an appropriately themed upcoming book (which I wasn't even writing, I just hollered that we should finally clear the air), and I know the official answer for the Battle Rifle/skill question...but I want to make sure it's not an NDA violation for me to say so prior to this certain new product's release.
ETA: Battle Rifles use the Automatics skill.
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Here are some of the questions I have asked in the past. Many of them already have answers, but I feel like they should be stated in the FAQ for ease of reference. I know as a new player to Missions (I started a year ago now), I’ve had to reread through old forum posts to find the answers to some of these.
Missions Specific Questions
1. An explanation of how to resolve conflicting rules. For example, the SR4 FAQ and SR4A conflict on how to use the magic rating of mystic adepts (SR4A 195).
2. Better rules for Technomancers learning Complex Forms (getting past Rating 6 requires a Resonance + Intuition extended test of Rating x2 (i.e. 14)). It is very hard if not impossible to succeed, even if you hire a rating 6 trainer. Perhaps the rules for increasing skills (once per mission without fuss) can be adapted (SR4A 271 and SR4A 240).
3. Shared ownership rules. Can multiple characters work together to buy a tacnet or a vehicle?
4. Can you still play Season 2 and 3 Missions?
5. Can you replay the same mission again on a different character?
6. Can you play a mission you have GM’d?
7. You note that Table Rating changes between Season 2 and 3. Which Table Rating rules should be used? Should the season 3 rules (adding TR to all opposed non-damage resistance rolls?) be used for season 2 (SRM FAQ Season 4 page 5)
8. Can a character create programs (Unwired 118 - 120)?
9. The Missions FAQ states “contacts from outside Seattle area may not be as useful” (SRM FAQ Season 4 page 3). What does this mean? Does this mean characters lose contacts bought with BP (SR4A 88)? How about matrix contacts like the Exchange (RC 130) (SRM02-17)? Is it based on connection rating (SR4A 286)?
10. Let us know if any specific items are not allowed from books (e.g. Stick and Shock (SR4A 324), Emotitoy (Arsenal 57), MRSI software (WAR! 162), Iron Will (Attitude 171))
11. Please make player-initiated trips Metaplanes (Street Magic 130 - 133) and Resonance Realms (Unwired 172 - 175) optional and not allowed.
12. Please add thematic information. Are shadowrunners supposed to be moral or amoral people? I have noticed in the Season 2 missions karmic/reputation rewards seem to fluctuate wildly from “be a good person and stop an NPC from torturing” to “take wet work or don’t play” (SRM02-14)
Rules Questions
1. How do you resolve multiple grenades/ other non-bullet projectiles (do you apply the burst rules?) (SR4A 153-154)?
2. Do non-short narrow bursts add damage before or after armor for checking hardened armor penetration (SR4A 154)?
3. How does a character avoid detection by an astral entity? Can characters without Astral Perception hide from astrally perceiving people with Infiltration vs. Assensing, or are they automatically detected with an Assensing success test (SR4A FAQ)?
4. Do drones count tacnet sensors by sensor rating only? Or can drones count sensor channels individually like characters? If the first, can a drone ever provide more than 4 channels (Unwired 124-127)?
5. How does the Technomancer Echo “Swap” work (Unwired 147)?
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Another one:
How much time can I take between missions?
I suggest making it 4 weeks (1 month) of downtime between missions. Then you could allow the various downtime activities (programming, gear finding, enchanting, etc) without having to worry about hackers spending 5 years in basements or elven mage farmers or anything like that. The only thing that might be affects is some of the less common geneware mods.
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I thought the time was supposed to be handled by the Missions calendar, with each Mission filling one week of that game-time calendar. That is, if you want to take 11 months between your first mission and your second, you can, but you'd have to pay your lifestyle for that time and you wouldn't be able to fit in many more Missions during that season.
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There actually isn't currently a limit to how much time you can spend, outside of what you can afford. You just need extra Calendar sheets to track it. So in theory, someone could spend 4 years between Missions if they wanted to, for whatever reason.
We've been tossing around ideas for ways to limit how much time can be spent in a single Season of Missions, but it's still in the "How would this work, and is this really necessary" stage. The only thing extended time really does for you now that all the item creation stuff (Including programming) has been removed is allow you to take forever and a day to buy a piece of gear. And yeah, sure, i suppose you can get cheesy and live the Coffin Motel Lifestyle while try to arrange to get ahold of a Suitcase Nuke or something, but that piece of gear is so limited in use anyway that it may not be worth messing with it just to prevent such a mile case of "abuse" (And I use the term loosely).
Bull
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Ah, there's something I'd misunderstood. I thought we could only use one calendar-year sheet for a given Season.
Should I have continued the same sheet I'd used for Season 3, instead of starting a new one for Season 4?
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No, Season 4 starts a new "Year", both litrally and figuratively (We assume SRM 04-00 and 04-01 take place in January, and then each Mission roughly takes place a month apart in our internal timeline. So 04-11, the election day adventure, will take place in NOvember. Season 4 also officially bumped the Missions timeline into 2073.
Bull
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The Compulsion power of invoked spirits of man should be disallowed for those without a conjuring skill predating the ban.
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There should be at least 1 free week per mission so people can increase skills (which takes a week if I read the FAQ correctly).
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Honestly, even though it'll hit me hard, I don't like the idea of grandfathering in stuff.
If there's gonna be a rules re-vamp, it might as well be complete. Have everyone, not just new characters, re-build their characters so they're current with the new rules.
My worry is having resentment at tables between haves and have-nots over the grandfathered abilities.
-k
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I'm sort of with K on this.
I love Baron Jolly, but more for the story than the stat block and I'd rather not be "that guy". I might just have to come up with some fluffy story about a possession gone critical glitch and a vengeful spirit sticking around after being dismissed and forcing him to do something awful after going to sleep or something. Give him a good reason to go with possessing objects instead of himself.
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I agree. I'd rather give up Vice's Resonance Bond than have to explain why I can have one but someone new to the campaign can't.
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An issue just came up in local play - the Season 4 FAQ states the Dice Cap optional rule is in play, which is fine, but the FAQ is worded so that the cap applies to ALL dice pools, which includes body+armor damage resistance rolls.
Is this intentional? The Dice Cap as presented in SR4A is for just Skill rolls.
If it is intended to apply to resistance rolls, then vehicles and some characters just lost a bunch of resist dice.
-k
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Bull addressed a near-identical question I had regarding armor+body some time ago; I can't recall where the post was, just somewhere in the Missions sub-forum here.
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This maybe need clarified, but short answer, no.
I shoudl look at the wording on that FAQ question and answer, I guess. Since it's Twice your Attribute + Skill, or 20, whichever is higher... You'd be kinda screwed on non-skill based tests (or tests that do not use your attributes).
Hrmm, come to think of it. That throws a lot of shit into question. Since Hacking doesn't use attribute.
I'll probably clarify it specifically to exclude resistance tests. In most other cases, a pool is taking the place of a skill (or an attribute). So it should still count for those. But resistance tests are an area where you never lose dice (Unless something specifically reduces one of the numbers you're using, like armor penetration, or something taht reduces your body or willpower).
Ugh. I'm too tired for this right now. :)
So to repeat, short answer: No, you don't lose dice, you armor stacking cheese monkey. :)
*note to self. More stun spells.*
Bull
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Hrmm, come to think of it. That throws a lot of shit into question. Since Hacking doesn't use attribute.
One way to do it is to make it program rating + skill x 2. Since program rating is basically used as the attribute for hacking tests, it makes some sense. It favors technomancers, but they'll be kings of the matrix either way.
The other way is to make explict the currently more "RAW" way that makes it base attribute + skill. So hacking's cap is 20 or logic + hacking x 2 whatever is higher.
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The other way is to make explict the currently more "RAW" way that makes it base attribute + skill. So hacking's cap is 20 or logic + hacking x 2 whatever is higher.
This also encourages people to have actual hacking attributes, rather than just being Script Kiddies. Something I think Bull might like.
:)
-k
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The other way is to make explict the currently more "RAW" way that makes it base attribute + skill. So hacking's cap is 20 or logic + hacking x 2 whatever is higher.
This also encourages people to have actual hacking attributes, rather than just being Script Kiddies. Something I think Bull might like.
:)
-k
No, it really doesn't. Making the cap the lower of the two would pummel the script kiddies.
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Well... Keep in mind I have guidelines to follow. Jason cuts me a lot of leeway with Missions, but one thing is that I'm supposed to adhere to the Shadowrun rules as closely as possible. I can cut things out to speed up play or make things like downtime easier, and I've added a few "additional rules" to fill in certain gaps or to help facilitate the quicker downtime. But I can't blatantly change the core rules of the game. For good or ill.
As I said earlier today on Dumpshock addressing a different issue but the same comments about rules... If I start changing the SR4A rules to fix it (as I see needs fixing), pretty soon we won't be playing SR4A. We'll be playing the special Bull Edition of SR5. :)
Bull
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You know, it occurs to me I might as well get something about the Dice Caps clarified for Missions since we're on the subject.
The Dice Cap optional rules read as thus:
"Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher."
The underlined can actually be interpreted as A) Natural Attribute plus Full Skill Rating or as B) Natural Skill plus Natural Skill Rating. The distinction is important because there are some things that directly modify a character's Skill Ratings, rather than add bonus dice.
In a home game, a GM will pick one interpretation and stick with it. For Missions, which interpretation should be used, or is it up to individual GMs?
-k
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A) Can Source Code that preexists Season 4 be copied? I presume you would want it handled like a program (for game balance) but you might want to state so.
B) The need for Source Code to apply program options to a program should be removed. In the rulebook there are three ways to apply a program option:- Get it with the program. This usually raises the availability so on Hacking programs they cannot be applied at chargen.
- Crack the software and apply the program option once you have the Source Code. Since programs cant be cracked in Season 4 this is no longer valid.
- Code your own program so you have the Source Code. Since programs cant be created in Season 4 this is no longer valid.
To fix it I suggest adding a line to the FAQ:
"Source Code is not needed to add or remove a Program Option to a program."
You may also want to mention if Program Options can themselves be copied or not.
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I've been working on a Missions character, but there's a snag because it's unclear how the adept power Heightened Concentration works. It would be great if it could be nailed down for Missions, because it's a real nuisance to have a character whose powers may fluctuate wildly from game to game.
The text is:
"The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and may be be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic."
There are two core questions.
1) How long does it last? The way I think it works is that the adept takes a Complex Action goes "HWA! Penalty X" (example: Called Shot Penalties), and can then run around doing stuff without taking Penalty X (for example, take a bunch of called shots, with penalties no more than Magic rating, and not lose dice for it). The alternate interpretation is that the adept goes "HWA! Penalty X for Action Y" (example: Called Shot Penalty on this shot I am about to fire in my next action phase), and then takes that action with the Heightened Concentration benefit, and then would need to spend a new complex action to negate the same penalty on a different action.
2) Is the penalty for sustaining spells -2 per spell, or a separate -2 penalty for each spell? Ie, can an adept with 4 magic ignore the penalty for 2 spells?
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The other way is to make explict the currently more "RAW" way that makes it base attribute + skill. So hacking's cap is 20 or logic + hacking x 2 whatever is higher.
This also encourages people to have actual hacking attributes, rather than just being Script Kiddies. Something I think Bull might like.
:)
-k
As a missions hacker player, I don't feel the least bit nerfed by this. It's pretty hard to hit that cap. I'm pretty jacked up on 'ware, and still haven't hit the hacking cap at something like 77 karma and lots and lots of nuyen.
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OK, there seems to be some confusion about what that hacking cap does.
It does nothing meaningful to mundane hackers. A hacker who is trying really hard can get Program 6 + Skill 6 + hotsim 2 + specialization 2 + codeslinger 2 + commlink optimization 1 + PuSHeD 1 + Encephalon 2 for 22 dice on their most favorite hyperspecialized action. Limiting them to 20 post facto is annoying if they already paid for all that stuff, but otherwise it just means they don't pick up 2 points of highly specialized bonuses and are A-OK. I guess some very specialized Adept Hackers might get the shaft if you don't also let Improved Ability raise the cap, otherwise they are fine too.
It does make the 100000Y Exploit 10 program not so good, granted. But you were probably going to buy Stealth 10 first and that isn't really affected.
What it does do is make cybered Logic technomancers kings of win and awesome (ie, better than any Technomancer can be with the base CF + skill setting the cap), and other types of technos, particularly non-Logic streamed technos, become very sad.
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Remember the hard cap is NATURAL attribute+Skill so all the logic boosting implants in the world would not raise the hard cap.
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Right. But the trick is that if it's Logic+Skill, you can take a hit to your resonance (and thus max CFs) without losing cap. There's also several ways to boost your natural attribute - Metagenic Enhancement and Genetic Optimization (Logic).
The bigger problem is other technomancer types going and crying in a corner.
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+1 vote for making the hacking cap Natural Program + Natural Skill. The way Logic + Skill hurts non-Logic TMs is crippling. It limits them to 20 dice on any test, while Logic TMs will be the only way to get more. You will also see no pure TMs because they will splash ware for the bonuses (pushed, for example). As it is now, at least Charisma and Intuition TMs are debatably equal and logic TMs are not as good but worth a mention (specifically you compromise your ability to do matrix stuff for very small increases in real world ability).
