Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Bull on <08-07-13/0848:16>
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Shadowrun 5th Ed Missions "Hot Patch Errata v1.0" now available! This is a temporary Errata document to cover the bare basics for Shadowrun 5, Missions Season 5, and Character Creation. This is not the final SR5 Errata, and some things may change when that is released, but this document will see you through Gen Con and Dragon*Con as needed until the official Errata is finished and published.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12034805/SRM5%20Hot%20Patch%20Errata%20v1.0.pdf
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Thanks!
Especially glad to see the autosoft costs.
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Ouch. Standard level 2 background count unless otherwise informed.
Good thing my character history tells me why I have to be in Chicago for at least 1 year, otherwise I would leave by the most expedient route (if not a faster one :) )
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Tiny note: Book mentions Used for both Cyberware and Bioware, I assume we can get Used Non-Cultured Bioware as well?
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Yeah. I sorta lump Bio and Cyber together. But yeah, can't get used Cultured, since that's tied too heavily to your DNA. :)
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Mystic adepts (and me) seem more sufficiently nerfed now. I'll have some slight adjusting to do. (I think 5 karma). I'm not actually raising my magic at all, so that part hasn't affected me, but knowing that I'm more limited there in the future makes me feel not so broken.
We didn't use background count correctly when we ran the 4 missions in sprawl wilds (we ran it much more severe). I'm very glad that got spelled out before we got to GenCon, since I'm sure it will come into play quite a bit in Chicago.
Our cybered up street Sam was cussing a bit about used cyber/bioware. He would have used it had he known it was legal 6 weeks ago.
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Yeah, the background Count stuff is a new ruling, up until then we were faking it with the SR4 rules. But SR4 BGC's were just a tad too broken (And my god were Aspected powerful), so we're changing it up a bit. This seems a bit more balanced and makes them impactful without completely neutering your character.
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Xenon brought this one up:
Q: Does the "no buying PP for karma after chargen" rule still apply to Mystic Adepts? In other words, say I have 6 Magic at chargen, I am allowed to buy 6 PP then. If I only buy 5 then, can I pay 5 karma after chargen to get that sixth allowed Power Point? Or is the opportunity still fully lost after chargen?
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It's a shame Background Count doesn't counteract someone with 6 Sustaining Foci Force 1 using reagents, but on the other hand they would pay quite a few spell slots and constant money for it, while also being hurt by wards. If there's a few of those around from time to time, they'll become more careful. And they also get hurt by the fact they pay money for what can be a lousy roll.
So weapon number 1 against those people is gone now. :) And I know the background count won't be as bad for when we play Ashes this saturday.
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The changes to Mystic Adepts feel about right. Still good, but not ++good to the point of out shining Adeps or Magicians.
I like the change to Background Count. It was brutal in 4e.
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For Phys Ads in Background Count Areas, can the penalty exceed the original bonus? So for instance would a Phys Ad with Improved Ability 1 take a -2 Dice penalty in a BGC of 2?
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For Phys Ads in Background Count Areas, can the penalty exceed the original bonus? So for instance would a Phys Ad with Improved Ability 1 take a -2 Dice penalty in a BGC of 2?
Ofcource it can, they even take that -2 even if they have power that doesn't even give dice bonus. ::)
The no powerpoints at all except at initation taken instead of metamagic, seems horrible overnerf on myssadds., really hope that doesn't go into the actual errata.
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No offense Max, but given that you've been wrong on the facts on almost everything you've said in the last month, you were not who i was looking for an answer from.
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Please leave answering to Bull, we need the official sources here.
As for Mystic Adepts: We could debate on that but wouldn't it be better to actually do that in the current debate topic on Mystic Adepts? I already gave my opinion on it there.
To add to Crunch' question: If I have Improved Strength 1, would the background count give me a penalty on all tests using Strength? Would melee attacks suffer a penalty? Would my damage go down?
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No offense Max, but given that you've been wrong on the facts on almost everything you've said in the last month, you were not who i was looking for an answer from.
Here you go and thanks for personal attack always feels so nice ;)
[quote name='Bull' date='Aug 7 2013, 08:45 PM' post='1251936']
And yes, even if the power doesn't give you dice, if the skill you're using benefits from magic, you get penalized, because you are being made physically ill and moving through astral quicksand.
