Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: FastJack on <12-13-10/1855:13>
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Who needs it?
I do! (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=86596&filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=2216)
That's right, mageboys and razorgirls, the latest Shadowrun sourcebook has hit the shelves at DriveThruRPG.com (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=86596&filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=2216) and BattleCorps (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_187_85&products_id=2642). For just $18 you too can go back into the hell of Bogotá, Marienbad Council, Free Republic of Poland (HEY, Kot!!!), Somalia, Nepal and Albuquerque. Add in Mercenaries info for MET2000, Tsunami, 10,000 Daggers and Combat, Inc. and you have the mixin's for a fun time tonight.
So, what are you waiting for?
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WAR!
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Albuquerque?
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Yes, Albuquerque.
Not a war in the traditional sense, but a corp war nonetheless. They're calling it "Chess for Keeps". All about who has the hottest new tech and who's stealing it.
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So FJ< are you our official "New product cheerleader"? :)
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So FJ< are you our official "New product cheerleader"? :)
Yep. Been that ever since I got my Ka∙Ge bandanna back in the early '90s. ;D
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Hah, nice :)
Hrmm, we should get you some pom poms, and start sending you out to advertise for stuff on other message boards :) I could use an Official Missions Cheerleader ;) (And Missions could use the support. I dream of a day when the phrase "What's Missions?" is no longer uttered :))
Bull
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OMG! Like I soooooo want a Ka-Ge Bandanna!!! Maybe make one out of an old issue...if I can find two copies of same issue.
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OMG! Like I soooooo want a Ka-Ge Bandanna!!! Maybe make one out of an old issue...if I can find two copies of same issue.
I find out you destroyed 2 copys of Ka*Ge when I got none I might need to find you and destroy you! :o
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Any info on Poland will be priceless. And all those milspec rules and goodies would come in handy. And a war-themed rulebook would rock, especially if they cover any corporate shadow wars (on a small scale, small elite squads with shadowrunner support and/or decoys).
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Question:
Will there be more adventures to follow the developments in War?
Seems that the war has reached a stalemate/rest phase for both sides. but the Aztlan might attempt a new offensive.
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No word on whether there will be any Adventure/Campaign books to follow. Perhaps Mr. Hardy could stop by and post some speculative ideas?
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Hey Monky:
Cluster Grenades, Gecko Grenades and Monofilament Grenades. Page 157.
And for those of high ambition:
| Satellite Weapons | Damage | AP | Blast | Availability | Cost |
| Thor Missile | 30P + special | — | –5/100m | 45F | 1,200,000¥ |
Thor Missile: The Thor missile is a non-nuclear strategic weapon. It is a tungsten pole twelve meters long and about half a meter in diameter, with ns on one end and a point at the other. It strikes with the force of a one-kiloton ssion bomb, without the ensuing radiation. When it strikes, anything within 200 meters of the strike is destroyed, blasted to powder by the energy of the blast. Anything outside of this range suffers blast damage of 30P, –5 per 100 meters from the center of the blast (so the most a character could take without turning to a thin red mist is 20P at 201 to 299 meters).
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Sticky grenades? That's a good one. And they have the THOR a bit underpowered. They forgot the shockwave, heat wave, and returning shock wave. If i'm not mixing something up.
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Must. Get. War. Need. New. Grenades.
Heehee.
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Sticky grenades? That's a good one. And they have the THOR a bit underpowered. They forgot the shockwave, heat wave, and returning shock wave. If i'm not mixing something up.
Everything within 200 meters of the strike is automatically destroyed is underpowered?
Think of it this way, for you to witness a Thor strike and have no chance of being effected by it, you have to be 800 meters (or almost half a mile) away.
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You'd probably have to be further away than even that to have no chance of being affected. Shrapnel and blast debris can fly a long, long way from the explosion.
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That's my point exactly. That kind of mass falling almost unburned, and with it's shape powering up the effect (by adding velocity, and impact energy). I'm okay with that 200m. I'd just rule something like 'burn edge to survive' up to 400m.
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Then up to 600m is the "You'll wish you had died" zone.
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No word on whether there will be any Adventure/Campaign books to follow. Perhaps Mr. Hardy could stop by and post some speculative ideas?
No ETA on when we'll get these released on PDF (hopefully soonish), but one of the Convention Missions that was run at Gen Con and Dragon*Con this year takes place in Bogota. Doesn't really foillow up the storyline, but it does tie in a little. :) The adventure is CMP 2010-08 "Stormcrow Undone".
Bull
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OMG! Like I soooooo want a Ka-Ge Bandanna!!! Maybe make one out of an old issue...if I can find two copies of same issue.
I find out you destroyed 2 copys of Ka*Ge when I got none I might need to find you and destroy you! :o
Arrrg! I so wanted to make you try to hunt me, Casazil. :( But it turns out I had only thought I had any Ka-Ge issues when instead I only have Shadowland issues. :( And only single copies of those. :( And not the issue that had the fiction I wrote. :( But that's because it folded before it got to print. :( Which probably happened because I use to many emoticons. :( And that makes me sad. :(
But War! :) Mmmm. Yes is good.
Hey, with a 1,200,000¥ price tag on a Thor...I'm assuming that doesn't include the cost to get it into orbit (either as ballistic missile or on a sat)? Though even without something to launch it from it's a damn formidable paperweight :)
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BOOYA!! THOR SHOTS!! 8) 8) 8)
I have all the Shadowlands that got printed too.
As for the thor damage area it sounds good I maen in Rifts if you stand 51 feet away from a nuke you live ;D
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Heh...
Damage Code for the smallest feasible [i.e. suitcase nuke] nuclear device would be over 130P, –6/m.
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Standing anywhere near even a teeny tiny nuke would definitely fall under my instant death umbrella.
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Great, as if I didnt ALREADY have enough to buy...any word on release for Dead Tree Format yet?
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Great, as if I didnt ALREADY have enough to buy...any word on release for Dead Tree Format yet?
No date listed on the SR site nor BattleCorps, but it is a pre-order for the book.
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Great, as if I didnt ALREADY have enough to buy...any word on release for Dead Tree Format yet?
No date listed on the SR site nor BattleCorps, but it is a pre-order for the book.
Mebbie Santa will have some leftover 'yen in his sack for me...