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+1 vote for making the hacking cap Natural Program + Natural Skill. The way Logic + Skill hurts non-Logic TMs is crippling. It limits them to 20 dice on any test, while Logic TMs will be the only way to get more. You will also see no pure TMs because they will splash ware for the bonuses (pushed, for example). As it is now, at least Charisma and Intuition TMs are debatably equal and logic TMs are not as good but worth a mention (specifically you compromise your ability to do matrix stuff for very small increases in real world ability).
I will point out that squee is talking about how logic technomancers will want genetic optimization (Logic) to increase the cap. Then they'll jam in stuff like PuSHeD and Cerebral Boosters 3 as well since it doesn't cost them anything more.
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Some more suggestions:
1.) Allow PCs to buy Betaware and maybe even deltaware. I'm not sure why you can't buy them now besides legacy. If you want, once he hits Prime Runner Status, my character, Professor Xerxes can run the PC deltaware clinic.
2.) Remove the anti-DocWagon question. There isn't a reason for it to be there but legacy.
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Put the 3rd season diagnostics question back in. It was useful.
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I suggest allowing the Medical Technology section in Augmentation 124-5. The main reason is to allow one to heal a number of boxes equal to skill rating or medkit rating. This will allow a first aid 1 + medkit 6 characters to be slightly better than just medkit 6 dudes. I bet most people do it this way anyways, so it shouldn't cause an issue.
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the only problem I have with limiting the time frame on Missions is that I am limited on where & who I play Shadowrun with, leaving my PCs several at a time with no 'jobs'
on the cap, when it comes down to the final dice roll, its 20 dice, is my ruling
its things like vehicle defense that go over (armor plus body)
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when are we gonna see a list of the banned spells?
I can guess Mind Probe, influnce, control actions, mob mind....what else?
I do hope most of the Detect spells are otherwise left alone
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when are we gonna see a list of the banned spells?
I can guess Mind Probe, influnce, control actions, mob mind....what else?
I do hope most of the Detect spells are otherwise left alone
All mental spells are banned already (I don't know if you knew this or not)
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define mental?
mind probe is easy...but what about invisiblity? mask?
detect life? combat sense?
see?
there are easy ones, and there are gray ones...depending on on how you view the power.
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define mental?
mind probe is easy...but what about invisiblity? mask?
detect life? combat sense?
see?
there are easy ones, and there are gray ones...depending on on how you view the power.
Manipulation spells, SR4A, p. 210-211. Mental spells have it listed in parenthesis next to the spell name.
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There was talk of banning mental manipulation spells and possession traditions, but it hasn't yet made it into the FAQ or official use AFAIK. Bull has cautioned GMs to enforce appropriate "consequences" for PCs who abuse said powers.
As I understand it, there were PCs who were using mind control powers on their contacts and J's. Once such manipulation is uncovered--and it's too hard to keep that under wraps--those runners' days are numbered, and certainly there aren't many contacts who would want to deal with a runner known to mess with his contacts' minds. Using mind control powers against enemies is one thing, using them against your employers is quite another. And God forbid you should use such powers to mess with the minds of the Season 4 contacts, most of whom are well-connected.
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they have already been banned as of 6/27.
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4035.msg54488#msg54488
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Eh. I'm rethinking my stance, actually. though I think an FAQ note about how to handle these is definitely in order.
I'm not fond of "Blanket Banning". I think GMs just need to know that they can and should enforce the game world (And clarify how these spells interact with that world, since many aren't that clear). And that Gms need to realize that they can, and should, deal with problem players who "ruin" games by making them less fun for their fellow players harshly.
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I suspect a lot of people forget that it's hard to be subtle with effective spells. Spellcasting hits are capped at Force (SR4A, 183), but spellcasting (or any magical skill) can be noticed with a Perception (6 - Force) test (SR4A, 179).
It can be a terribly fine balance (or gamble) to determine a Force necessary to score enough hits to affect the target while still being a low enough Force to not be noticed. Trying that when your target has multiple allies present? Even worse. Use a team Perception roll as appropriate (SR4A, 135), and remember the bonuses if the perceiver is Awakened or astrally perceiving (SR4A, 179).
Word gets around, especially with regard to magicians with high Street Cred, Notoriety, and/or Public Awareness...and other runners who work with them.
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the other thing is that nowhere does it say that the victim doesn't no he's been messed with (in the case of the mind control type spells). So once they wear off, they KNOW something happened, that they acted abnormal. And for anyone competant and intelligent in the world of Shadowrun? They're going to be able to guess what happened to them.
Basically, what it needs to come down to is this... Using these spells to distract or control a guard so you can break into Facility X? Good use of the spell. Mind controlling Laurent Naizare to get more money? Very bad use of the spell. Mind controlling your teammates? VERY, VERY bad use of the spell.
I don't particularly care for these spells, because I think it ruins some of the fun of the game, and can be an "EZ Mode". And too often is used that way by players. It's lazing gaming.
But, these spells have their place and their purpose, so I went back on my decision to outright ban them all while we reviewed things.
As i said above, I think that they can stay, I think players (and more importantly, Gamemasters) need educated about them, and some "ground rules" need to be laid out.
Plus, thinking about Season 4... It is such a BAD, BAD, BAD idea to mind control pretty much any of the major contacts for Season 4. Because once they find out (and they WILL find out. GMs should never forget that they have edge, and usually a fair amount of it), the repercussions should be pretty bad. I mean, you have a District Attorney and a Knight Errant Detective who heads up a special ops division of KE, so messing with either brings the law down hard. You have the head of the local Atlantean Foundation chapter and someone with the power fo he Draco Foundation behind him. You have a pair of NPCs who both directly report to Great Dragons (And who are pretty badass in their own right). You have a pair of reporters (Gee, I don't know WHY you just earned 25 points of public awareness. maybe because your picture has been running on KSAF nonstop for the last 24 hours?). And you have an ork with the ORC behind him, plus most of Street Legends on Speed Dial. Hell, even Pip... Frag with him, and you don't ever want to step foot in the Ork underground again. :)
Just saying, Gamemasters have a lot of ways to handle things, if a player is being a problem. I think it comes down to a certain amount of "Player Entitlement" these days. There's been an attitude in the gaming community for the last decade or so where it's suddenly become a no-no for a GM to take a strong hand in his games. That you can't chastise or punish a player for his or her actions in a game, because it "ruins their fun" or some such. Which IMNSHO is a bunch of elephant dung. if players are looking for someone who's just going to recite a story and roll dice, but has no real authority? the players should just go play video games, because theat's what they really want. A Gamemasters job is to tell a story, to entertain, but also to challenge, to arbitrate, and to make sure everyone is having fun, including himself. And sometimes, that means smacking down a player or having bad things happen to the a character that's beyond the characters control.
And I'm off on a ranty tangent. Anyway... Yeah, there you go.
Bull
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So possession and mental powers are unbanned? How about the crafting rules?
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Possession may still end up banned, but until the FAQ is updated, nothing is official.
Crafting rules are/will be though. That's too far outside Missions perameters.
Bull
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One control would be to have a certain level of Public Awareness cause a loss of a character. Then just have written into the mod Public Awareness gains for attacking a Johnson, etc., and then you have a built in limiter. (not Notoriety gains because Notoriety is hardest to come by and spent to reduce Public Awareness. Folks may do it on occasion but they'll be cautious if they do it enough they lose their character.
And before someone cries "House rule! House rule!" yes, its a house rule and something limiting Mental Manipulations is a lot better than a blanket ban.
-Wasabi
(who has no mental manipulation spells)
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One control would be to have a certain level of Public Awareness cause a loss of a character. Then just have written into the mod Public Awareness gains for attacking a Johnson, etc., and then you have a built in limiter. (not Notoriety gains because Notoriety is hardest to come by and spent to reduce Public Awareness. Folks may do it on occasion but they'll be cautious if they do it enough they lose their character.
The problem there is that you already generate Public Awareness from all the Street Cred you're getting. And already I've heard people talk about purposely being dirtbags to generate Notoriety so they can use it to burn off excess Street Cred...this could make it worse. Notoriety might work, but I doubt the offenders will care much. But maybe that just brings the character into the death spiral...
Hit 'em where it hurts...the Karma rewards. The biggest offenders almost certainly are using their problem powers in place of roleplay, and they're almost certainly ruining the mission.
Faction ratings almost certainly should go down across the board, since word of this kind of drek will get out. Sooner or later, all the faction contacts will refuse to deal with them at all.
I think my inclination is to warn the offending character's player (as the action is being declared) that such behavior is...unhealthy in the shadows. If he or she persists, drop the hammer.
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In Denver I had an Aztech mage who really didn't care about reprecussions and I RP'd him as if he didn't care. In D&D terms he was loyal to his team but Chaotic Evil to everyone he didn't need and so to say they aren't RP'ing isn't necessarily the case. To say disruptive behavior should be punished is a-ok though. I just dont think it should include how to RP a character although sure, some folks will use Mob Mind to crowbar and it ALWAYS breaks a mod unless the caster's intent is to not break the mod and do something silly with it. ("Spin in Circles!" given to guards so they get dizzy and fall down for instance.)
As to the Public Awareness from Street Cred at 9 Public Awareness folks wants autographs and corporations offer NASCAR endorsements. Its a stretch to think a person would run the shadows with corporate sponsors but thats what Public Awareness 9 is. Its silly to tolerate it so in my mind not a stretch to say, hey, if you hit PA 10 you lose your character. Bundle it with getting closer to losing that character by getting a rep for attacking the Johnson or being a douche and hey, there ya go.
As for mechanics used in RAW games, yeah the Notoriety needed to burn off PA is a problem at present. We made a joke of it at Dragoncon but you're right that it makes no sense despite being by RAW. I wish 4 Street Cred could be burned to get rid of 1 point of Public Awareness. It makes no sense as written but its what he have and what we use so ...meh.
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Just saying, Gamemasters have a lot of ways to handle things, if a player is being a problem. I think it comes down to a certain amount of "Player Entitlement" these days. There's been an attitude in the gaming community for the last decade or so where it's suddenly become a no-no for a GM to take a strong hand in his games. That you can't chastise or punish a player for his or her actions in a game, because it "ruins their fun" or some such. Which IMNSHO is a bunch of elephant dung. if players are looking for someone who's just going to recite a story and roll dice, but has no real authority? the players should just go play video games, because theat's what they really want. A Gamemasters job is to tell a story, to entertain, but also to challenge, to arbitrate, and to make sure everyone is having fun, including himself. And sometimes, that means smacking down a player or having bad things happen to the a character that's beyond the characters control.
Bull
There's so much truth to this rant that I'm imagining Bull standing at a pulpit with dramatic organ music in the background. Much like James Brown in Blues Brothers. GM's, TAKE THE POWER BACK!!!
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Just saying, Gamemasters have a lot of ways to handle things, if a player is being a problem. I think it comes down to a certain amount of "Player Entitlement" these days. There's been an attitude in the gaming community for the last decade or so where it's suddenly become a no-no for a GM to take a strong hand in his games. That you can't chastise or punish a player for his or her actions in a game, because it "ruins their fun" or some such. Which IMNSHO is a bunch of elephant dung. if players are looking for someone who's just going to recite a story and roll dice, but has no real authority? the players should just go play video games, because theat's what they really want. A Gamemasters job is to tell a story, to entertain, but also to challenge, to arbitrate, and to make sure everyone is having fun, including himself. And sometimes, that means smacking down a player or having bad things happen to the a character that's beyond the characters control.
Bull
There's so much truth to this rant that I'm imagining Bull standing at a pulpit with dramatic organ music in the background. Much like James Brown in Blues Brothers. GM's, TAKE THE POWER BACK!!!
Nice. 8)
I think part of the perceived sense of entitlement comes from the attitude that since they're paying to play (at a con), they should have fun. However, players have not bought the right to have fun at the expense of other players.
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Just saying, Gamemasters have a lot of ways to handle things, if a player is being a problem. I think it comes down to a certain amount of "Player Entitlement" these days. There's been an attitude in the gaming community for the last decade or so where it's suddenly become a no-no for a GM to take a strong hand in his games. That you can't chastise or punish a player for his or her actions in a game, because it "ruins their fun" or some such. Which IMNSHO is a bunch of elephant dung. if players are looking for someone who's just going to recite a story and roll dice, but has no real authority? the players should just go play video games, because theat's what they really want. A Gamemasters job is to tell a story, to entertain, but also to challenge, to arbitrate, and to make sure everyone is having fun, including himself. And sometimes, that means smacking down a player or having bad things happen to the a character that's beyond the characters control.
Bull
There's so much truth to this rant that I'm imagining Bull standing at a pulpit with dramatic organ music in the background. Much like James Brown in Blues Brothers. GM's, TAKE THE POWER BACK!!!
Now I am sad..... I need to start generating a new character.
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Why do I feel the need to have a rigger drive a car through a mall? 8)
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Roleplay is all well and good but there is a limit to what is acceptable, namely at the point where it disrupts game play or otherwise makes things "not fun" for the other players.