Bull
[/quote]
Also the Errata is actually quite clear on this matter, after all it as a example lists powers that do not give a dicepool bonus at all, ergo penalty has to be able to be higher then the amount of bonus dice gotten.
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Mäx, aside from including the quote the first time, perhaps you should have included the full quote by Bull on dumpshock (emphasis mine):
Initiative will need to be clarified, yes. Right now, no direct penalty. It'll probably translate to a flat penalty (Since dice would be a bit ridiculous in that case, because no, it is not a dice pool).
Powers can be turned on and off. Always have been. Should have been clarified in the new book though. Otherwise Adepts can NEVER go through wards.
And yes, even if the power doesn't give you dice, if the skill you're using benefits from magic, you get penalized, because you are being made physically ill and moving through astral quicksand.
Bull
So if the bonus isn't worth the penalty, you can just turn the power off.
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Thanks Ze. That's about the level of accuracy I thought I was getting.
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So if the bonus isn't worth the penalty, you can just turn the power off.
Actually you can't, not unless the errata adds that in.
Also why should have i bothered to go get the quaote first time, the errata is clear on the matter(i only did because crunchs personal attack annoyed me enought)
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Many of the powers have to be activated to be "turned on", so you can definately turn off at least some powers.
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Many of the powers have to be activated to be "turned on", so you can definately turn off at least some powers.
6 powers need to be activated to get their benefit, but the rest of them are always on.
There's no mention of turning intrinsic powers on or off.
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Bull would seem to disagree with you, in the section of the quote you conveniently omitted.
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Bull would seem to disagree with you, in the section of the quote you conveniently omitted.
You mean the part right before the part that says it should be mentioned in the book.
Bull is mostly reffering to older editions.
Also that part had nothing to do with the topic, so why would i include the whole post(seriously could you stop with them damm personal attacks)
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That's not a personal attack. Its an observation of behavior.
And frankly I'd ask you to drop the repested accusation. At some point the repeated accusation that I'm attacking you by disagreeing with you and asking for confirmation becomes an attack itself.
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Guys. Chill.
1) You can take negatives higher than bonuses you get.
2) You CAN choose to not use (i.e., turn off) your powers.
3) If there is a dice pool that is benefiting from an Adept power or magical spell in any way, you take a dice pool penalty.
4) If there is no dice pool associated (i.e., initiative rolls), the rules don't cover that. My gut says Initiative would just take a flat penalty, but for now don't worry about it, it'll be addressed in the final version of these. For now (and for Missions) just let it slide. unless you're in a Mana Void or Flux (BGC 13+), in which case you start taking damage.
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Thank you Bull.
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Probably not on your radar, Bull, but there's no such thing as fluxuate; this should likely be replaced with "fluctuate" in the sentence "The count will fluxuate wildly at times".
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I know this has been discussed in other forums about House rules, but for Missions....
Is there any discussion about errata in missions for grenades or AOE spells? they seem horribly overpowered, and I think would eventually cause every SRM player to carry a grenade launcher or chuck AOE spells in any combat. I know I would hate to see that, and as well as turn off new players who would not be happy to see their characters die or be unconscious to one grenade.
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I'd think about (as a house rule or a suggestion) allowing targets to take a Dodge interrupt action (p. 168), with the -2 modifier for being targeted by an area-effect attack (p. 190), except that it wouldn't stage down the attacker's hits but it would allow the target to make an "emergency move action" that moves him/her away from the explosion point a distance of 1 meter per hit. It still costs -5 initiative score (like any Dodge interrupt), lasts only for that attack, and it's still likely that the target will take some damage unless he/she has a large defense dice pool.
On the other hand, grenades and area spells are supposed to be dangerous, and SR4 didn't really capture that as much.
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Here's the link to Aaron's "offical" post about grenades and Indirect AOE spells:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238426#msg238426
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At some point, Missions will have to address the issue. Either you have several people leave the campaign as a result of too many TPKs, or people start relentlessly abusing grenades and indirect AoE spells to break modules.