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Well, my wallet might get a bit lighter before then. The BT crew just released four PDFs too...
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Tell me about it, I've had some XTROs in my sights for some time, along with some field guides and some dead tree reading material (yeah TRO3085 and Jihad HotSpots: Terra, Im talking to YOU!!).
I end up splitting a lot of time between the BT and SR forums, and sometimes it gets tough to choose.
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Oh, Hotspots: Terra is DEFINITELY worth it.
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I end up splitting a lot of time between the BT and SR forums, and sometimes it gets tough to choose.
When in doubt, choose both!
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*looks at the two open windows on his screen*
Yep..yep.
;D
Oh, Hotspots: Terra is DEFINITELY worth it.
Oh yes, yes it does...
My best friend and fellow 'Tech-ie (and who is single and with more disposable income!) has it. Scanned through it. As a Clan Snow Raven fan, the section on the Titan Shipyard battle had me feeling all sorts of geeky-warm fuzzies. Nice to see they...and the Ghost Bears *grin* could show the rest of the clans how 31st century black navy warfare was DONE. And my group have been playing Tech for the past few weeks.
Now, with the coming of WAR, I may finally have the means to bring the rest of this destructive bunch of malcontents into the Shadows....MUHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!
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about War! I like it. The shadow talkers are a bit off,but art is great and Echo's cover is sweet.IMO. my favorite tidbit is the Makwa Miskozi. I am soo running a rigging Grizzly Adams character next time we play....Biodrone fraggin grizzly bear FTW...*grin*
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about War! I like it. The shadow talkers are a bit off,but art is great and Echo's cover is sweet.IMO. my favorite tidbit is the Makwa Miskozi. I am soo running a rigging Grizzly Adams character next time we play....Biodrone fraggin grizzly bear FTW...*grin*
Wait a tic...biodrone grizzly bear? Whisky Tango Foxtrot, did I hear that correct and does it mean what I THINK it means?
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;D yeah,
IC,introducing Haggerty,ork rigger.sitting outside a Mchugh's (tm) munching a pile of Big Mike's(tm) burgers:"Me an' Boo-boo been runnin' togeather 'bout a year. Met up in injin' country way up north. I was movin' sugar in a t-bird and got tagged comin' cross the Yukon and caught a missle . Woke up with ol' Boo-boo draggin' me out of the river and though I was gonna end up bear scat. but then he dropped me and just stared at me with those whirly lectric eyes. Seemed to me he just needed a friend, so I just held out my hand and Zap! we had a connection,kinda like a shamantic thing, ya,know? He's helped me lots. Only complaint is he eats like a,well, bear."
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http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=18965
More details, for example about which seem to be the better essays, at http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=180641#180641
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Why is it everywhere I go I see this franktrollman guy talkin trash about shadowrun? The dude writes reviews on amazon and all kinds of places. All taking major trash about various SR products. His reviews aren't objective in the slightest and tend to point out the most trivial of things.
What's his deal?
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Why is it everywhere I go I see this franktrollman guy talkin trash about shadowrun? The dude writes reviews on amazon and all kinds of places. All taking major trash about various SR products. His reviews aren't objective in the slightest and tend to point out the most trivial of things.
What's his deal?
He used to work for them. He doesn't any more.
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Why is it everywhere I go I see this franktrollman guy talkin trash about shadowrun? The dude writes reviews on amazon and all kinds of places. All taking major trash about various SR products. His reviews aren't objective in the slightest and tend to point out the most trivial of things.
What's his deal?
Welcome to our reality: where anyone is free to spout off about anything, anywhere, anytime with as much venom as one wants and in many cases with as little facts as possible.
Me, as always, I will hold all my comments about content of ANY product until I have one of my own. That means, Ill have to sponge off everyone else. Unfortunately, I won't likely be getting to my copy of WAR! ('e-tron or dead tree format) anytime soon...A PDF dosen't make a good diaper for my daughter(despite some opinions to the contrary!).
Although, she does like sitting on Daddy's lap when he is reading his SR books....hmmmm.
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My thoughts on War!
This book, while good in general, leaves me with mixed feelings.
While some of the fluff and crunch is great and the gear is awesome. (Write-ups of orbital weapons, holy shit!) It tends to lack a real focus. The book starts out describing Bogota without much warning. And to be honest the long write-up is rather boring and doesn't give too much deep information or secrets.
After that it explains a little more about the various factions and throws out little plot hooks here and there. After reading the entire Bogota adventure section I'm disapointed not to find one map (not one?!) of the entire area. Also where's more info on the Azzies army, or the other forces? What kind of crazy paracritters and blood mages make up those platoons?
Also the entire Bogota section really doesn't give much of a purpose to why they're even at war. Or why even wage war in that area of South America? It's nowhere near strategic for the Azzies to be overextending like that into hostile territory.
The Bogota stuff aside (which makes up a good portion of the book), it's not all bad. I liked the write-ups on the other global hotpots. Though the way the adventure hooks are mixed in the with the fluff makes me cringe. And adding in some more actual heavy war zones would have been cool. (Albuquerque? Really?)
The leadership rules and large dice pool rules are pretty neat. And I love the composure tests for traumatic combat.
All in all it's a good book. It just lacks focus. It tends to be way too general while droning on with details, without actually giving enough meaningful information. And really misses at carving a deep meaningful story to tell within all of the mess.
(And where's the maps, man? The maps?!) [/rant]
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Why is it everywhere I go I see this franktrollman guy talkin trash about shadowrun? The dude writes reviews on amazon and all kinds of places. All taking major trash about various SR products. His reviews aren't objective in the slightest and tend to point out the most trivial of things.
What's his deal?
He used to work for them. He doesn't any more.
That is to put it mildly...
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Also the entire Bogota section really doesn't give much of a purpose to why they're even at war. Or why even wage war in that area of South America? It's nowhere near strategic for the Azzies to be overextending like that into hostile territory.
Hello, everyone. My name is Mike Wich. I am one of the authors for War! and just wanted to step in here and respond to The Laughing Man, and maybe clarify the reasons for the war. A lot of the explanation for this war is contained in the section of "Bogota History," which I wrote (along with Bogota Culture, the vast majority of Bogota Neighborhoods and half of the Mercenary section).