The GM should be able to recognize this and try and rein it in, but the players also have a responsibility not to muck things up for their fellow gamers.
In short, roleplay is never an excuse for a player being an ass.
-k
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Are custom magical traditions allowed so long as they do not interfere with the established fluff? The FAQ sort of implied they are disallowed, but didn't outright state it. However, for technomancers, it DID state that streams other than those provided in the books are disallowed. I need to know, because Arc is trying to set up a game using Missions rules running us through SRM Season 2 and then on up.
I'd also like to know if it is kosher to take negative qualities beyond the 35 BP limit without receiving the bonus BP, just to represent the character's flaws by having the quality. The character concept has Bad Luck and Gremlins and is a SINner but also has allergies and also has Spirit Bane (Insects), and I am irritated that I can't cram all the qualities the character would have in there.
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The first one has been asked before, and the answer is no, they aren't allowed.
The second one, I think you are fine and I can't imagine anyone objecting to you having more negative qualities than you got points for.
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Bull seems to be okay with using an existing tradition and re-flavoring the fluff, though.
-k
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Bull seems to be okay with using an existing tradition and re-flavoring the fluff, though.
-k
That'll have to do. Thanks!
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Another question. Are the spell creation rules given in Street Magic allowed? Can I make Fire/Lightning/Acid Balls of DOOM (spraying brains everywhere as i do so)?
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Also asked before - no, but the "generic" element damage spells (ie, the ones listed on the table, like Laser and Boom) are allowed.
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I searched all through the FAQ and this thread...I don't see anyone else asking that. Where has it been asked before, and why isn't it in the main Missions material yet? I would think this is a pretty major aspect of the game for most mage players, myself especially.
*Sigh*. well, thank you.
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Its because Missions doesn't allow optional rules. None of the optional rules being permitted preempts a lot of the 'create your own x' content like traditions, streams, spells, etc.
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The FAQ needs updated some, and it's on my "to do" list. Unfortunately, as always, that's a very, very long list and I have limited time.
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Somewhere on Dumpshock, IIRC? I said it was asked before to explain why I knew (since I'm not Bull), rather than to imply that you should already know.
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Somewhere on Dumpshock, IIRC? I said it was asked before to explain why I knew (since I'm not Bull), rather than to imply that you should already know.
I think a lot of it is common sense - if your turn up to a Missions game with something that a GM may possibly say no to, then it's out.
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I find what a GM says no to varies wildly between games, especially given the way things like the Matrix and Cyber limbs work.
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I find what a GM says no to varies wildly between games, especially given the way things like the Matrix and Cyber limbs work.
To reinforce what squee-naboob said... one warning I give my friends when they mention that some things are GM-discretion is that just because one GM permits it does not obligate a future GM to permit it. Having a potential 'hole' in a character sheet usually makes GM-discretionary options less attractive and reaalllly close to a no.
YMMV of course, but as a guideline you just can't count on them in a CGL Demo Team run game. Now in a home game if the GM always allows it, hey, go crazy! ;-)
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That was kinda my point - if you think that it might be something that you need to explain, then it's best not to include it.
As an example - having a Skill Group is fine in every game - being able to split that Skill Group at CharGen is a bit iffy, so if I were making a Missions Character, I wouldn't do it.
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I'm fine with no "at the GM's discretion" options being allowed, although I do hope the new FAQ contains rulings on how some stuff that's not supposed to be at GM discretion but doesn't have a clear way it works, works (eg, Swap, Heightened Concentration, Critical Strike, etc).
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I find what a GM says no to varies wildly between games, especially given the way things like the Matrix and Cyber limbs work.
To clarify, it's not so much a matter of "what might a GM say no to?" as it is "what's clearly marked as an optional rule?"
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I find what a GM says no to varies wildly between games, especially given the way things like the Matrix and Cyber limbs work.
To clarify, it's not so much a matter of "what might a GM say no to?" as it is "what's clearly marked as an optional rule?"
Yes, that is what the rules are, I was objecting to Phylos' interpretation of that though which is "what might a GM say no to?"
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It isn't explicitly marked as optional content at all until "Step 7: Final Touches." I went and read through it all again, the first mention that it is optional at all is: "Keep in mind that the gamemaster always has final approval over whether or not a new spell will be allowed into her game."
It's a pity. I like making the earth element attack spell and calling it meteor, which has the enhanced knockdown also possessed by water but isn't much different otherwise save in fluff.
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I find what a GM says no to varies wildly between games, especially given the way things like the Matrix and Cyber limbs work.
To clarify, it's not so much a matter of "what might a GM say no to?" as it is "what's clearly marked as an optional rule?"
Yes, that is what the rules are, I was objecting to Phylos' interpretation of that though which is "what might a GM say no to?"
My bad - I meant that as a guideline as well as the no optional rules. Guess I just didn't explain it that well. Some people, I find, use interesting interpretations of core rules that aren't optional rules per se, but wouldn't fly in a Missions game.
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It's a common bit of advice that applies to any game.
Using any rules option that is of questionable interpretation is a bad idea in a situation where you don't know your next GM, or how he views that rule.
If a particular rules interpretation is questionable, eventually a gamemaster WILL question it.
At least, if you DO use one, and later get burned because a GM rules against you, have the good grace not to cry or whine about it.
-k
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While I agree GM has final say even when they do just use houserules in mission games, it'll be nice to have answers to some of the more frequently asked questions by players to GMs. Really a lot of these issues have less to do with players trying to pull a fast one on the GM and more to do with poor writing and rules design.
The ones I see are how mystic adepts work (due to accepting the FAQ), how assensing and mundane stealth interact, can one act normally after being hit by a control X spell but before given orders, how the swap echo works, how heightened concentration works, and how critical strike and unarmed skill using weapons interact.
Also how is the FAQ coming along?
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How is the FAQ coming along? :P
Also I suggest allowing PCs to buy Positive Qualities. It's really nowhere as broken as the book makes it out to be. Most importantly, it'll also existing PCs to get qualities like Martial Arts and Adept Ways if they're allowed.
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Also I suggest allowing PCs to buy Positive Qualities. It's really nowhere as broken as the book makes it out to be. Most importantly, it'll also existing PCs to get qualities like Martial Arts and Adept Ways if they're allowed.
FWIW i'm against it it does have the potential to be quite unbalancing since there is no overall GM control on it.
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Also I suggest allowing PCs to buy Positive Qualities. It's really nowhere as broken as the book makes it out to be. Most importantly, it'll also existing PCs to get qualities like Martial Arts and Adept Ways if they're allowed.
FWIW i'm against it it does have the potential to be quite unbalancing since there is no overall GM control on it.
Vulnerable to cheese and munchkinization? Welcome to Missions, how ya doin'? ;)
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In order for PQs to be bought, in the absence of a GM to adjudicate the usage, Bull would have to write up a detailed set of rules and restrictions on what would be legal and what would not.
That is pretty much outside the purview of Missions. The campaign is not supposed to create new rules unless absolutely necessary.
-k
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How would it even matter? If the rule was just "pay the karma, get the quality, 35 bp max," it still wouldn't be broken.
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How would it even matter? If the rule was just "pay the karma, get the quality, 35 bp max," it still wouldn't be broken.
I think he's under the impression that buying in play lets you break the 35bp limit.
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I'm really enjoying all of the Season 4 Missions. Cudos to all of the writers and contributors to this storyline.
Now that we're closing in on the end of the Season, is there a preview or Easter Egg regarding Season 5 that can wet our appetite for the upcoming story?
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I'm really enjoying all of the Season 4 Missions. Cudos to all of the writers and contributors to this storyline.
Now that we're closing in on the end of the Season, is there a preview or Easter Egg regarding Season 5 that can wet our appetite for the upcoming story?
Chicago
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Yup. Season 5 goes back to Chicago and sees teh city attempt to finally pull itself out of Feral status.
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Yup. Season 5 goes back to Chicago and sees teh city attempt to finally pull itself out of Feral status.
SERIOUSLY??????
Bull....wow....just wow.
Bug City and Universal Brotherhood are two of my favorite setting pieces ever done for Shadowrun (I have the UB boxed set). I never got to play them but just reading them blew my mind. Going to Chicago, just awesome.
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I wish I had been able to play in those days too...
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Yup. Season 5 goes back to Chicago and sees teh city attempt to finally pull itself out of Feral status.
That sounds great. A real mix of politics and Bug City aftermath. Thanks for the hint.
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I wish I had been able to play in those days too...
You stil can CanRay! Just get your new GM to crack open Shadowrun 2050 and run those older classic campaigns!
Fun for the entire Shadowrun family!
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I wish I had been able to play in those days too...
You stil can CanRay! Just get your new GM to crack open Shadowrun 2050 and run those older classic campaigns!
Fun for the entire Shadowrun family!
Black... CanRay helped write Shadowrun 2050. I'm relatively sure (~85%) that he knows about it's existence.
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I know... it was a bit of tongue in cheek. ;) Nothing like promoting a book to its own author...
Its strange actually. CanRay's running joke was that he had never played Shadowrun. Now that he has... well times change and traditions are meant to be broken.
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Yeah, well, tradition's back. My GM isn't able to run any longer, and I barely even started...
Hell, I only have one funny story from it!
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15% though he might have been so drunk he forgot it all.
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15% though he might have been so drunk he forgot it all.
No, I remember it.
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FWIW i'm against it it does have the potential to be quite unbalancing since there is no overall GM control on it.
I did mean that this would let people break the 35bp cap on qualities, however it's fine either way. The main reason to allow it is to allow characters to buy Marital Arts* if they are allowed again. Another advantage would be for newbies who didn't realize that mentor spirits were that good and the like, or buy the Runner's Companion after a few games.
I also don't see the problems with it either. You need to disallow the Technomancer, Adept, Mystic Adept, and Magician qualities from being bought, but the rest of the problematic qualities are already banned. Sure, a magician could spend 60 karma (40% of lifetime karma) to get Type O System, but they also could have bought magic 7 for only a bit more karma and win even harder. I could see everyone spending 30 karma for Adrenaline Surge at some point, but an Edge 1 character could buy up to Edge 3 and that's enough to cover the 1-2 fights Mission adventures typically have or use the Edge out of combat instead. You could spend 48 karma for Aptitude (Skill) and to raise the skill to 7 (remember karma cost to raise a skill to 7 is doubled).
The cheesiest thing I could see if someone spending the 20 karma for SURGE II / Metagenetic Improvement X for a +1 to a high attribute. But really they likely had SURGE already so it's 40 karma for that +1. That means you only break even or break ahead at the 8+ range which highly suggested they SURGEd for that attribute already.
*- Marital Arts does have strong cheese potential. However I think it's worth the tradeoff of making life easier on the pure melee adepts of the world than for min-maxed combat monsters to spend 10-30 karma to win even harder than they were before. At the high level of opitimization, balance is already fragged.
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I haven't been able to find this one in the FAQ, so I thought I'd ask here.
Do skill specializations take time to learn? If so, how long?
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Yup. Season 5 goes back to Chicago and sees teh city attempt to finally pull itself out of Feral status.
SERIOUSLY??????
Bull....wow....just wow.
Bug City and Universal Brotherhood are two of my favorite setting pieces ever done for Shadowrun (I have the UB boxed set). I never got to play them but just reading them blew my mind. Going to Chicago, just awesome.
I'm looking forward to playing around with NooseNet and the Midwest Pirates' Guild.
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So are the publication restrictions in the 2011 FAQ still applicable?
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New faq is on the way soon. Just waiting approval. Once it is out you may need to adjust. Grandfathering was voted down.
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Not much adjustment here. Very recently started playing missions. Just the forums often contradict the FAQ insofar as which books are allowed during character creation.
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Bull has made a few posts with some prelim FAQ items, as well as stating there will be a number of FAQ changes for this season. They are awaiting approval so they can be posted. Hope it goes through soon.
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Right now, it's just the core book. New characters only (Old characters may be transferred as Prime Runners, but wait for FAQ and, well, Prime Missions :)). Avail 12, Rating 6 limits as usual. Mystic Adepts will be getting an overhaul when the SR5 Errata is done, I strongly suggest avoiding them for the time being.
The biggest changes have been to downtime stuff, really. We're sticking closer to the core book for stuff this season (since some of that stuff was designed with an eye on Missions),
Hopefully we'll have it all oput very soon, since I know we have folks started on Season 5 between Origins, some Open Play events run by GMs who were at Origins so got access to some of the draft versions of adventures, and those of you who picked up Sprawl WIlds.
Bull
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Looking forward to that FAQ. Just started one of my groups, (my guinea pigs) on creating characters.
Bull, if it would be possible, could we get an official ruling if initiation/submersion during character creation is allowed for SRM?
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Looking forward to that FAQ. Just started one of my groups, (my guinea pigs) on creating characters.
Bull, if it would be possible, could we get an official ruling if initiation/submersion during character creation is allowed for SRM?
Already answered (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11547.msg218358#msg218358), actually - not allowed.
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Almost forgot. How much do Autosofts cost?
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that will be in the Hotpatch Errata notes once it gets signed off on.