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I think you'll see both. The people who get sick of seeing every gunfight devolve into everyone spread out, huddled behind cover, blindly hurling massive AOE damage will bolt. The ones who recognize that what's good for the goose is good for the gander will spam semi-auto bursts from their MGL-12s and vaporize any foes foolish enough to stand with 10m of their battle buddy.
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just full auto them in the face. Ouch. Called shot full auto. Sacrifice 4 dice for more damage. I just wish there was one that could up AP
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I think that's the right way to look at it. Either players break games, or GMs TPK. If the goal of SRMs is to get people into to shadowrun, an errata on it is better sooner than later.
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Question: If a Mystic Adept has e.g. 6 Magic and 5 Power Points from chargen, and they take an essence drop to 5.0 essence, do they:
1: Lose 1 Magic and 1 Power Point, always losing 1 PP if they lose 1 Magic, or
2: Lose 1 Magic and with Magic >= Chargen-PP not lose a PP, like with Initiation grades?
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Question: If a Mystic Adept has e.g. 6 Magic and 5 Power Points from chargen, and they take an essence drop to 5.0 essence, do they:
1: Lose 1 Magic and 1 Power Point, always losing 1 PP if they lose 1 Magic, or
2: Lose 1 Magic and with Magic >= Chargen-PP not lose a PP, like with Initiation grades?
gotta be 1 surely. They still haven't bought PP up to Magic level.
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Yes, but with Initiation grades you only lose them if your max magic dips below your Initiation grade. Not to mention chargen difficulties: Do you buy the PP before or after getting the ware? I can argue both ways.
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Looking for one more clarification on background count, I understand that it effects all magic tests,
does that include drain resistance tests?
I just want to know before I sit down at a table at Con on the Cob
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Good question, since it effects all tests boosted by Magic. A drain test isn't boosted by Magic normally. Unless you use Centering, or boost your drain with magical means. However, it's also possible that as a magic-related test it's also penalized.
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Yes, but with Initiation grades you only lose them if your max magic dips below your Initiation grade. Not to mention chargen difficulties: Do you buy the PP before or after getting the ware? I can argue both ways.
I know what makes sense to me, but I also know my opinion isn't worth much. Hopefully this'll all get nicely cleared up soon enough.
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Good question, since it effects all tests boosted by Magic. A drain test isn't boosted by Magic normally. Unless you use Centering, or boost your drain with magical means. However, it's also possible that as a magic-related test it's also penalized.
Taking drain is not a skill test, it's a damage resistance test. Since you are not making a skill roll you are not loosing any dice to resist drain.
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But neither is Initiative, and you still suffer from Background Count there. Note that it doesn't say any skill test, it says any test that is boosted by Magic.
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Got another one, sorry. -_-
Upgrading your grid: I assume this will be covered by a future Matrix book, but is there any temporary cost available? Or is the only way for Riggers to not take a -2 on all their rigging actions to buy a Middle Lifestyle?
(Alternatively, an RCC MAY be able to get a Sleaze value of 3 with Exploit+Stealth when it comes to Gridhopping, so the rigger could do Hacking+Logic-2[3] vs 4 dice, 1/9 auto-fail chance.)
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So...another background count question. In older editions centering could be used to counter penalties to your rolls. In the 5th edition it seems to only work to help with drain. Is there any way to help with background count penalties, I figure if Season 5 is going to be all about Chicago it might be good to know.
Unless it has been and I have missed it somewhere.
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In SR4, Centering boosted your Drain Resistance, whereas Adept Centering let you counter penalties. Those are the same in SR5. In SR4, Street Magic introduced Cleansing to temporarily reduce the background count.
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Aha that must be what I was thinking, I usually play adepts :)
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There's a pretty heated 'discussion' going on right now about one of the Mystic Adepts Hot Patch Errata entries, that we'd like clarification on. It was asked about in August, but no reply has been given yet.
At character creation, adepts receive Power Points equal to their Magic attribute, while mystic adepts have to buy Power Points with Karma. Subsequently, Power Points can come in two ways. You get a free Power Point whenever you increase your Magic attribute, and you can gain a Power Point through Initiation (p. 324) instead of gaining a metamagic.
- Power Points cost 5 Karma per point instead of 2 Karma per point, and may be purchased up to your starting magic rating.
- Power Points are lost as normal along with Magic Rating if you lose points of Essence.