It is important to understand that Aztlan and Amazonia hate each other. It is a hatred that sometimes blinds them to practicalities (ie, modern day North and South Korea). This hatred has been brewing since official hostilities ended toward 2050. Since that time, both sides have been fighting proxy wars against one another, using whatever resources they had available to them (ie, the population of Bogota). There were several times that all-out war *could* have been declared, but other emergencies and other priorities kept getting in the way (YoTC, Crash 2.0, etc). In those proxy wars, both sides were doing things that were rapidly escalating the tensions.
Spoilers Ahead:
[Spoilers] Aztlan was intentionally seeding the forest with Diablos, to prevent Amazonia from invading and conquering Bogota. Bogota is a prize for them, and no nation really wants to lose territory and resources to anyone, especially to a hated enemy. And there was a real (or perceived) threat of that happening during and after the Year of the Comet, when their military forces were spread so thin. Amazonia despised having their forest altered so radically, and so they fiercely retaliated, and violence rained down on the streets of Bogota. There was a tit-for-tat response going on in that regard between 2062 and 2073. The way the violence was being waged, all out war was all but inevitable. The two attempted diplomacy, and an agreement was even signed, but Amazonia really failed to live up to its side of the bargin in failing to effectively police its own guerrilla cells. I attempted to try and show that both sides were really guility of the hostilities that were happening down there, and that both sides had blood on their hands. I find that it is better drama when both sides contribute to the start of a war. Many people think Aztlan is the bad guy in this, where it should be understood that both contributed to the current climate, with Aztlan being a little bit more responsible for it by intentionally misleading Amazonia into attacking their lab and giving them a valid reason for a full-out war. Strategically speaking, it is also in Aztlan's best interests to find a way of stopping this violence. All this violence is costing them *A LOT* of nuyen. And diplomacy wasn't working. And so, when the diplomats fail.... [/Spoilers]
I hope I have helped to clarify the reasons for the war. And I hope that despite various concerns with War!, this is a product that many fans can still enjoy and use for their gaming groups.
Any way, That's about it for me. Seasons greetings and happy holidays to everyone here on the forums!
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That was a great post Mike and I have to say your sections were among my favorites in the book. Thanks for taking some of your time to help address the questions some people had.
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[Spoilers] Aztlan was intentionally seeding the forest with Diablos, to prevent Amazonia from invading and conquering Bogota. Bogota is a prize for them, and no nation really wants to lose territory and resources to anyone, especially to a hated enemy. And there was a real (or perceived) threat of that happening during and after the Year of the Comet, when their military forces were spread so thin. Amazonia despised having their forest altered so radically, and so they fiercely retaliated, and violence rained down on the streets of Bogota. There was a tit-for-tat response going on in that regard between 2062 and 2073. The way the violence was being waged, all out war was all but inevitable. The two attempted diplomacy, and an agreement was even signed, but Amazonia really failed to live up to its side of the bargin in failing to effectively police its own guerrilla cells. I attempted to try and show that both sides were really guility of the hostilities that were happening down there, and that both sides had blood on their hands. I find that it is better drama when both sides contribute to the start of a war. Many people think Aztlan is the bad guy in this, where it should be understood that both contributed to the current climate, with Aztlan being a little bit more responsible for it by intentionally misleading Amazonia into attacking their lab and giving them a valid reason for a full-out war. Strategically speaking, it is also in Aztlan's best interests to find a way of stopping this violence. All this violence is costing them *A LOT* of nuyen. And diplomacy wasn't working. And so, when the diplomats fail.... [/spoilers]
That is an excellent condensed bit of backstory. Did it make it to a good sidebar somewhere in the book? I'm waiting for the dead-trees version myself.
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First you posted:
Why is it everywhere I go I see this franktrollman guy talkin trash about shadowrun? The dude writes reviews on amazon and all kinds of places. All taking major trash about various SR products. His reviews aren't objective in the slightest and tend to point out the most trivial of things.
What's his deal?
Then you posted:
My thoughts on War!
This book, while good in general, leaves me with mixed feelings.
While some of the fluff and crunch is great and the gear is awesome. (Write-ups of orbital weapons, holy shit!) It tends to lack a real focus. The book starts out describing Bogota without much warning. And to be honest the long write-up is rather boring and doesn't give too much deep information or secrets.
After that it explains a little more about the various factions and throws out little plot hooks here and there. After reading the entire Bogota adventure section I'm disapointed not to find one map (not one?!) of the entire area. Also where's more info on the Azzies army, or the other forces? What kind of crazy paracritters and blood mages make up those platoons?
Also the entire Bogota section really doesn't give much of a purpose to why they're even at war. Or why even wage war in that area of South America? It's nowhere near strategic for the Azzies to be overextending like that into hostile territory.
The Bogota stuff aside (which makes up a good portion of the book), it's not all bad. I liked the write-ups on the other global hotpots. Though the way the adventure hooks are mixed in the with the fluff makes me cringe. And adding in some more actual heavy war zones would have been cool. (Albuquerque? Really?)
The leadership rules and large dice pool rules are pretty neat. And I love the composure tests for traumatic combat.
All in all it's a good book. It just lacks focus. It tends to be way too general while droning on with details, without actually giving enough meaningful information. And really misses at carving a deep meaningful story to tell within all of the mess.
(And where's the maps, man? The maps?!) [/rant]
So, do you realize that your review is basically a more succinct and less humorously written version of Frank Trollman's review but with a different conclusion? I mean, you are covering pretty much the same points, both positive and negative, he brings up; though in your defense he does fixate on some art issues that seem kind of trivial. It is evident that there are multiple biases at work here since you can find most of the same flaws as Mr. Trollman but conclude it is still a "good book" while Mr. Trollman concludes it is most definitely "not a good book."
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To MikeW: Thanks for the reply Mike. And for clearing that bit of story up. It's good to know you guys are listening. It's a good book and I'm sure alot of GM's and players will find it useful despite what some of the trolls say. I guess when it comes down to it I'm thinking too much in terms of logic and reasoning when it comes to war, when wars are often based on hate and greed more than logic. And the Azzies have more than enough of both. Too me it seems impractical, but so does blood magic.