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First, thanks for getting the FAQ out well in advance of GenCon. We'll be getting gear sorted and divided this week,
How drastic are Mystic Adept changes? I made mine partly in the campaign to get changes, but now I'm wondering how much of a remake is required before GenCon.
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What happens if someone with a SIN (the negative quality, at any level) doesn't pay their taxes? For Lifestyle, not making the payment means you spend the next month living Street.
Do you get a tax credit if a run ends up costing money and you don't make any? Are you taxed on the sales of looted goods?
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First, thanks for getting the FAQ out well in advance of GenCon. We'll be getting gear sorted and divided this week,
How drastic are Mystic Adept changes? I made mine partly in the campaign to get changes, but now I'm wondering how much of a remake is required before GenCon.
Nerf Crotch Bat drastic. :) <grin>
Primarily, it'll be an increase in how much karma it costs. So you'll likely end up in karmic debt by a fair amount, depending on how many Power Points you bought. (I posted before that the temporary number is 5 karma instead of 2, and I'm sticking with that as a guess for what the final amount will be. Other changes will likely be on the back end, dealing with how they progress in power after chargen).
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What happens if someone with a SIN (the negative quality, at any level) doesn't pay their taxes? For Lifestyle, not making the payment means you spend the next month living Street.
Do you get a tax credit if a run ends up costing money and you don't make any? Are you taxed on the sales of looted goods?
*blink* taxes??
Yeah... Ummm... Not something we really deal with in Shadowrun, since this isn't IRS the RPG :)
Short answer is, umm... Don't miss your payments on lifestyle, and don't worry about atxes.
Slightly longer answer is, you can't claim shadowrunning as a business expense. :) therefore, no tax credits.
Slightly, slightly longer answer... I can honestly say this is one of the odder questions I've gotten in a long time.
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What happens if someone with a SIN (the negative quality, at any level) doesn't pay their taxes? For Lifestyle, not making the payment means you spend the next month living Street.
Do you get a tax credit if a run ends up costing money and you don't make any? Are you taxed on the sales of looted goods?
*blink* taxes??
Yeah... Ummm... Not something we really deal with in Shadowrun, since this isn't IRS the RPG :)
Short answer is, umm... Don't miss your payments on lifestyle, and don't worry about atxes.
Slightly longer answer is, you can't claim shadowrunning as a business expense. :) therefore, no tax credits.
Slightly, slightly longer answer... I can honestly say this is one of the odder questions I've gotten in a long time.
Not that odd considering a tax was added into the SIN negative qualities. (15% for National and Criminal, 20% for Corporate Limited and 10% for Corporate Born)
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Ahhh. Hrmm, missed that, and I haven't read the final version of SINner then, obviously (I don; think that was in the playtest version. grrr.)
hrmm. Gonna have to figure out how the runner handles that then, since obviously they're not claiming Shadowrunning on their taxes, so the taxes shouldn't be based on that. And the runners need to have a plausible income per month, plus need a forged papertrail.
Yay. Stuff to think about.
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Short answer to this will be that if runners fail to pay their taxes, whatever they end up being. Failure to do so results in serious financial audits, fines, and possibly jail time. All of which are BAD for Shadowrunners, because IRS auditors with cyebrdecks are nasty, and they will figure out you have sources of unclaimed income from illegal activities. :)
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Ahhh. Hrmm, missed that, and I haven't read the final version of SINner then, obviously (I don; think that was in the playtest version. grrr.)
hrmm. Gonna have to figure out how the runner handles that then, since obviously they're not claiming Shadowrunning on their taxes, so the taxes shouldn't be based on that. And the runners need to have a plausible income per month, plus need a forged papertrail.
Yay. Stuff to think about.
Tax (all) their Lifestyles? It is a bit of hand waving at the issue (since most runners go to great lengths to hide their SINs or fall off the grid), but it seems an appropriate measure that is easily calculated. The extra is the requirement to conform to laws and/or the extra required to pay to hide their background.
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It is, but a lifestyle isn't equal to what you earn. Plus, since at the moment lifestyles have a minimal in game effect, all this would do would encourage people to take low lifestyles except for the diehard RPers. So even saying "tax rate based on Lifetyle*2 or Lifetyle*3 doesn't work.
the taxman will get really suspicious if you're paying $2,000 a month for rent, and claiming that's all you make in a month, after all.
It will probably just be a flat "yearly" rate, payable by the end of Month 12 of each the Missions calender. I need to talk with the rest of the writers and stuff though and see what we can figure out.
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It is, but a lifestyle isn't equal to what you earn. Plus, since at the moment lifestyles have a minimal in game effect, all this would do would encourage people to take low lifestyles except for the diehard RPers. So even saying "tax rate based on Lifetyle*2 or Lifetyle*3 doesn't work.
the taxman will get really suspicious if you're paying $2,000 a month for rent, and claiming that's all you make in a month, after all.
It will probably just be a flat "yearly" rate, payable by the end of Month 12 of each the Missions calender. I need to talk with the rest of the writers and stuff though and see what we can figure out.
(As a complete sidebar, people these days tend to spend everything they earn and then some, and they get taxed on everything they purchase. So paying 2,000 nuyen for your life, not just rent, then getting taxed on it, would be analogous to real life. However, I agree that it is not even across all characters, I forget about the min/maxing, heh.)
How about based on Karma then? 1 Karma = 2,000 nuyen. So someone with a National SIN would be required to pay 15% tax of 5 Karma worth of nuyen every month? Works out something like...
National: (15% of 10,000 nuyen) 1,500 nuyen
Criminal: (15% of 20,000 nuyen) 3,000 nuyen
Corporate Limited: (20% of 30,000 nuyen) 6,000 nuyen
Corporate: (10% of 50,000 nuyen) 5,000 nuyen
I realize that the difference between the 15 Karma and 25 Karma seems broken, but if the "you will be killed if found out" penalty for the Corporate SIN is upheld, that might be a deterrent?
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First, thanks for getting the FAQ out well in advance of GenCon. We'll be getting gear sorted and divided this week,
How drastic are Mystic Adept changes? I made mine partly in the campaign to get changes, but now I'm wondering how much of a remake is required before GenCon.
Nerf Crotch Bat drastic. :) <grin>
Primarily, it'll be an increase in how much karma it costs. So you'll likely end up in karmic debt by a fair amount, depending on how many Power Points you bought. (I posted before that the temporary number is 5 karma instead of 2, and I'm sticking with that as a guess for what the final amount will be. Other changes will likely be on the back end, dealing with how they progress in power after chargen).
I actually used 5 karma per power point. I was looking for how much more it changed beyond that. If it's just 5 karma per power point, then I see them as still being the obvious choice for magic users. Making them pay karma for power points (without the free point for raising magic) that should help a bit with bringing them back into balance some.
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Mystic adepts: the problem with mystic adepts isn't the pp cost ((although that's part of it) it's that they have the benefits of both a Mage and an adept with very few drawbacks. You could make pp 10 or 20 a point and they'd stiil be attractive for that reason but that's a discussion for another place.
RE: taxes why not just do it on an income basis 10 percent goes to either the government or making it look like the gov is getting their due. It simple elegant and what's more in line with the rules. Otherwise the sinner disadvantage isn't much of a disadvantage especially in missions. I say all this as someone who took it and has dutifully been paying their tithe.
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In SR4 a 20h/week Day Job gave you 2.500/month. You could define that as the minimum accepted monetary income, meaning you can afford a Low Lifestyle legally after taxes. If the runner takes a higher lifestyle on their real SIN, clearly the taxes will come out higher.
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Honestly, the tax tacked onto the SINner qualities is just overkill. An extra money sink and additional crud to keep track of for little to no gain for the game as a whole.
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Short answer to this will be that if runners fail to pay their taxes, whatever they end up being. Failure to do so results in serious financial audits, fines, and possibly jail time. All of which are BAD for Shadowrunners, because IRS auditors with cyebrdecks are nasty, and they will figure out you have sources of unclaimed income from illegal activities. :)
The IRS has a black ops division and a former head of that division now runs the entire UCAS intelligence community. The taxman is not one to be fucked with in the UCAS.
For runners, the lightest punishment would probably be imprisonment.
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Honestly, the tax tacked onto the SINner qualities is just overkill. An extra money sink and additional crud to keep track of for little to no gain for the game as a whole.
Not Overkill. As it stands, SINner really doesn't actively *do* very much as a negative quality, other than ensure runners are extra paranoid (Which they should be). A money sink means there's a valid reason to allow it as a negative quality, since it's going to come up rarely, if ever, in a Missions game. Since dealing with that SIN usually means seriously derailing a game that's frequently on a VERY tight schedule.
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Honestly, the tax tacked onto the SINner qualities is just overkill. An extra money sink and additional crud to keep track of for little to no gain for the game as a whole.
Not Overkill. As it stands, SINner really doesn't actively *do* very much as a negative quality, other than ensure runners are extra paranoid (Which they should be). A money sink means there's a valid reason to allow it as a negative quality, since it's going to come up rarely, if ever, in a Missions game. Since dealing with that SIN usually means seriously derailing a game that's frequently on a VERY tight schedule.
I'm just of the mind, I guess, that some disadvantages/flaws/negative-qualities are more passive by their very nature and that taking proper precautions should be able to mitigate ill-effects in most circumstances. Then again, I also think that making use of those taken should be done, but done rather sparingly rather than poked and prodded all the time.
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For Missions, it needs to have an ongoing, regular game effect. Except for home games, GMs for Missions don't have time to tailor things to do stuff with players flaws. And if a flaw never gets yused, never comes up, it's free points. Right now, SINner is basically like that.
Bull
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Then perhaps maybe altering that portion to where it's Missions specific? Seems like a good compromise to me.
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So two options come to mind:
- Fixed Tax Amounts, where at higher levels they are smart enough to realize you're hiding some cash and tax you at higher amounts. Could be 500, 1000, 1500, 2500 or 500, 1000, 1000, 50 and the second option combined.
- For Corporate SINners, penalties at interacting with contacts of other corps, at the highest level higher penalties and lesser penalties to non-corp contacts. Like a -1 and -2 to interact, I dunno (which would include Swag tests).
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Ok, we've been talking about it behind teh scenes, and the percentage is supposed to apply to all income, Shadow or otherwise. the reason being is that in Shadowrun, money is almost entirely digital. Which means it all gets tracked. Even those certified credsticks get tracked. So even when you're dealing on the black market, things have a way of being traceable. When you're SINless, you can get away with this, because you don't leave a record behind. the only advantage there really is to not being a part of the system. But when you're a SINner, you're part of it, even if you keep your shadow life separate from your SINning ways. And the IRS (or the corporate equiv) watch money VERY closely. And if they see you with money or expensive things that you shouldn't afford, they're going to start digging, and then you're in trouble.
Keep in mind it was the IRS took down Capone and a number of other crime bosses, while the cops and the FBI couldn't.
So the long and short of it is, SINner means you MUST pay taxes on all the money you earn off each Shadowrun. Payable at the end of each month. This will get added to the FAQ in the next revision. If you took SINner, you can drop it and take a different negative quality, or just go into Karmic Debt and pay it off.
And yes, this makes the quality not very worthwhile to take. It's going to add a fair bit of record keeping to things. But that was the intention of the flaw, so we'll stick with it.
And yes, you can argue that runners would find ways to keep things hidden and secret and only pay taxes on part of their income, and that they use Fake SINs for a lot of stuff, and etc, etc etc. But keep in mind that if you have to burn or drop a Fake SIN, you also don't currently lose the money attached to it either, because that would be nasty. So if we start diving into one end, we have to start wading through the entire pool. and deal with the upsides and downsides of shadow accounting.
We might see some advanced rules dealing with all of that in the future. But if we do, it's down the line quite a ways, and will likely be optional rules and will likely be a lot of added complexity. So for now, we'll stick with things as is.
Bull
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So... No taxes on material rewards and item trading? That opens the way to special negotiations with Johnsons and other players. :) Not in Missions, sure, but in normal campaigns.
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in non-Missions games, GMs are open to interpretations and house ruling. We don't quite have that luxury :)
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Ok, we've been talking about it behind teh scenes, and the percentage is supposed to apply to all income, Shadow or otherwise. the reason being is that in Shadowrun, money is almost entirely digital. Which means it all gets tracked. Even those certified credsticks get tracked. So even when you're dealing on the black market, things have a way of being traceable. When you're SINless, you can get away with this, because you don't leave a record behind. the only advantage there really is to not being a part of the system. But when you're a SINner, you're part of it, even if you keep your shadow life separate from your SINning ways. And the IRS (or the corporate equiv) watch money VERY closely. And if they see you with money or expensive things that you shouldn't afford, they're going to start digging, and then you're in trouble.
Keep in mind it was the IRS took down Capone and a number of other crime bosses, while the cops and the FBI couldn't.
So the long and short of it is, SINner means you MUST pay taxes on all the money you earn off each Shadowrun. Payable at the end of each month. This will get added to the FAQ in the next revision. If you took SINner, you can drop it and take a different negative quality, or just go into Karmic Debt and pay it off.
And yes, this makes the quality not very worthwhile to take. It's going to add a fair bit of record keeping to things. But that was the intention of the flaw, so we'll stick with it.