- You do not get a Power Point automatically when you raise your Magic Rating.
- You may gain additional Power Points by choosing to take a point during Initiation instead of a metamagic ability.
What we disagree on is the bolded part in the hot patch errata:
- Is it in addition to the normal chargen rules (meaning you can still only buy Power Points with Karma at chargen)?
So if, for example, you start with 6 Magic but only buy 4 Power Points at chargen, you cannot later buy 2 more Power Points with Karma? - Or does it override the normal chargen rules (meaning that if you start with X Magic fresh out of chargen, at any point, even post-chargen, you can buy Power Points for 5 Karma, as long as the total of your Karma-bought Power Points doesn't exceed your starting Magic)?
So if, for example, you start with 6 Magic but only buy 4 Power Points at chargen, you can later buy 2 more Power Points with Karma?
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My understanding is that once CharGen completes your opportunity to make CharGen "purchases" is done. If you do not take advantage of the cheap assets during CharGen you have lost the chance at them. So no, you cannot later buy two more Power Points at 5 Karma per after the fact. The only opportunity for additional PP is via Initiation.
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My understanding is that once CharGen completes your opportunity to make CharGen "purchases" is done. If you do not take advantage of the cheap assets during CharGen you have lost the chance at them. So no, you cannot later buy two more Power Points at 5 Karma per after the fact. The only opportunity for additional PP is via Initiation.
I believe this is correct, for the time being. The official FAQ/Errata when it comes out should cover this in more detail.
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It is also supported by the German edition, which has implemented the HotPatch and a few more, and states Adepts can get PP in two ways and Mystic Adepts in one way during the game itself, namely Magic+Initiation vs Initiation.
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Yeah. I sorta lump Bio and Cyber together. But yeah, can't get used Cultured, since that's tied too heavily to your DNA. :)
What if I have an identical twin? :P
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Unfortunately, the Negative Quality Evil Twin is not allowed in Missions.
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Bull will there be any revised rules for Gencon this year? I'll be helping my players prep their characters shortly but if there are going to be imminent changes, I would prefer to postpone.
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Nope. Just this and the official Errata. It doesn't look like Run & Gun will be Missions Legal by Gen Con, and I haven't seen anything particularly aggravating in anything else yet.
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Nope. Just this and the official Errata. It doesn't look like Run & Gun will be Missions Legal by Gen Con, and I haven't seen anything particularly aggravating in anything else yet.
Thanks. Moot point since we're no longer in the same events and Shadowrun was sold out before we got a chance to get into more than a couple. My players are in the tourney but I didn't get tickets for that. And conversely, they failed to get into the Missions that I got into.
I assume as long as your character is less than 250 Karma, you can keep using them? I feel less of a need to build a new character now lol
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Nope. Any character that you've played previous to Season 5 can't be used for anything other than being converted per the FAQ and played in the Scramble. For any Missions module, you have to have a new Season 5 character created using the SR5 rules.
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Also, show up for any Missions event you want with Generic Tickets. The GM corp will do their best to fit you in, and will have extra GMs on hand to handle overflow.
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Nope. Just this and the official Errata. It doesn't look like Run & Gun will be Missions Legal by Gen Con, and I haven't seen anything particularly aggravating in anything else yet.
Aw, I figured the negative quality from the Primer, Consummate Professional, would be banned, since it's a positive quality in disguise. And there's also the Rainforest Carbine from Gun Haven that one of my players refused to take unless he was allowed to use it at weaker stats, because he felt like he was abusing the fact it hasn't been errata'd.
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Nope. Just this and the official Errata. It doesn't look like Run & Gun will be Missions Legal by Gen Con, and I haven't seen anything particularly aggravating in anything else yet.
Aw, I figured the negative quality from the Primer, Consummate Professional, would be banned, since it's a positive quality in disguise. And there's also the Rainforest Carbine from Gun Haven that one of my players refused to take unless he was allowed to use it at weaker stats, because he felt like he was abusing the fact it hasn't been errata'd.
I've always assumed that Assassin's Primer qualities fell under Code of Honor and were thus banned. They are described as expanded Code of Honor rules. That said, they are also called Assassin's Creed qualities so maybe Assassin's Creed != Code of Honor though I find that argument weak.