To Semerkhet: I'm sorry if my writing isn't up to your taste. I was trying to give a review that fans could find useful that wasn't full of personal attacks on the writers while pointing out trivial bullshit. Did you stop to think maybe the biases are franktrollmans? We may have had some similiar points, but while I was commenting on the writing he spent most of his review attacking the writers and criticizing the editors. I actually like this book, I just think it has some flaws that needed to be addressed.
Please don't compare me to trolls.
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To Semerkhet: I'm sorry if my writing isn't up to your taste. I was trying to give a review that fans could find useful that wasn't full of personal attacks on the writers while pointing out trivial bullshit. Did you stop to think maybe the biases are franktrollmans? We may have had some similiar points, but while I was commenting on the writing he spent most of his review attacking the writers and criticizing the editors. I actually like this book, I just think it has some flaws that needed to be addressed.
Please don't compare me to trolls.
Please do not read a personal attack where there was none. I didn't say that your review wasn't useful and I thought I made abundantly clear that there are biases on all sides. Nevertheless, you seem to have read a personal attack into my post when my intent was to show you that you and Frank Trollman found most of the same problems with the book but reached different conclusions. Sure, Frank's review is full of vitriol and personal attacks but that doesn't mean that parts of it can't be spot on. I would hope that people could look at Frank's writing and dispassionately separate the useful bits from the ranting. Also, thank you for your review which did not include ranting and personal attacks.
Edited for more concise conclusion:
My main point is that by comparing reviews with different biases to find commonalities, I can narrow the error bars for that elusive point on the line we call truth.
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Both miscommunications offset, both parties are apologetic. We can continue with discussion on the material covered in War! and forget about errata or politics regarding CGL books.
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Guess I did jump to conclusions a bit there, my bad. ;D That Franktrollman guy just rubs me the wrong way. With his heavily biased reviews and how he releases "leaks" and all that with no intention but only to further his own pre-conceived notions of CGL. When someone said my review was similiar I took it the wrong way. But Jack's right I'll get back on subject.
We finally got rules for something similiar to power armor and exoskeletons in the equipment section! 8)
I'm itching for that Milspec book after looking at the EQ from War!. Anyone know when it comes out?
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Speaking of gear and such I am in a bind. I have zero, nada, zilch interest in Bogota for my current campaign. Yet it seems as though there is a fairly sizable chunk of crunch in the book; weapons, gear, spells, adept powers, expanded Leadership rules, new grenade rules. All of that is something I'd like to take a look at but I am peeved that I am being asked to purchase a setting book I have no interest in so that I can get access to rules and gear. Any chance the crunch will be separated into its own stand-alone pdf?
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Generally, they don't separate out the Gear/Rules section out from the book, so you're probably out of luck. Now, they may publish a PDF-only update to the Gear tables in Augmentation to show all the gear available and where to find it, if we ask kindly... ;)
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That's what Post-It notes are for.
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spells, adept powers,
There are a bunch of cool gear and some nice new rules, but there really aren't any good spells(and one that need to be ban hammered to lowest levels of underworld) and the value of the 2 adept powers and 3 technomancer echoes is highly depatable.
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Hello, everyone. My name is Mike Wich. I am one of the authors for War! and just wanted to step in here and respond to The Laughing Man, and maybe clarify the reasons for the war. A lot of the explanation for this war is contained in the section of "Bogota History," which I wrote (along with Bogota Culture, the vast majority of Bogota Neighborhoods and half of the Mercenary section).
Hello Mike.
[Spoilers] Aztlan was intentionally seeding the forest with Diablos, to prevent Amazonia from invading and conquering Bogota. Bogota is a prize for them, and no nation really wants to lose territory and resources to anyone, especially to a hated enemy. And there was a real (or perceived) threat of that happening during and after the Year of the Comet, when their military forces were spread so thin. Amazonia despised having their forest altered so radically, and so they fiercely retaliated, and violence rained down on the streets of Bogota. There was a tit-for-tat response going on in that regard between 2062 and 2073. The way the violence was being waged, all out war was all but inevitable. The two attempted diplomacy, and an agreement was even signed, but Amazonia really failed to live up to its side of the bargin in failing to effectively police its own guerrilla cells. I attempted to try and show that both sides were really guility of the hostilities that were happening down there, and that both sides had blood on their hands. I find that it is better drama when both sides contribute to the start of a war. Many people think Aztlan is the bad guy in this, where it should be understood that both contributed to the current climate, with Aztlan being a little bit more responsible for it by intentionally misleading Amazonia into attacking their lab and giving them a valid reason for a full-out war. Strategically speaking, it is also in Aztlan's best interests to find a way of stopping this violence. All this violence is costing them *A LOT* of nuyen. And diplomacy wasn't working. And so, when the diplomats fail.... [/Spoilers]
I've been arguing about the trees thing for a long time, so let me just restate my opinion: the entire trees plot is stupid and nonsensical. Amazon hates people and loves trees. Aztlan has been smuggling shit into and out of Amazonia and cutting trees down, that's a large part of the reason (Great Dragons aside) the nations hate each other. Aztlan planting man-eating trees on its borders would be a good thing as far as Amazonia is concerned. Planting man-eating trees on the border is something Amazonia would do themselves to keep the Azzies out. These trees - only discovered in 2062 - take years to grow. Because they're trees. Even if Aztlan invaded Amazonia and stole hundreds of dangerous magical saplings, the trees they planted would only be about 13 years old. There's not even any jungle around Bogota, the city's in the fucking mountains.
And there's no reason for Amazonia to give a fig about Bogota except for the fact that Aztlan is there. It's pisshole #1 in Old Colombia. That's it. Amazonia doesn't need it; the barrios of Metropole have a higher population than all of old Colombia put together.
I realize this is just you trying to shed some light Mike, and I know the plot didn't originate with you...but it's a bad plot. Really bad. Ridiculously silly. There have been wars started over football games and dogs that were less retarded than the trees plot. If you want to defend your writing, fine. Don't defend the plot.
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Yeah, the trees plot never made that much sense. Even if it was the straw that broke the camel's back, you can only blame so much nonsense in the channel on the fog of war.