And yes, you can argue that runners would find ways to keep things hidden and secret and only pay taxes on part of their income, and that they use Fake SINs for a lot of stuff, and etc, etc etc. But keep in mind that if you have to burn or drop a Fake SIN, you also don't currently lose the money attached to it either, because that would be nasty. So if we start diving into one end, we have to start wading through the entire pool. and deal with the upsides and downsides of shadow accounting.
We might see some advanced rules dealing with all of that in the future. But if we do, it's down the line quite a ways, and will likely be optional rules and will likely be a lot of added complexity. So for now, we'll stick with things as is.
Bull
Are you sure that's appropriate for the general FAQ? For missions sure but that's kind of a ridiculous ruling for a non missions game.
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This thread IS talking about the Missions FAQ, not the general SR5 one.
-k
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This thread IS talking about the Missions FAQ, not the general SR5 one.
-k
Just making sure, Bull has made some announcements about the general FAQ, and he's generally said the missions FAQ when he meant that.
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in this case, this is coming from the writers who worked on SR5. This was the intention, and this was the argument made. I can see the point, though it's harsh. but then, I'm strangely ok with that, since this is a Flaw, and one that has traditionally been somewhat abused. Flaws are bad, Flaws should be things that punish your character, and should only be taken when appropriate for your character, not just to squeeze out a couple extra points.
The White Wolf guys used o have a term they used, Flerits, whcih was an amalgamation of Flaws and Merits. It referred to any Flaw that either had no real in game drawback, or could be used "offensively". Shadowrun has had a few of those over the years, things like Combat Monster and the like.
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in this case, this is coming from the writers who worked on SR5. This was the intention, and this was the argument made. I can see the point, though it's harsh. but then, I'm strangely ok with that, since this is a Flaw, and one that has traditionally been somewhat abused. Flaws are bad, Flaws should be things that punish your character, and should only be taken when appropriate for your character, not just to squeeze out a couple extra points.
The White Wolf guys used o have a term they used, Flerits, whcih was an amalgamation of Flaws and Merits. It referred to any Flaw that either had no real in game drawback, or could be used "offensively". Shadowrun has had a few of those over the years, things like Combat Monster and the like.
I REALLY hope you'll reconsider. Having a SIN has all sorts of drawbacks in a real game with a GM. Mandating a missions style bookkeeping convenience for ordinary games is really... unwise.
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The easy solution is sharing a Lifestyle with one of your SINless teammates, and letting them 'handle' the majority of your cut, putting the nuyen in their name and letting them handle the purchases while you receive enough official income to convince your IRS that you're not hiding things from them. And of course, if your SIN is from another country (my planned Missions character, for example, travelled to Chicago from the Athabaskan Council on the trail of his father's killers, and for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture, has remained), how are they going to tell the difference? Send someone over to another country for an audit?
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You'll just want to convince your real GM to do it differently. For example, let the IRS assume you're simply earning enough for your lifestyle, so a 20h/week job for Low and a 50h/week job for Middle, and tax you at 2500 / 6000 income before taxes. Let them get really suspicious if you're claiming to be a Squatter and only got that little income.
Remember, these are the rules for Missions. Here, there is no leeway, because a GM doesn't have the time. Yes, you're supposed to pay taxes as SINner. But you can talk things over with your GM in normal campaigns.
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As a Corporate Born SINner , I've actually been deducting 10% of my income at the end of each mission. Although I thought the fluff really didn't make sense at all, the mechanic was important to follow. I write it off sort of like some of my money goes to actual taxes (to keep the IRS off my back) and part of my money goes to money laundering and other methods to make sure the remaining money is "clean". Total cost is 10%, which is what is important.
I will say that my SIN has made me more money than it has lost me though, since I used it to collect a couple bounties in my first 3 missions. (We'll see if the trend holds in Mission 4 of sprawl wilds.)
Note: I'd have taken the flaw even if it was 5 points since it was a key component in the backstory of the character. Since it jumped up to 25 points in SR5, I actually had to drop several other flaws (one of which wasn't mission legal anyway, although since it's an RP effect, I'll still play it out.)
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Nice. Just make sure not to say "fifteen? ???" when SINner runners complain about their 15% tax rate.
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For Bull,
I'm making this assumption, but assuming can get me in trouble...
Assuming that karma gained via "Working for the People" does not count towards street cred, and karma spent for "Working for the man" still counts towards street cred.
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Posted this before but it might have gotten lost in the crowd: What about Intuition-Traditions? Can people switch to them when they are introduced? Or maybe use an SR4-tradition with spirits they cannot use yet?
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Regarding Sinner-based tax rates I suggest the GM deduct the money.
All it would take is for the missions chronicle to have a spot above 'Purchases' to mark money lost to taxes.
As for it making sense all players MUST know is that its an artificial yet acceptable mechanic and if they don't want to lose the money they can either not-buy affected Sinner qualities or sell them back at the normal 2*book-cost karma cost like any other negative quality.
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Is the nuyen you get from Working for the Man gross income (so SINners pay taxes over it) or net income?
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In order to error to my disadvantage (to make sure I'm not cheating):
1) I pay taxes on the 10k before I spend it working for the people. (So I'm spending after tax money.)
2) I'm not taking +1 street cred for the +5 karma for working for the man.
It's still a big enough boost that I did that after each of my first 4 missions.
Going the other way, I'd argue you should get the +1 street cred (since you earned the 5 karma through a mission), but you also should pay the taxes on the 10k.
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Is the nuyen you get from Working for the Man gross income (so SINners pay taxes over it) or net income?
Gross.
Going the other way, I'd argue you should get the +1 street cred (since you earned the 5 karma through a mission), but you also should pay the taxes on the 10k.
That sounds about right.
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Jesus. how many SINners do we HAVE in Season 5? You're supposed to be the SINless, faceless masses, people! :)
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But my character is Athabaskan Council Mounted Police - he first came to Chicago on the trail of his father's killers, and for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture, decided to remain, on unpaid suspension - and I'm pretty sure you don't get to be a mountie unless you have a real SIN. So it can't be helped. :-\
Also, I find SINners fun to roleplay. :)
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But my character is Athabaskan Council Mounted Police - he first came to Chicago on the trail of his father's killers, and for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture, decided to remain, on unpaid suspension - and I'm pretty sure you don't get to be a mountie unless you have a real SIN. So it can't be helped. :-\
Also, I find SINners fun to roleplay. :)
Do you have a wolf?
-k
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Most, if not all, individuals that pay you have Connection, for example in Ashes a lot of the cast of Shadows had their connection rating listed. When negotiating payment, can you negotiate getting part of it in items that person can get you, so that you only pay taxes over the nuyen part of the payment?
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The IRS considers barter taxable.
Also, Bull, you ask why so many are SINers? Ok, I have to pay taxes, but it was an easy way to get to the max disadvantages without additional math.
Thirdly, does the karma that we get at character creation count towards retirement as a Prime?
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Most, if not all, individuals that pay you have Connection, for example in Ashes a lot of the cast of Shadows had their connection rating listed. When negotiating payment, can you negotiate getting part of it in items that person can get you, so that you only pay taxes over the nuyen part of the payment?
Unfortunately, in Sprawl Wilds, Ashes is the only mission with connection ratings included, which also creates difficulties when using contacts gained from those modules. (We have 1 filled in for Bull's connection rating, even though it's very likely higher than that.)
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Thirdly, does the karma that we get at character creation count towards retirement as a Prime?
No. that's part of your starting character, so doesn't count toward your overall total, even if you carry some over from Chargen.
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Unfortunately, in Sprawl Wilds, Ashes is the only mission with connection ratings included, which also creates difficulties when using contacts gained from those modules. (We have 1 filled in for Bull's connection rating, even though it's very likely higher than that.)
Yeah, generally the older CMPs don't give out new contacts. Mostly to prevent contact clutter, since often the NPCs only show up once (generally). It got really frustrating in earlier seasons for me personally when we'd get tehse cool contacts, but then never see them again. And by the end of the season you have like 50 of these little contact sheets, most at loyalty 1 still. That's one reason we tried to establish a core "Cast" for each season starting in 4. But since we know we'll be handing you a dozen or so contacts fairly early on, and we design them to cover a spread of types and specialties, more contacts weren't really needed from the CMPs.
With the newer CMPs that serve as little mini-story arcs set in various locations, we add in a couple Contacts to those to serve as a bridge between the adventures. :)
Anyway, Tosh and Bull's information can be found in many of the Season 4 SRM's. You can also get background and connection ratings here: http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/missions/seattle-season-4-contacts/
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But my character is Athabaskan Council Mounted Police - he first came to Chicago on the trail of his father's killers, and for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture, decided to remain, on unpaid suspension - and I'm pretty sure you don't get to be a mountie unless you have a real SIN. So it can't be helped. :-\
Also, I find SINners fun to roleplay. :)
Do you have a wolf?
That's my great-grandfather, although I might pay 10 Karma for Mentor Spirit (Wolf) after my first Initiation.
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There was a "SRM Season Four Contacts.pdf" file at one point but that seems to have disappeared when the website got updated.
-k
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Bull put those back it seems, check his post two above yours.
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Yes. That link was very useful to get the stats for a couple of relevant contacts. We assumed connections 1 any time nothing else was specified. Bull is probably the one that is most relevant to carry over into Season 5 from Sprawl Wilds since he has knowledge of Chicago and Bugs, and he's a decker. I doubt I'll be able to use many of the other local Seattle contacts even if we are in a position to contact them with the crappy Chicago Matrix.
Of course, it sounds like the season 5 CMP's don't actually take place in Chicago anyway, so maybe I'll get sent back to Seattle.
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Yeah, but on the other hand season 5 involves fresh characters so can't carry over unless you're playing a freeplay home game.
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Outside of the stuff in the recent CMP compilations (Which are older CMPs that actually predate Season 4. They were originally a "preview" for what was coming, or sorts.) only one of the 2013 CMPs takes place in Seattle, and that's the culmination of three other adventures that take you to Denver, Germany, and neo-Tokyo.
Bull would have some use as an informational contact, but keep in mind he won;t step foot inside Chicago or anywhere near it. :)
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Also, Simon Andrews apparently up and moved from Seattle to Chicago. Following the opportunities, or the runners?
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Also, Simon Andrews apparently up and moved from Seattle to Chicago. Following the opportunities, or the runners?
Why not both?
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Also, Simon Andrews apparently up and moved from Seattle to Chicago. Following the opportunities, or the runners?
It would be pretty hilarious to run into Simon while he's hiding behind a bush, wistfully staring at a runner from the previous season who moved to Chicago and is having dinner in a restaurant across the street. Bonus creepiness points if there's no bushes in that street and he brought it himself.
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Thirdly, does the karma that we get at character creation count towards retirement as a Prime?
No. that's part of your starting character, so doesn't count toward your overall total, even if you carry some over from Chargen.
This might be overly optimistic on my part, but is retirement still 150+ karma at the end (or beginning) of a season?
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Outside of the stuff in the recent CMP compilations (Which are older CMPs that actually predate Season 4. They were originally a "preview" for what was coming, or sorts.) only one of the 2013 CMPs takes place in Seattle, and that's the culmination of three other adventures that take you to Denver, Germany, and neo-Tokyo.
I know I'm not running that set unless I can get a pickup session though. Out of the 30 or so I signed up for when "rope drop" happened, I think I only have CMP5. After that it will be up to free tickets and my con skills to get more sessions.
Bull would have some use as an informational contact, but keep in mind he won;t step foot inside Chicago or anywhere near it. :)
Information is exactly what I figured he'd be good for. He's experienced with Chicago and Bugs. That will be my only contact I can say that about. I figure none of my contacts are good for actually doing anything for me in Chicago, but since Bull is a decker, distance isn't as big an issue for getting hold of him for legwork.
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This might be overly optimistic on my part, but is retirement still 150+ karma at the end (or beginning) of a season?
Bull had said in a previous post that 150 may no longer be the retirement number.
I'm assuming that "running for the man" wouldn't count towards whatever number is set.
Even with those caveats, I'm assuming I'll be retiring the character at the end of season 5 anyway, when things move to a new venue instead of Chicago. I kind of like the idea of a fresh start for everyone when each season comes around.
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Regarding disallowed negative Qualities: one player in our Ashes game (at my suggestion, I admit) got Codeblock (Check Overwatch Score), instead opting to use the Baby Monitor program. Our GM gave us a frowny face, though, so I might as well ask: does the Baby Monitor (which requires either allocating a program slot, or using 2 Free Actions to switch it in, then out again after checking your OS) disqualify Check Overwatch Score from being applicable for Codeblock?
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Not an official answer but it would seem to run afoul of Characters cannot apply Codeblock toward
hacking actions they are never likely to take.
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Since you have to invest effort into not having to tale the action, I was wondering if it fell into a grey area, though.
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Again not official, but I'd say no.
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Bull had said in a previous post that 150 may no longer be the retirement number.
It will probably stay around there. But we'll revisit it at the end of Season 5. It's not really something to worry about until then.
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Sprawl Wilds averages at about 4 karma, if Shooting Line does the same and we get 18 Season 5 Missions at average 7 karma each then retiring would require near-optimal completition of the entire thing and that's assuming you do them all. So perhaps retiring won't even be an option yet. Can't wait to see, by the way.
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Sprawl Wilds averages at about 4 karma, if Shooting Line does the same and we get 18 Season 5 Missions at average 7 karma each then retiring would require near-optimal completition of the entire thing and that's assuming you do them all. So perhaps retiring won't even be an option yet. Can't wait to see, by the way.
Actually, sprawl wilds should cap at 6, 6, 8, 6 karma for a total of 26. Although "by the module" they only give 3, 3, 5, 3 because they karma section was written for 4E, Bull has stated that the 5E karma rules should be used utilizing the caps from the module (which is where the 6, 6, 8, 6 comes from.) I'm hoping shooting line addresses this to make karma clearer when playing under 5E, but once Bull gave us a ruling, we were good to go on karma with Sprawl Wilds too.
I'm also assuming that any karma gained by "working for the people", which is basically an extra 5 per mission as long as you have the Nuyen for it, would not count, although that makes things very tricky on tracking karma. I'm trying to keep very detailed records of this so that when a ruling does come out, I will know how to apply everything. If working for the people and working for the man are meant to be karma modifiers that affect retirement, it gives too much ability to manipulate, since you could just work for the man and basically go on forever.
Assuming 6 karma per module: We'll have (4 + 4 + 18) *6 = 156 karma without working for the people being taken into account. Since some modules will cap higher, I think 150 is very doable within 26 missions. If you are doing CMP's, then the number of missions goes even higher, making 150 karma more of a certainty.
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Really? I never read that ruling, got a link for me?
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Just did a quick run through of Sprawl Wilds, and it's 6, 6, 8, and 6 max Karma. I think I see the problem though.
The adventures themselves were originally written for SR4 (and most were done during season 3 even), and as such have the "Characters earn 1-3 karma for Missions goals, and 1-3 for good roleplaying" stuff. If taken at face value, this means that yes, under SR5 they would technically cap out at 3 rather than 6. However, you need to factor in the difficulty of the Mission and a couple other factors, which should raise the value back up to 6. It's worded a little ambiguously, I admit, but man, I like to keep a tight reign on my players karma and nuyen, but even I'm not that tight-fisted! :)
Have your GM refer to the SR5 Karma Awards.
Bull
From here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11575.msg214306#msg214306
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Thanks. :) I read the original post a few posts higher there, but this one didn't stick.
That sounds like a good addition to the FAQ by the way, and I'll inform my players they should write down 3 more karma.
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Thanks. :) I read the original post a few posts higher there, but this one didn't stick.
That sounds like a good addition to the FAQ by the way, and I'll inform my players they should write down 3 more karma.
No prob. I remembered because the Karma adjustment is one of the changes I really like.
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The mage and adept are now very happy since they now have enough karma to Initiate, having kept 7 after chargen. ^_^
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Q: In SR4, Spirits used Edge to resist Oversummoning. Will this rule apply to Missions, giving that future consequences of extended spirit abuse aren't really an option?
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No prob. I remembered because the Karma adjustment is one of the changes I really like.
That was huge for me since it was 12 extra karma. It means after working for the people 4 times (1 per Mission), I ended up using 46 karma in Seattle before leaving for my "scouting expedition to Chicago" at GenCon.
(NOTE: I call it my scouting expedition since only 2 of our group of 5 will be doing missions at GenCon...which I presume will be in Chicago, and then we'll run Firing Line...which I presume is back in Seattle. Then the whole group will move to Chicago once the official Season 5 release starts. I'm anticipating big gaps though, since that will only get us through September, and even if a mission or two comes out by then, I doubt it will keep up for once a week sessions. We are having some talk about me moving to GM after GenCon semi-retiring my Mystic Adept too...still not sure how we'll do that though.)
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Bull said on Firing Line that "Seattle, New York, DC, and Bogota are all on the menu, I believe."
If you go GM after GenCon, don't forget Season 5 (and Sprawl Wilds + Firing Line) lets you gather experience with your character even if you GM. :)
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Bull said on Firing Line that "Seattle, New York, DC, and Bogota are all on the menu, I believe."
If you go GM after GenCon, don't forget Season 5 (and Sprawl Wilds + Firing Line) lets you gather experience with your character even if you GM. :)
I saw that mentioned, but I never did find where that was in the FAQ.
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In the v0.99 FAQ, page 4. Season 5 will have a GM Rewards section for karma, nuyen and other loot, whereas contacts/loyalty/notoriety/publicawareness/streetcred you get what the players got.
For the Convention Missions compilations that were made SR5-compatible and don't have karma and nuyen listed for the GM: You get the maximum karma and nuyen pays as if you get 2 net hits on any negotiation test for payment.
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And Season 5 runs do most definitely have GM rewards listed in the back where you wrap everything up.
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Q: Seeing as how normally this is a GM call: May a player, while still only receiving 25 karma for it, take more than 25 karma in Negative Qualities, e.g. when the quality-combination you want ends up at 26?
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[spoiler]I am aware the rules state you can't take more than 25 in negative qualities and disregard the excess above 25, aka get 25 karma for -25+ in qualities. Aaron has stated it requires GM approval, as such I am asking here, since there's only 1 real Missions GM, the rest of us are proxies. ^_^
To go into further detail: What gave birth to my question in the FAQ topic, and as a result here, is a topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?action=post;quote=229989;topic=3768.180) from a player who has Corporate Limited SIN (15), Ork Poser (6) and Prejudiced Biased, Humans (5), for a total of 26.[/spoiler]
Edit: I have cleared out my other posts just like ZeConster and DWC have.
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While, obviously, in the context of missions only Bull's opinion will matter, I can't imagine the answer to this at most tables being anything but "it's outside the letter of the rules but I'll allow it."
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While, obviously, in the context of missions only Bull's opinion will matter, I can't imagine the answer to this at most tables being anything but "it's outside the letter of the rules but I'll allow it."
In the context of official Missions, I can't image the official answer to this at a table being anything but "it's not in the errata and it's not in the rules, so I won't allow it."
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So i had a chance to read the current faq, two points struck me as odd.
You may not take more than four weeks off between shadowruns After all, you need to keep your name out there. Runners that stay hidden too long run the risk of being forgotten, and your fixer will stop calling if you ignore him too often.
I guess my immediate thought is, why? What's the point in running a living campaign that we don't really audit peoples paperwork anyway and then being so hostile to character advancement. "Congratulations, you saved up X runs worth of karma to raise one of your stats above a 4 or your skills above a 5. Now you've got the money and wherewithal to support yourself while you pump iron, hit the range, or do eye spy, but your fixer will stop calling you if you pass over a magical threshold of 4 weeks without blowing something up. Enjoy waiting another run for your advancement."
It just seems counter to any kind of good sense.
f you go looking for a piece of gear, use the standard Availability Test rules (p. 418,
SR5) and mark off the appropriate amount of time on your Missions Calendar. Note that you can only search for one item at a time, as this represents you physically
going out and looking for the item, spending time making phone calls, talking with people, buying them drinks, etc
This actually runs quite counter to the rules on p.418. Shadowrun has moved into the telephone ordering economy, someone no longer has to spend weeks pounding pavement to find gear, and thank sweet D's ghost for that. The timeframe is now the time to deliver not the time to find.
f you go looking for a piece of gear, use the standard Availability Test rules (p. 418,
SR5) and mark off the appropriate amount of time on your Missions Calendar. Note that you can only search for one item at a time, as this represents you physically
going out and looking for the item, spending time making phone calls, talking with people, buying them drinks, etc
This actually runs quite counter to the rules on p.418. Shadowrun has moved into the telephone ordering economy, someone no longer has to spend weeks pounding pavement to find gear, and thank sweet D's ghost for that. The timeframe is now the time to deliver not the time to find.
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Q: Seeing as how normally this is a GM call: May a player, while still only receiving 25 karma for it, take more than 25 karma in Negative Qualities, e.g. when the quality-combination you want ends up at 26?
Rather than a hypothetical question this one has just become an actual one for me: One of the players used a sample character during Ashes and is now designing their own character. However, their negative qualities are now at 26 total.
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You can only get 25 Karma for Negative Qualities. however, feel free to take as many negative qualities as you like. You don;t get the karma, but if they're appropriate for the character, go for it.
Me, I still remember the days when there were no qualities, positive or negatives. We took stuff like this anyway. It was called "roleplaying" :)
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And you had to walk uphill while fighting Bug Spirits both to and from school, while having to carry 50kg in equipment including Panthers, and this while it was snowing. ;D
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And the bad guys had Vindicators. Can't forget that.
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I love when the bad guys have Vindicators. That turn spent spinning up the barrels is the perfect opportunity to kill them.
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Our bad guys came with pre-spun Vindicators.
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Our bad guys came with pre-spun Vindicators.
And a mage ally sustaining a Silence spell on it.
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That reminds me: How's the Mayor Campaign going?
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Bull is NOT running for mayor. He has enough going on these days, thank you. :)
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Ah, so he's going for governor?
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I tried asking these questions on the Dumpshock forums, but after a week without a response, I thought I'd try here instead. I played Season 5 for the first time last weekend, and I'm trying to fix a few character sheet errors and figure out some solutions to problems I encountered. I enjoyed the game, but there was at least one point where I was taking a -5 penalty while unwounded (Background Count 3 + Mild allergy to Pollutants). Hopefully this is the right place to ask about these issues.
Background Count:
Is there any way around the penalties other than Home Ground (Astral Acclimation)? My Physical Adept was running with a penalty almost constantly in both adventures I played. It's at the point where I'm considering spending the 20 Karma to get the Home Ground quality - if that even works for the CZ.
Also, does Background Count affect Initiative? The way we did it at my table for the 3 adepts was to reduce the total initiative by the Background Count quality, up to the level of the character's Improved Reaction. So, if you had Improved Reflexes 2 and the Background Count was 3, you'd lose 2 from your total Initiative roll.
Pollution:
I went with Mentor Spirit (Eagle) for my character, which gives a Mild pollutant allergy. How often will this affect me in Missions (particularly the Containment Zone), and what sort of gear can negate the penalties? I assume a Hazmat suit would do the trick, but that's a bit extreme. Is a Respirator sufficient? Gas Mask? Chemical Protection on my armor? Chemsuit?
Contacts and Gear:
A character has a Fixer (Loyalty 6, Connection 1). Based on the rules on page 419, he can fence items for the character at 30% value. Does that apply in Missions as well?
Does everything you buy in Missions have to be overseen by a GM, or is there a system where your Loyalty and Connection with a contact can speed that up? I can understand needing a GM to purchase that Ingram Valiant (Availablity 12F), but a Ruger Super Warhawk (Availability 4R) shouldn't be that hard to find on the streets if you have the right contact. Both games pushed right up against the 4 hour run time, partly because a few characters (particularly the two riggers) were asking the GM to oversee their purchases. It would be a lot easier to be able to handle the simple stuff between missions.
How hard is it to upgrade components inside an existing piece of cyberware, such as adding Vision Enhancement 3 to an existing pair of cybereyes. Assuming the contact makes the relevant rolls to get the gear, how much does the character have to pay, and how long is the recovery time?
My wife's street samurai has a Cyberarm with a Cyber Holster, which says it can hold any pistol- or smaller-sized weapon. She has a machine pistol (Ares Crusader II) in it. Is that acceptable?
The same Cyberarm has Armor 2. As I'm reading the rules, her Armor Jacket plus the cyberarm armor gives her a total armor rating of 14. Is that right?
Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide.
-Fedifensor (aka Breeze, Gunslinger Adept)
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Fedifensor,
I tried asking these questions on the Dumpshock forums, but after a week without a response, I thought I'd try here instead.
Sorry, I did not see your questions earlier, or I would have replied sooner.
I played Season 5 for the first time last weekend, and I'm trying to fix a few character sheet errors and figure out some solutions to problems I encountered. I enjoyed the game, but there was at least one point where I was taking a -5 penalty while unwounded (Background Count 3 + Mild allergy to Pollutants). Hopefully this is the right place to ask about these issues.
Ouch, that is a steep penalty.
Background Count:
Is there any way around the penalties other than Home Ground (Astral Acclimation)?
Turn off your adept powers, according to Bull. Basically, when you are in a Background count, if the Penalties that you receive are greater than the benefit of the Adept power, turn off the magic and go with your non-magic stats.
My Physical Adept was running with a penalty almost constantly in both adventures I played. It's at the point where I'm considering spending the 20 Karma to get the Home Ground quality - if that even works for the CZ.
According to Bull, the Home Ground quality should cover an area about a square mile in size, and the CZ is about 100 sq miles in size. The Home Ground quality can work in a specific area, but Home Ground (Containment Zone) is too wide.
Also, does Background Count affect Initiative? The way we did it at my table for the 3 adepts was to reduce the total initiative by the Background Count quality, up to the level of the character's Improved Reaction. So, if you had Improved Reflexes 2 and the Background Count was 3, you'd lose 2 from your total Initiative roll.