Time was when the plot event would be announced, then we'd get a write up from Fastjack or (back in the day) Capt. Chaos. They'd introduce you to a situational expert, explain their reason for speaking and in broad strokes what was on the line as it applies to Shadowrunners. Then our guide would lay out the specifics, usually starting with a bit of propaganda lifted from the official source, before they shredded into it and told you the delicious truth you knew was there.
When you got done you knew the blow by blow. You knew the big capping events that went back for years and the players that maneuvered things into place. From a gaming perspective you could take it or leave it for your game; but as the next plot book was written, or the next, you knew the bulk of the understanding as those who make it their business to know understand it. And you expected that the next book would build on that understanding (and the details that were obfuscated) to frame the next event or take the metaplot to the next level.
I'm not getting that for War!, though. It's sort of like the Bogota source book with some tacked on details about why there is a war going on. Then some 40 pages of Fields of Fire sounding stuff and about 30 pages of crunch. But it sounds like the writers aren't getting into that much setting detail about the war, and I hope that's not the case. I hope they have for whatever reason decided not to share the particulars for now. But when I look at the quality of the proofing and the world building I question that hope. It is pretty sloppy when they don't even include a map. I mean, I hope there was a map provided in the research notes that were collected by the staff. Otherwise how can you expect internal consistency from anything they've written? We might as well write down the proceedings of a few weeks table games and call it world building.
Bitching about a map in a book called War! can sound like getting a new car and bitching about a missing drink holder. Who cares? But this is a book less about war than about a war. And I expect that the products being put out by CGL will be held to highest standards of quality, or else they will be held from publishing until they are ready to be sold. That means the writers planned out the proceedings of a war at some point, and have used a map to do so. At least, it should. You need to know more than "Aztlan up and that way, Amazonia down and that way, Bogota in the middle". That means that the staff think this book is ready to go without a map or details of the specific units fighting on both sides.
As a GM I can find a map, and plan out some maneuvers around the area. I can write up some unit details and come up with some paracritters and milspec blood magic to throw at each other while my players try to work the shadows between the fox holes. But I'm not being paid to write a book called War!. And I'm expected instead to pay for one that doesn't even bother to include a map; but tells me everything I need to know about Bogota, how much damage a nuke does and suggests it might be fun to go shoot the ghosts of Jewish concentrations camp victims so I can plunder Auschwitz.
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I don't post a lot. And I'm deliberately trying to stay as much out of the fruckus about War as possible. As I writer, I'm just going to say that I know that I did my best with my writing. I put things in there I thought were awesome ideas, and things that I thought I would enjoy putting into my home game. I know not everyone will have campaigns in this particular region, and I know not everyone will like the plotlines that I developed. But I want to assure everyone that I do love Shadowrun, I have played Shadowrun for over eight years now, and am a freelancer because I love the line. Some people may choose not to believe that, but that is their choice. In the end, I acknowledge there were a lot of missed opportunities with War, but that when the print product of War! comes out, I will be proud to add it to the rest of my books, and will be proud to say I contributed to it.
What I'm going to focus on for the next project (because I'm going to keep on writing) is to be more attentive to grammar, be more methodical in putting out the best writing that I can, and will be committed to help Catalyst put out the best possible product that it can. I have heard from the fans that grammar and the typos are a problem, and I will do what I can to make sure that they don't happen in my sections the next time around.
And Bobby, there's not point in me trying to argue with you. You've made up your mind on everything, and nothing I can ever say will change that. And I will not get pulled into having a public war of words with you. I don't need that. So I'm just going to acknowledge that I've read people's comments here, I'll do my best to improve things for next time, and we'll go from there.
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in the end it shows that different people play SR for different reasons, and trying to please them all with every book will be like pushing water up hill using only ones hands...
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I don't have to like the plotline in War. I'm not really worried if I do or not, as I won't really being using Bogota. As a personal taste thing, I would have probably been a little happier to have Bogota take up less space, and see some more information on additional hotspots around the globe. The issue that just really bugged me as a fan was the issues with editing and proofing. Lack of an introduction and the way the main point of your book isn't mentioned until several pages in the Bogota section...that looked really amateurish. Address that issue and other similar editing issues found in WAR!, clean that up for future books (and yeah, along with the grammar), and then I'll worry more about whether I want to complain about the storyline or not. :)
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I don't understand how anyone could think the Freelancers aren't fans. Why would you write for a product you care nothing about, is the money really that good? I think like others have said the problem lies in the editing and proofreading, and other people are just taking this opportunity to make baseless attacks against the freelancers themselves. I have no doubt CGL can get back to producing products of the quality we've become accustomed to, and we should use our criticism to productively address the issues rather than making assumptions about the freelancers.
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I don't post a lot. And I'm deliberately trying to stay as much out of the fruckus about War as possible. As I writer, I'm just going to say that I know that I did my best with my writing.
Not for nothing Mike, but I don't care. Really, I haven't said anything good or bad about your writing. It's a non-issue with me. No one even brought it up before you did. This is not about your writing. It's about the stupid bloody plot which I know you did not create. That's all I'm bitching about, man.
And Bobby, there's not point in me trying to argue with you. You've made up your mind on everything, and nothing I can ever say will change that. And I will not get pulled into having a public war of words with you. I don't need that. So I'm just going to acknowledge that I've read people's comments here, I'll do my best to improve things for next time, and we'll go from there.
Really, dude, I'm not here to argue with you. I just want to be clear how much I hate this particular storyline. Nothing to do with you.
Why would you write for a product you care nothing about, is the money really that good?
No, the money is shit. Really. 3-3.5 cents a word is average. Devs might get 4.5-6 cents a word. However, if you're freelancing professionally, like David Hill and Filamena Young, and it's what you do for a living, then you take all the work you can handle that comes your way. You get enough wordcount, you get enough rates, it adds up. I'm not saying they're not fans or don't care, because I don't know them that well, but yes there are freelancers that write for products they care nothing about.
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Not for nothing Mike, but I don't care. Really, I haven't said anything good or bad about your writing. It's a non-issue with me. No one even brought it up before you did. This is not about your writing. It's about the stupid bloody plot which I know you did not create. That's all I'm bitching about, man.
There are those that like the plot, though. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it worthless.
(And I'm not saying I like/dislike the plot. I've been a Harlequin/Ehran/Frosty fanboy since the first book, so I'm partial to stories involving them.)