Well, if the Adepts have Improved Reflexes active, they should subtract the value of the background count from their initiative value. As for how the Background count would effect skills that benefit from the additional reaction, that is still under debate, but the power IS increasing their reaction. So, if they don't want the penalties, turn off the reflexes.
Pollution:
I went with Mentor Spirit (Eagle) for my character, which gives a Mild pollutant allergy. How often will this affect me in Missions (particularly the Containment Zone), and what sort of gear can negate the penalties? I assume a Hazmat suit would do the trick, but that's a bit extreme. Is a Respirator sufficient? Gas Mask? Chemical Protection on my armor? Chemsuit?
Hmmmm.... this one could be argued. I would think respirator or gas mask, but I don't know the answer to that question. Technically, you could also buy off the allergy.
Contacts and Gear:
A character has a Fixer (Loyalty 6, Connection 1). Based on the rules on page 419, he can fence items for the character at 30% value. Does that apply in Missions as well?
That is how you sell most items in Missions.
Does everything you buy in Missions have to be overseen by a GM, or is there a system where your Loyalty and Connection with a contact can speed that up? I can understand needing a GM to purchase that Ingram Valiant (Availablity 12F), but a Ruger Super Warhawk (Availability 4R) shouldn't be that hard to find on the streets if you have the right contact. Both games pushed right up against the 4 hour run time, partly because a few characters (particularly the two riggers) were asking the GM to oversee their purchases. It would be a lot easier to be able to handle the simple stuff between missions.
You don'y have to have a GM oversee purchases. If you want to purchase it yourself, you must use the buying hits rule (4 dice for 1 hit) and pay the relevant time from your lifestyle (assuming that you can find the item). A contact cannot speed up delivery times, but they can search for an item while you do other things, effectively speeding up the search. I will have to look back at the Missions FAQ for more specific rules.
How hard is it to upgrade components inside an existing piece of cyberware, such as adding Vision Enhancement 3 to an existing pair of cybereyes. Assuming the contact makes the relevant rolls to get the gear, how much does the character have to pay,
Very similar to the above answer.
and how long is the recovery time?
A week, I believe.
My wife's street samurai has a Cyberarm with a Cyber Holster, which says it can hold any pistol- or smaller-sized weapon. She has a machine pistol (Ares Crusader II) in it. Is that acceptable?
That sounds reasonable. My hacking adept carries around a Steyer TMP for a similar reason. FYI, of the machine pistols, the Steyer TMP is the only one that can do Surpressive Fire.
The same Cyberarm has Armor 2. As I'm reading the rules, her Armor Jacket plus the cyberarm armor gives her a total armor rating of 14. Is that right?
That is correct, as far as I have read the rules.
I will Try to add some links to Bull's answers later.
- The Masked Ferret
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Background Count:
Is there any way around the penalties other than Home Ground (Astral Acclimation)? My Physical Adept was running with a penalty almost constantly in both adventures I played. It's at the point where I'm considering spending the 20 Karma to get the Home Ground quality - if that even works for the CZ.
Try Adept Centering?
By the way: If the background count is X, you lose X to all rolls (and Initiative) boosted by Magic in any way. So at your IR2, you suffer a -3 on Initiative. You'd also suffer a -3 on dodging stuff, so basically your dodge pools are down 1 and your initiative are at +2d6-1.
The GM doesn't oversee any downtime activities, Bull said he'd clarify it later but heavily implied you cannot roll for things. This includes purchases, spellcasting (for Quickened Spells) and Summoning+Binding. Anything that echoes into the next run you are not even allowed to do with a roll anymore, you must do it with buying hits. So they can't roll to see whether they get the item, you simply compare (Connection+Connection+Loyalty)/4 rounded down, with Availability/4 rounded down.
This would also mean no Quickening an extremely lucky spell, or Binding a very lucky Summoning.
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Ouch, that is a steep penalty.
Especially for my 2nd game in 5th edition...and my first game had me at a constant -2.
Turn off your adept powers, according to Bull. Basically, when you are in a Background count, if the Penalties that you receive are greater than the benefit of the Adept power, turn off the magic and go with your non-magic stats.
If I have to shut down the main thing about my character, I may as well tell Mr. Johnson to slot himself and go home. Sure, I can live without Increased Accuracy (Pistols) 1...but Improved Reflexes 3 is another story.
According to Bull, the Home Ground quality should cover an area about a square mile in size, and the CZ is about 100 sq miles in size. The Home Ground quality can work in a specific area, but Home Ground (Containment Zone) is too wide.
Sounds like a vastly overpriced quality - the area is so small it will basically never come up in a mission. Especially if I'm still playing in Season 6, and we move to a different city.
Well, if the Adepts have Improved Reflexes active, they should subtract the value of the background count from their initiative value. As for how the Background count would effect skills that benefit from the additional reaction, that is still under debate, but the power IS increasing their reaction. So, if they don't want the penalties, turn off the reflexes.
Again, not really viable. If I have to turn off the most expensive part of my character, I'll just leave. And if it happens in every Mission (as it did in my first two), I'll just stop playing Missions. I don't really want to...but I'm not really big on campaigns where some characters are heavily penalized while others waltz around without problems.
Hmmmm.... this one could be argued. I would think respirator or gas mask, but I don't know the answer to that question. Technically, you could also buy off the allergy.
I didn't think that was possible, since it comes from the Mentor Spirit.
You don'y have to have a GM oversee purchases. If you want to purchase it yourself, you must use the buying hits rule (4 dice for 1 hit) and pay the relevant time from your lifestyle (assuming that you can find the item). A contact cannot speed up delivery times, but they can search for an item while you do other things, effectively speeding up the search. I will have to look back at the Missions FAQ for more specific rules.
I read somewhere else that you can't take more than a month between missions. I'm buying Arcana 1 and initiating (to get Adept Centering), and that gives me 6 dice, which I can use to buy 1 success and initiate in a month's time. Does that mean I need to buy Arcana to 3 to get my second level of initiation, and the third level is basically unreachable?
That sounds reasonable. My hacking adept carries around a Steyer TMP for a similar reason. FYI, of the machine pistols, the Steyer TMP is the only one that can do Surpressive Fire.
I noticed that, but the cost in bullets is rather high.
I will Try to add some links to Bull's answers later.
Thanks for the help!
Try Adept Centering?
That's the plan.
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I read somewhere else that you can't take more than a month between missions. I'm buying Arcana 1 and initiating (to get Adept Centering), and that gives me 6 dice, which I can use to buy 1 success and initiate in a month's time. Does that mean I need to buy Arcana to 3 to get my second level of initiation, and the third level is basically unreachable?
Actually 6 dice would be sufficient for 3 levels of initiation. It is an extended test. So six dice will get you three successes buying hits. 6 dice = 1 success, 5 dice = 1 success, then 4 dice = 1 success for a total of 3. Since you cannot take more than a month between missions, but you CAN keep any progress you have made, grades 2 and three would require adventuring between completion of the initiation ritual.
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Again, not really viable. If I have to turn off the most expensive part of my character, I'll just leave. And if it happens in every Mission (as it did in my first two), I'll just stop playing Missions. I don't really want to...but I'm not really big on campaigns where some characters are heavily penalized while others waltz around without problems.
It shouldn't happen in every Mission in Season 5, but in a significant amount of them.
As Daedalus said, Initiation is an Extended Test. To quote the FAQ: "Any week spent on a Shadowrun interrupts your training, but you can resume where you left off. If you spend more than three weeks without resuming your training, you lose any progress made and must start from the beginning"
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Turn off your adept powers, according to Bull. Basically, when you are in a Background count, if the Penalties that you receive are greater than the benefit of the Adept power, turn off the magic and go with your non-magic stats.
If I have to shut down the main thing about my character, I may as well tell Mr. Johnson to slot himself and go home. Sure, I can live without Increased Accuracy (Pistols) 1...but Improved Reflexes 3 is another story.
While I admit it's pretty ridiculous for a Background Count to both affect your Reaction increase and decrease your Initiative Score, that still leaves you with +1 Reaction and +3D6+1-2 Initiative with a BC of 2, and +3D6-3 Initiative with a BC of 3. It's the other powers (Attribute Boost, Increased Physical Attribute, Improved Ability, Enhanced Accuracy) that are hurt the most.
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I admit it's pretty ridiculous for a Background Count to both affect your Reaction increase and decrease your Initiative Score, that still leaves you with +1 Reaction and +3D6+1-2 Initiative with a BC of 2, and +3D6-3 Initiative with a BC of 3. It's the other powers (Attribute Boost, Increased Physical Attribute, Improved Ability, Enhanced Accuracy) that are hurt the most.
I'm more concerned about the part of the FAQ that felt the need to talk about double-digit Background Counts...
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Apparently there was a communication snafu between me and ZeConster: The Background Count does not decrease your Reaction, it counts as negative modifier on any tests that are in any way augmented by Magic. This means you do not take the penalty twice on Initiative, so you don't get a -2 from Magical Reaction and -2 from Magical Initiative Dice. This puts you, with a Background Count of 2, on a +3-2=+1 on your Dodge and a +3-2+3d6=+1+3d6 extra Initiative from Increased Reflexes, and a +3-2=+1 on any Reaction-skills as well.
The heaviest damage indeed is to things you only increase very slightly. On the other hand, if you get multiple powers boosting the same skill test, you only take the penalty once. So Enhanced Accuracy, Improved Ability, Increased Agility and Agility Boost at the same time results in an awful lot of boost and only a single Background Count penalty.
Double-digit Background Counts pretty much only apply in Space and reaaaaaaally crazy places, Fedifensor. The worst I've ever seen in a mission myself is a -4 in SR4, I doubt SR5 will often go beyond that.
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The background counts suck. Deckers are likewise pretty screwed. Chicago is NOT a nice and friendly place, for anyone.
This season is intended to be a challenge for players, in a LOT of different ways.
Bull
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The background counts suck. Deckers are likewise pretty screwed. Chicago is NOT a nice and friendly place, for anyone.
This season is intended to be a challenge for players, in a LOT of different ways.
I can't disagree (especially since I've only played two modules), but I wonder what challenges the CZ has for those other than deckers and the magically active? It's not that we don't like a challenge...it's that the problems are focused on specific types of characters instead of all shadowrunners.
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Well, if you take out deckers (which I'm guessing includes technomancers in this case) and magic users, aren't you basically left with street samurai, faces, and the "other" category? I imagine those will all have some issues if there's spirits in there.
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The same massive Noise rating that screws deckers and technomancers over is going to mean that the street samurai who actually have their wireless turned on still won't benefit from their wireless bonuses. The faces have to deal with the penalties associated with being an outsider. The "other" people are probably being hit by one or more of the things that messes with everyone else.
All in all, it looks like the entire season is going to be brutal. This should be fun. Definitely different from the way that I enjoyed Season 3, but still a lot of fun.
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The same massive Noise rating that screws deckers and technomancers over is going to mean that the street samurai who actually have their wireless turned on still won't benefit from their wireless bonuses. The faces have to deal with the penalties associated with being an outsider. The "other" people are probably being hit by one or more of the things that messes with everyone else.
I wouldn't call it massive Noise. If the default Noise is 2, can't you just spend 80 nuyen on a (legal, non-hacking) Signal Scrub program to counter it? As for a face being an outsider...I've already encountered one character whose background is that they grew up in the CZ.
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Signal Scrub is still a Cyberprogram so only Deckers and RIggers can use it. A wireless smartgun has Device Rating 2, so a Noise of 3 will disable its Wireless Functionality.
For Deckers and Riggers yes, they can counter Noise 2 with just 1 program. They'd still face any other source of noise, but they can counter default background noise with ease.
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From the deckers I've seen so far, noise has not been an issue. Noise mostly seems to be a penalty to the non-hackers and non- riggers who need wireless for something, since they are not equipped to cancel large amounts of noise. It does feel a bit like awakened characters( mages especially) get hit the hardest in season 5. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The CZ is a terrible place.
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I think background count being a dice pool penalty is MUCH better than being a Magic Attribute modifier. Nothing like seeing most of your powers go away or having to overcast spells just to get a decent force.
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True, tequila, very true. Old BCs were terrifying at -1 or -2. Now you barely feel a -1 or -2.
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Signal Scrub is still a Cyberprogram so only Deckers and RIggers can use it. A wireless smartgun has Device Rating 2, so a Noise of 3 will disable its Wireless Functionality.
I am curious about how people view common cyberprograms and commlinks. The text on page 441 just says they are "used in cyberdecks", but doesn't exclude their use in commlinks. More importantly, the software has no availability restriction, while the cyberdecks are Forbidden (12F).
Regardless, couldn't you just use a data cable to hook your smartgun to your commlink, slave the gun to the com, and use the higher device rating?
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or just connect the smartgun directly to your head? :)
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I am curious about how people view common cyberprograms and commlinks. The text on page 441 just says they are "used in cyberdecks", but doesn't exclude their use in commlinks. More importantly, the software has no availability restriction, while the cyberdecks are Forbidden (12F).
It's weird, yes, but on the other hand a wageslave could be buying software to aid their work on the job with the corp-supplied deck. Or an inspector could be bringing their software to employ.