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Not for nothing Mike, but I don't care. Really, I haven't said anything good or bad about your writing. It's a non-issue with me. No one even brought it up before you did. This is not about your writing. It's about the stupid bloody plot which I know you did not create. That's all I'm bitching about, man.
There are those that like the plot, though. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it worthless.
(And I'm not saying I like/dislike the plot. I've been a Harlequin/Ehran/Frosty fanboy since the first book, so I'm partial to stories involving them.)
I agree in principle that reasonable people have reasonably differing opinions on the worth of a given plotline. However I also think that there is no better place to complain about a plotline you do not like than on the forum for the game in question.
In this particular case I think AH is referring to the whole casus belli for the Amazon/Aztlan war and not about anything having to do with those wacky IEs.
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And I agree with you too, Semerkhet. There is no better place to complain about a SR plotline than here. I just thought I'd point out that not everyone agrees with AH on this particular subject. Just so, you know, if they didn't agree with him they didn't feel they couldn't post a disagreement on the subject. I had noticed that there were a number of quick "I agree with AH" type of posts after his statement and hoped to make the atmosphere more likely to keep people from not joining in because they weren't agreeing with the group.
And, yes, I *do* know he wasn't talking about the Immortal Elves. I just felt like saying that. :P
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I had noticed that there were a number of quick "I agree with AH" type of posts after his statement and hoped to make the atmosphere more likely to keep people from not joining in because they weren't agreeing with the group.
Que? What forum are you reading? Look at my post history. That does not happen. It has not happened. In this thread or any other. I posted once, Otakusensei posted once in agreement with my point, that was it. Mike Wich didn't even address my point at all, and neither did the two that followed it.
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*Starts pounding head on desk* Please let this end soon.
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I second that, Monky.
And i'll just note - a bit off topic - that a few people seem to be abusing the Rep system. I'm sure neither Ancient, nor FastJack didn't score that many negatives before War! came out.
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When did you became a global moderator FJ.
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Think the money's bad for regular freelancing, try doing Missions and the other eBooks. They pay a flat rate that's divorced from word count, and lets just say it almost always works out to be lower than the numbers Bobby posted. We really, REALLY do not do this for the money.
Bull
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When did you became a global moderator FJ.
About two weeks ago to help out with the Spamming and such.
Que? What forum are you reading? Look at my post history. That does not happen. It has not happened. In this thread or any other. I posted once, Otakusensei posted once in agreement with my point, that was it. Mike Wich didn't even address my point at all, and neither did the two that followed it.
There weren't a lot of "I agree" after your post, I was going off agreements I tended to see in other posts (here and at Dumpshock) on other subjects as well. I apologize for jumping the gun here.
As I said before I'm trying to keep the atmosphere neutral here so people feel they can post no matter their opinions and not feel like they have to keep quiet if they disagree.
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So...the fact that some people...people that may not even attend this forum or see this thread...may of their own free will agree with me somehow creates an unfair amount of social pressure that disenfranchises people that actually disagree with me to speak up? Your attempt at neutrality is to single me out on this thread in an obscure subforum to disagree with me just so people don't feel they're alone? I don't see you disagreeing with Critias or Crimsondude when they're pimping the products-yet-to-come. Are they somehow more neutral than I am?
The fuck man.
Tell you what, if you want to disagree with me, let me give you something to really disagree about.
The trees plot is stupid. That is not a matter of opinion. There is no rationalization in War! that in any way provides a believable reason for why this should be in any way a reason for Amazonia and Aztlan to go to war. Really, aside from the magical trees growing up out of nowhere, have you read the stats for these things? Between Year of the Comet and War! the trees have somehow gained the ability and desire to spew tree sap at things, and now contain a shitload of reagents. Not just a little, we're talking 15 reagents per tree. Screw Aztlan and Amazonia, I know runners in Seattle that would fly down to the border just to take a sapling home and feed it with homeless ork hobos. They wouldn't even care when the tree randomly jizzes sap on them. Sap which should be acidic, but whoever wrote the entry managed to leave out any sort of damage code. And, again: Amazonia hates people and loves trees. Also, Bogota is in the mountains. There is no jungle around Bogota. References to jungle around Bogota are retarded. p.87, The Real Urban Jungle, this is bullshit. Bogota's on the other side of the rain shield. No rain, no jungle. Nada.
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{sigh}
I'm out.
I was trying to keep it neutral because your fame precedes you. Heck, I love the stuff you've done for Shadowrun, especially Happy Trails. There's a lot of fans that take your opinions as something more than other fans. I only wanted to diffuse a possible situation and wound up creating one. So, my apologies, and I'll let it go on.
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Being unbiased is something this boards operators and conversations simply can not do. Admins can try to steer the message to their own approximation of unbiased communication, but that's not the same thing. The forum was setup and is owned and operated by CGL, the same people who currently make the game content we talk about here. The same people who left War! in the state it was published in. As Jason Hardy is a mod here, literally the same people in many cases. Add to that that it is an open forum, with rules, that allows anyone (who isn't banned) from posting here; and I'm kind of surprised that anyone is trying to make things here appear neutral.
So chill out, guy-who-decided-to-name-his-account-after-a-well-loved-setting-character-rather-than-make-a-name-for-himself. Admins can come in and try to steer the message, but that is disingenuous, and really just fulfills the same accusations people stated on Dumpshock prior to these forums going online. Bobby has a compelling message. Is he angry? Yup. Can he still be right? Yup. Is his opinion more important than anyone else's? Well, do the testimonies of experts hold up better in court than the guy off the street?
Edited: to take out some of the vitriol. Thanks you for posting Guy-who-calls-himself-Fastjack.
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And, thank you for making a personal attack. I'm not going to do anything besides lock this thread (which I created in the first place, and is a power than anyone that creates a thread has with the thread they created).
Like the other thread, I'll reopen it when I feel things have cooled down.
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I'm just now reading War, and I have to say, I agree with AH. The plotline seems contrived, to say the least; and the number of grammatical and typographic errors really makes it look like it's not worth the money. Maybe there are surprises deeper into the book, but the quick scan isn't promising. Do you think that the dgold in this book is deeply hidden, and if so, should it be that way?