As for cables: Yes, you can use cables to use the Smartgun, but if I recall the rules correctly the Smartgun itself must be wireless to get the wireless bonuses.
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As for cables: Yes, you can use cables to use the Smartgun, but if I recall the rules correctly the Smartgun itself must be wireless to get the wireless bonuses.
This. You could still get the Smart Link limit increase if you used the wire, but the wireless additional two dice to your dice pool requires wireless to be on.
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I am curious about how people view common cyberprograms and commlinks. The text on page 441 just says they are "used in cyberdecks", but doesn't exclude their use in commlinks. More importantly, the software has no availability restriction, while the cyberdecks are Forbidden (12F).
It's weird, yes, but on the other hand a wageslave could be buying software to aid their work on the job with the corp-supplied deck. Or an inspector could be bringing their software to employ.
And of course, RCCs can also use some cyberprograms, and RCCs are only Restricted.
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(RCCs might be able to use others too, not entirely clear.)
Oh, and Drones can use Cyberprograms just like RCCs, there's 7 non-Restricted Drones. The programs they listed as interesting for RCCs include 4 Common Programs, so a drone could for example run Virtual Machine, Signal Scrub and Encryption and still have space left for a single Autosoft.
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As for cables: Yes, you can use cables to use the Smartgun, but if I recall the rules correctly the Smartgun itself must be wireless to get the wireless bonuses.
That doesn't really make sense, as the wireless bonus is gained from accessing data in "the cloud"/the Matrix. If the gun can access the data by going through a commlink that is much more resistant to noise, why wouldn't it get the bonus?
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While the Wireless Bonuses section mentions using commlinks to defend them, it does not mention routing them through the commlink to get access to the Matrix. So it's a GM's call there.
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Signal Scrub is still a Cyberprogram so only Deckers and RIggers can use it. A wireless smartgun has Device Rating 2, so a Noise of 3 will disable its Wireless Functionality.
I am curious about how people view common cyberprograms and commlinks. The text on page 441 just says they are "used in cyberdecks", but doesn't exclude their use in commlinks. More importantly, the software has no availability restriction, while the cyberdecks are Forbidden (12F).
The other consideration is that on page 243 it states "Common programs are ones that are pretty harmless and available most everywhere for hobbyists and Matrix professionals."
I highly doubt that a "hobbyist" is going to drop 50,000 on a bare bones deck just to run a browse program. I am really hoping that they release some more detailed rules regarding what commlinks can and cannot do. (and once and for all end the debate whether or not they can run a couple common programs)
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I highly doubt that a "hobbyist" is going to drop 50,000 on a bare bones deck [..]
A hobbyist would be buying an anti-Noise program for his cheapass drone to fly around though. Nor does he need Browse to Matrix Search, all Browse does is half the search interval.
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A hobbyist would be buying an anti-Noise program for his cheapass drone to fly around though. Nor does he need Browse to Matrix Search, all Browse does is half the search interval.
It's a prety big stretch to say that all hobbyists and Matrix professionals are using common programs just for drones...especially Browse. Your example is valid, but does not address the problem at hand.
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Matrix Professionals I addressed twice in the past.
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What is the default Noise level in Chicago? Do we know?
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Chicago itself is like other cities. The Containment Zone is, according to the Hot Patch, an average of 2 iirc.
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Source for the hot patch? I can't find anything about Noise in the 0.99 or 1.0 versions of the FAQ about noise (or background count, for that matter).
EDIT:
DOH! Never mind... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12034805/SRM5%20Hot%20Patch%20Errata%20v1.0.pdf
"Besides the background count, the CZ is a virtual nightmare for deckers and technomancers. The persistent low-level background radiation coupled with a distinct lack of modern matrix broadcasting equipment through the area results in a high level of constant background Noise that makes even basic matrix communication difficult. Noise levels will vary from area to area, but unless otherwise specified in the scene, assume a default Noise level of 2 anytime the characters are within the Containment Zone."
They conveniently forgot to include "street samurai with extensive cybernetic implants" in the first sentence... Background noise of 2 will only affect "general appliances, public terminals, entertainment systems" since as per page 421 the noise has to be greater than the device rating, but that means that in most of Chicago a 200-1200 nuyen piece of gear (a R1 to R6 jammer) could potentially disconnect basic cyberware from the 'trix, unless the answer to the below question is that the device uses the higher rating.
Follow-up, to (hopefully) be included in the next version of the FAQ:
"Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test."
Since noise does not apply to defense tests, how does noise affect devices that are slaved to devices with higher device ratings? (i.e. what is used to calculate noise for basic cyberware (rating 2) slaved to an advanced commlink (rating 6).
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Any street sam not running wires in the CZ deserves getting shot up.
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Michael, what do you mean "running wires"? How would I "run wires" from the hydraulic jacks in my legs to my commlink, and would that let me use the wireless bonus (+6 dice to running, for example)? If not, then some implants just became rather less useful...
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You don't get the wireless bonus, but at least that way you can still connect smartguns and get their Accuracy bonus, which are rather useful (especially with shotguns).
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Wait, what? OK, so basic cyberware is Device Rating 2, which equals the background noise. If you have a datajack, you also get noise reduction 1, meaning noise has to be 4 or more to affect you.
That still sucks for anyone using 'ware unless you can slave said ware to your Device Rating 6 commlink, as noise would have to hit 8 or more before it cuts out your 'ware. This definitely needs clarifications...
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How would it suck for people using ware? All it'd cut out is the wireless bonuses.
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Because the 'ware I just paid 400k for could in large part be negated by an 800 nuyen piece of gear?
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Knowing the character you're talking about, the loss of wireless does hurt a little bit, but I don't think it is that bad. What in particular are you worried about losing?
With that said, they did move a lot of the more useful boni to wireless, whcih does suck anywhere you are going to have to deal with heavy noise.
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Wireless: Skilljacks can run Ratingx3 instead of Ratingx2, Skillwires get +1 on the Limits, you can stack Reaction Enhancers with Wired Reflexes, a buncha containers and such use Free Actions, you get +1 die with Hydraulic jacks, that's about all. All other functionality will still work.
Technically, Jack, those bonuses weren't moved. They were removed and replaced with limit changes (which I like, since they're no longer 100% required for everyone), then reintroduced as wireless boni.
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Knowing the character you're talking about, the loss of wireless does hurt a little bit, but I don't think it is that bad. What in particular are you worried about losing?
With that said, they did move a lot of the more useful boni to wireless, whcih does suck anywhere you are going to have to deal with heavy noise.
if you think that is bad, try to play a adept Decker in Chicago. Negatives from both noise and background count.
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Smartgun, Michael. Grenades. Grenade Launchers (oh, sorry, no airburst link for you; come on...)
And what about the wireless bonus on a Shock Hand? I asked a question about power points in Chicago (because fluff indicates there are none), and without wireless I suddenly can't recharge it anywhere. Really?
The logical solution is to allow a device that is slaved to another device to use the master device rating for purposes of determining noise.
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Smartgun, Michael. Grenades. Grenade Launchers (oh, sorry, no airburst link for you; come on...)
But we weren't talking about firearms and projectile weapons. You were specifically saying that the ware you paid 400k for would in large part be negated by jamming, not the guns.
As for the guns: Smartguns merely don't give their +1/+2 dice if you wire them and you can still throw Motion Sensor grenades.
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Smartguns are included in all ranged cyberweapons...
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And you'd still have the Accuracy bonus, just not the dice bonus. In fact you won't even have to bother with a cable that way, since you have a non-wireless connection mental already.
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Smartguns are included in all ranged cyberweapons...
Perhaps next time you say your "ware" is negated, you could clarify that you mean cyberweapons, instead of cyberware and bioware, which one typically means with "ware".
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Duly noted, ZeConster; but cyberguns is and should be considered 'ware; if that wasn't obvious, perhaps you need to expand your definition of what 'ware is as cyberguns can just as easily be installed directly in the flesh and automatically come with smartgun systems. In the mean time, I'll try to be more clear in the future.
Anyway, this thread has slid a little off-topic, and is also being discussed here, so let's continue this there and let this thread be for FAQ requests. Cheers for all your input, everyone.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12898.0;topicseen
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Regarding taxes: In Sprawl Wilds, a SINner can cash in a bounty, since they are the one individual cashing it in, should they pay taxes over the full amount or just their cut since they distribute the rest of the cash to the others?
Without taxes it's 15.000, with taxes we're talking 12.750, without SIN (or risking a fake SIN) we're talking 8.500 bounty max instead.
Since the SINner cashes the bounty by themselves and thus receives the cash themselves, I assume full taxes apply. On the other hand, most of the cash goes to other people's cuts, so one could argue that only the SINners cut should be eligible for taxes. Since taxes are an abstraction, applying to all income from any source, it is reasonable to assume it only applies to your actual income, not to an entire bounty that you immediately distribute. Not to mention that otherwise you force the trick that they do not take the Johnson's pay but a bigger cut from the bounty instead, thus reducing the amount of taxes paid. Which is rather complicated and annoying to do, so it'd be more reasonable to only apply taxes over the SINner's cut of the bounty.
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I argued about Michael's point at our session yesterday, being of the school that the runner in question only had to pay her own share's worth in taxes.
Michael already pointed out much of my argument - taxes are handled as an abstract system over all the runner's income, even the (rather sizable) part that the IRS is pretty much blind to as it's handled in the shadows. By the same argument, only the runner's actual income should be counted; a bounty that she has to split with 4 people counts only for her share. Abstracting it to work as a flat rate over all income cuts both ways.
In-universe, it makes sense too. The character will have to declare the bounty's income, and pay full taxes on it. The character will also, usually, pay full taxes over any "illegal" income she gained (presumably the IRS doesn't care, or it's instead laundered/hidden away with costs associated with that). However, since she received a large bounty (of which she had to give most away to fellow runners), she now has a large amount of income she already payed taxes over to hide further less-then-legal income. In other words, she can use the fact that she already payed a large amount of taxes to launder the money she'll later receive through running. Mechanically, that ends up the same as her only paying taxes over her share of the bounty.
So that means that, in my opinion, both the mechanical interpretation of the rules as the in-universe explanation thereof supports only paying taxes over the SINner's cut over the bounty.
(It ended up not mattering as we dealt with it another way, but the question will probably come up later in similar situations)
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Speaking of the bounty: how does it (or other external revenue: one character decided to fence the commlinks belonging to the gangers in the northern camp) combine with the GM reward thing? Does the GM get the same 'cut' as the playing characters?
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I argued about Michael's point at our session yesterday, being of the school that the runner in question only had to pay her own share's worth in taxes.
Michael already pointed out much of my argument - taxes are handled as an abstract system over all the runner's income, even the (rather sizable) part that the IRS is pretty much blind to as it's handled in the shadows. By the same argument, only the runner's actual income should be counted; a bounty that she has to split with 4 people counts only for her share. Abstracting it to work as a flat rate over all income cuts both ways.
In-universe, it makes sense too. The character will have to declare the bounty's income, and pay full taxes on it. The character will also, usually, pay full taxes over any "illegal" income she gained (presumably the IRS doesn't care, or it's instead laundered/hidden away with costs associated with that). However, since she received a large bounty (of which she had to give most away to fellow runners), she now has a large amount of income she already payed taxes over to hide further less-then-legal income. In other words, she can use the fact that she already payed a large amount of taxes to launder the money she'll later receive through running. Mechanically, that ends up the same as her only paying taxes over her share of the bounty.
So that means that, in my opinion, both the mechanical interpretation of the rules as the in-universe explanation thereof supports only paying taxes over the SINner's cut over the bounty.
(It ended up not mattering as we dealt with it another way, but the question will probably come up later in similar situations)
I can see the point, but if you think about it, the IRS doesn't care if you are splitting the money up with other people are not - especially if they are SINless. If you are paying taxes at the time of the bounty being gain then everyone that is getting a split will pay an equal amount of the tax that you had to pay. You are still getting more for the bounty than you would have otherwise. If you want to get the full amount, then use a raiting 6 fake SIN and try to beat the system. Having a SIN as a negative quality should not turn into a positive IMO.
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[spoiler]Keep in mind that with Season 5 not out yet, it's near-impossible to have a rating 6 fake SIN so that is not an option. As for not being positive: It still IS a positive benefit even when taxes apply, since you do not risk the 36% at losing a rating 4 value 10.000 fake SIN and still get significantly more money than when cashing it in through a Knight Errant contact. Plus the base pay of the mission is really low, the bounty is an essential part of the reward.
Also: If taxes are paid over the entire bounty, like I stated it encourages annoying bookkeeping, and with a regular team a SINner might arrange for another runner to take his share and distribute it as 'bounty' to the others, while the SINner takes the entire bounty and makes up for it in the next mission to the runner who handled the cost. So you get a dodgy scheme to prevent double-taxing, which hardly is intended.
And of course Bull forgot SINners paid taxes, so chances are taxes weren't kept in mind when writing the bounty part.[/spoiler]
I am not saying it should be one way or another, but your arguments are only one side of the equation and I can find good points in both sides. So I hope Bull will explain the intent (as well as a ruling on how the bounty plays into the GM Rewards). :)