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Well, after working through WAR! with my co-GM, we reached the conclusion that if you have military training and experience, you probably won't have any fun with this book.
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Well, after working through WAR! with my co-GM, we reached the conclusion that if you have military training and experience, you probably won't have any fun with this book.
...because the entire combat system of Shadowrun has always been a perfectly accurate simulation of a real life combat situation ??? ::)
What the hell man? What is it about War that has tweeked your nose in this particular fashion? Speaking as someone who has a closet full of board wargames and 1:72 scale Napoleonics I can appreciate the desire for an accurate simulation, but seriously, Shadowrun is not that. Never has been.
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Which is why I said "probably". Some might be able to look past their experiences and training and enjoy the game. Other's can't. That's it, pure and simple.
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Which is why I said "probably". Some might be able to look past their experiences and training and enjoy the game. Other's can't. That's it, pure and simple.
BUt the failure to have fun for those who can't is purely their fault, not fault of the book.
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Erm, no? A product has to target as many people as possible. So, if War! is good for some people, and others despise it, it's half of a failure. If it would be liked, and ignored fifty-fifty, then it wouldn't.
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Erm, no? A product has to target as many people as possible. So, if War! is good for some people, and others despise it, it's half of a failure. If it would be liked, and ignored fifty-fifty, then it wouldn't.
So you're saying that half of all Shadowrun players have combat experience "for realz?" And that that half have somehow managed to overlook all the unrealistic aspects of Shadowruns combat system up until the very point in time that High Powered ammo (or whatever it is that was included in War) was introduced? How is this even an argument? What are you trying to say? Christ on a pogo-stick, I'm in full agreement that War is far from the best Shadowrun book ever produced but this is just getting stupid.
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I'm not talking about realism and combat experience, as i have none. Products? Targets? That's marketing. I have enough experience with that crap.
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I'm not talking about realism and combat experience, as i have none. Products? Targets? That's marketing. I have enough experience with that crap.
Fair enough, but lets be honest with ourselves here. Shadowrun products have often targeted a small segment of the hobby. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of Shadowrun games never leave Seattle. For those GM's, what use is Feral Cities, Corp Enclaves, or even 2/3rds of Runner Havens. War is a book that is focused on a particular niche within the 6th world, a place that a tiny fraction of campaigns will ever use. In that respect at least it's no different than any other location book out there.
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That would be a good argument, if it was just 'I won't use this setting.' that was the issue. But I note that the larger part of what is making furor over War! is rules issues and the general production problems that have persisted in the line as a whole since 6WA.
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That would be a good argument, if it was just 'I won't use this setting.' that was the issue. But I note that the larger part of what is making furor over War! is rules issues and the general production problems that have persisted in the line as a whole since 6WA.
Yes, but that's actual problems in the product and has nothing to do with the comment "if you have military training and experience, you probably won't have any fun with this book" witch is fully a problem caused by the reader inability to ingnore his own RL knowledge of related stuff, honestly i can't even figure out what part of the book is that statement aimed at.
Thats pretty much same as saying "If you know anythink about computer and related stuff, you won't have any fun with unwired" and is pretty much just as wrong as a generalization.
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I'm a PhD student in Behavioral Neuroscience and despite nearly every cyberpunk product (Shadowrun included) getting all sorts of things wrong about how the brain and neurons in general work I still manage to enjoy them. Besides you can just GM house-rule away the things you find ridiculous.
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I don't believe in magic and actually find the entire idea retarded and absurd, yet I play a mage. :D
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Fair enough, but lets be honest with ourselves here. Shadowrun products have often targeted a small segment of the hobby. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of Shadowrun games never leave Seattle. For those GM's, what use is Feral Cities, Corp Enclaves, or even 2/3rds of Runner Havens. War is a book that is focused on a particular niche within the 6th world, a place that a tiny fraction of campaigns will ever use. In that respect at least it's no different than any other location book out there.
Wrong. :P
For my first game i chose TriCity just because that was an excuse to create it from scratch.
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Wrong. :P
For my first game i chose TriCity just because that was an excuse to create it from scratch.
So you're in the remaining ten percent.
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No matter WHAT RPG you may play, there always has to be a little "suspension of disbelief". The purpose of an RPG is to have fun within the confines of a particular universe or setting. I find that for the most part, too much realism does tend to be a big killjoy when it comes to games. While some revel in the detail of some settings, my friend Chuck for example loves Twilight 2000 because its basically modern warfare and is heavy into modern weapons. Others, just dont care and just want something cool.
As a peace officer and someone who has done a lot of work in private security, I still enjoy hearing about the (mis)adventures of the Lone Star/KE-types. Do I see glaring inaccuracies when it comes to things like due process, you betcha. Still like the game and I like to give the average RPG fan enough credit in that they KNOW that any RPG is an approximation, not recreation.
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As a peace officer and someone who has done a lot of work in private security, I still enjoy hearing about the (mis)adventures of the Lone Star/KE-types. Do I see glaring inaccuricies when it comes to things like due process, you betcha.
"due process" isn't exactly a word found in the Lone Star employees vocabulary 8)
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As a peace officer and someone who has done a lot of work in private security, I still enjoy hearing about the (mis)adventures of the Lone Star/KE-types. Do I see glaring inaccuricies when it comes to things like due process, you betcha.
"due process" isn't exactly a word found in the Lone Star employees vocabulary 8)
Sure it is! Their process is just a bit...different is all. ;D
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I'm thinking a troll adept with that Supernatural Toughness power from Digital Grimoire might be able to survive a 25P or 30P hit, depending.
Of course, none of his buddies are around to help stabilize him anymore. So, there's that.
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To me, I think the biggest issue with War! is: it doesn't fit into a nice, neat little niche.
I do like the book, don't get me wrong, but I can see why some people wouldn't.
One of the sort of hallmarks of 4th Edition until WAR! was: each book was a narrowly defined,
focused on one thing product. We have just setting information in Runner Havens, Corporate Enclaves,
and Feral Cities, we have just plot info in Emergence, we have just 'For use in your game' info in the
Core Books and Running Wild. These books are EASY to go "Well, this book does this. I can use it for my
campaign. I will buy it."
War!, however, breaks this trend. It is Setting Book with all the info on Bogota, it is plot book with the stuff
relating to war, it is rules book with the section of gear and expanded rules dealing with military/merc operations.
It cannot be neatly classified and defined. It does not fit into a neat little cubby-hole where someone can look at it
and go "I want to get this book for THIS." If you buy it for the gear, then alot of stuff in it is useless to you. If you buy
it for the stuff on Bogota, not caring about the war or the geat, a lot is useless to you. If you buy it for the plot info,
but do not plan to have your players as military, nor plan to set it in Bogota, alot of the book is useless to you.
This, by the way, is the same issue that you have with Runer's Companion: If your game is not going to be allowing
players things like SURGE, Metavariants, Karma or Priority Chargen, Sapient Critters, AIs, Spirits, or Infected....well, there is
alot in the book that is pretty much useless for a player. Interestingly, Runner's Companion is also the most looked down
upon of the core books. Coincidence? I think not.
I hate to say it, but the Shadowrun Fanbase seems to fall into two categories: those who just want a game about shooting
people in the face for money....with elves, and those who want to treat the universe as the living, breathing thing it is. The
'net vocal majority are the "Shooting people in the face for money...with elves" crowd. Books like WAR! are not intended for
them. Unfortunately, since War! includes something that are kind of odd(the whole Tree's sub-plot, for instance), some of the
"It is a living, breathing universe" crowd might get turned off. Regarding the Tree's plot? Yeah, it is strange, but, you know what?
We need some strange from time to time. Honestly, since 4th, we have had a little less strangeness in Shadowrun. It's been kind of
bland, really. This, strange, odd though it may be, injects back some of the old 2nd Edition "wait..what? Are you fragging SERIOUS?!"
back into the game.
So, over all, my impression of war is: Ambitious book..it did kind of fall short of what it was aiming for(something that everyone would
want to buy) by being too un-focused. However, it is still a useful book for people like me who will use the stuff as a GM or as a player
(already have a couple concepts going through my head from it for Technomancer and Mage characters, for instance). Good book for
those who want to know what is going on in the universe. If you don't like the trees? Well, duh, Fog of War...it's probably something
else, and people just THINK it's the trees...You can still use the info as presented for runs(steal the shipment of tree related stuff) or
even for your start of the session news bits(You do still do those, right?) Or maybe you are playing a character from Bogota who
is in Seattle, Chicago, LA, Hong Kong...The book, like Runners Companion, is a tool kit.
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I know bringing things back from the dead goes against SR principles, but the website redesign and my own recent forays into War! (it was at the bottom of the pile, sorry) have given me an insight I thought was worth sharing.
Both Mara’s post above (and this post (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3132.msg32779#msg32779) by Wesley Street) discuss what I think were the common expectations for War!
Knowing that the book would focus on the war between Aztlan/Aztech and Amazonia, a lot of expectations were for a Plot sourcebook (http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/plot-sourcebooks/) that covered the conflict in detail. Both Emergence and Ghost Cartels were excellent books, so expectations were high.
I can’t substantiate this, but I believe that Shadowrun players often have a fair bit of interest in militaries, military history and weaponry. So there were hopes for plenty of maps, detailed progression of battles, high-level strategies and (of course) MilSpec Tech. I’m not sure if this would classify more as Core Rulebook or Setting – probably depends on how crunchy it was.
What we got instead was the first of the Deep Shadows sourcebooks (http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/deep-shadows-sourcebooks/), a combination of setting, metaplot and gear, with a focus on setting. Which is fine if you know that, but being the first of its kind, I think expectations were definitely geared to the styles listed above. I believe the book was marketed to those expectations as well.
We can expect similar formats for Spy Games and Conspiracy Theories. I’m looking forward to both those books. My hope is that the editing problems that plagued War! (which have been discussed ad nauseum but are hard to avoid) will not be present in those books and will lead to a better reception.
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My hope is that the editing problems that plagued War! (which have been discussed ad nauseum but are hard to avoid) will not be present in those books and will lead to a better reception.
So far commentary on the editing and proofing for Attitude has been fairly positive. And I know that a concerted effort was made by the freelance pool to look Attitude over and check things for ourselves before it went to layout. So that probably helped. :)
Bull
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OK, read through War! again. My first take on it was from reading it in an ER Waiting Room during a sleepless and very stressful night. And day. And night again.
Anyhow, I think it was my expectations that coloured my view of War!, as well as the environment (mentally and physically) I was reading it in. As some had said numerous times, "We expected War! and got Bogota!".
There is a slight bit of truth to that. It does seem like the book focuses too much on one area of the world while the rest is just dropped in. And the lack of a map of Bogota is really telling as well (Sorry, but I likes me my maps. Show my groups where they are and where they're going, and so on.).
Some of the items in the equipment section are rather, odd as well. Some are quite powerful, but the availability makes them easy enough to not allow, and also "rare" enough to ramp up the power level of adversaries as they're hunted for having military hardware.
I've given it a second chance, and I have to say I'm happy enough with my purchase.
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New kit is always good, but i find myself liking the story and setting. But then I admit i have a soft spot for mercs in the sixth world.
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Merc = runners that can play with the big toys.
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"Didn't we hire the Merc just because he had an LMG." "Shhhh, he might read this." :P
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I can neither confirm or deny anything from the previous two statements.
8)
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WAR!
What is, it good for? Heuh!
Anyway, I like any and every setting book or info i can find. I tend to dislike most of the gear and rules I found in War!, but a few were useful, esp. the Leadership rules and the Element grenade spell (I LOVE that one!). In general, i disallow any gear from War!.
On another note, What kind of qualifications do you think are necessary to be a writer for CGL? I am currently in college with a focus on writing and computer technologies, and my eventual desire is to be a writer for a game, be it an RP game or a video game. I am practically obsessing over SR anyway-why not put my fiction overdrive to good use?
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WAR!
What is, it good for? Heuh!
"War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?" Colon said.
"Dunno, sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?"
"Absol— Well, okay."
"Defending yourself from a totalitarian aggressor?"
"All right, I’ll grant you that, but—"
"Saving civilisation against a horde of—"
"It doesn’t do any good in the long run is what I’m saying, Nobby, if you’d listen for five seconds together," Fred Colon sharply.
"Yeah, but in the long run what does, sarge?" - Thud! by Sir Terry Pratchett