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The Wage Slave's Guide to the Sixth World

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ImaginalDisc

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« Reply #60 on: <09-06-13/1130:09> »
You raise fair points, but Shadowrun is an exaggeration of (actual or perceived) dystopian trends of isolation, inequality, and powerlessness. If an Areas accountant, who considers herself fortunate to have an AAA corporate exec SIN was born and raised in Ares home, educated in an Ares school, owes a debt to Ares for her Ares private university education, drives an Ares subsidiary's car, eats Ares (subsidiary) foods, and essentially rolls over her entire income back to the company, who controls the wealth she generates through her labor?

Oh, I know in SR she's totally living within a microcosm that is what we would consider a communist state, with the Corp being the central planning authority responsible for the means of production. The problem is that such states are not sustainable with any quality in their standard of living; but maybe that's the point.

It's not *quite* communist, but close. The corp is controlling innovation, the acquisition of raw materials, transportation, manufacturing, administration costs, everything. They are taking the profit at every level of economic activity.

However, unlike a communist state they aren't stagnant. They are exploiting their workers/customers/citizens/valued resources ruthlessly and have tilted the tables in favor of employers over employees, but they have to compete aggressively with the nine other megas and all the smaller corps nipping at their heels.

Let's say Ares is forcing (or enticing) their employees who are in the market for a new car to buy the latest Ford Americar. If they produce it as a cost of $20,000, and their employees (using their generous company script discounts) buy it at $25,000, then the company pockets $5000 out of their own employees. Win.

However, if a rival mega corp forces (or incentives) their own employees to buy their Mercury Comet (an equivalent vehicle) at $24,000 and they produce it at a cost of only 18,000, they are raking in $6000 and are at a big competitive advantage as compared to Ares.

The megas are playing a big game where to increase their chances for success, they make you lose, chummer.

They say that every poker game has a chump, and if you don't know who it is at your table, it's you.
« Last Edit: <09-06-13/1132:17> by ImaginalDisc »

Lusis

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« Reply #61 on: <09-06-13/1203:40> »
It's not *quite* communist, but close. The corp is controlling innovation, the acquisition of raw materials, transportation, manufacturing, administration costs, everything. They are taking the profit at every level of economic activity.

However, unlike a communist state they aren't stagnant. They are exploiting their workers/customers/citizens/valued resources ruthlessly and have tilted the tables in favor of employers over employees, but they have to compete aggressively with the nine other megas and all the smaller corps nipping at their heels.

Let's say Ares is forcing (or enticing) their employees who are in the market for a new car to buy the latest Ford Americar. If they produce it as a cost of $20,000, and their employees (using their generous company script discounts) buy it at $25,000, then the company pockets $5000 out of their own employees. Win.
Not really a win. Money shuffles from one department to another in your example. No new wealth is created or even infused. The numbers change on the Excel/PowerPoint/whatever they use in SR, but it's really just an illusion. Add to that the fact that closed systems stagnate; while they may see some short-term benefit, they couldn't keep it up.

In that light, the question still remains, that with all this misery, where does the money come from? Not themselves. The CC has to be cooking the books and printing Nuyen on a level that makes Ben Bernanke and the communist Chinese look like a bunch of noobs. Which not sustainable whatsoever.

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However, if a rival mega corp forces (or incentives) their own employees to buy their Mercury Comet (an equivalent vehicle) at $24,000 and they produce it at a cost of only 18,000, they are raking in $6000 and are at a big competitive advantage as compared to Ares.
Which is my point. Mercury and the people that moved and sold it have introduced new revenue, that is a win.

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The megas are playing a big game where to increase their chances for success, they make you lose, chummer.
Not really, because someone has a new car.  8)

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They say that every poker game has a chump, and if you don't know who it is at your table, it's you.
What we are talking about isn't a poker game, just as sound economics aren't based on a dumb pie chart.
« Last Edit: <09-06-13/1207:51> by Lusis »
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #62 on: <09-06-13/1227:47> »
BTW, have the sourcebooks stated what the percentage of citizens (world or within a specific nation) that work for a AA and up, or even a AAA corp?

Not exactly, tho you can find "% corporate affiliated" in some sourcebooks. Since some corps (Like Aztechnology) hide their numbers, and since Shadowrun kind of has history with fuzzy demographics (Hello, NAN!), it's not the most reliable thing. It's what we have to work with, so you do what you can. Better to leave it for individual GMs, letting them set the level of 'wageslave slider' on their own game.

« Last Edit: <09-06-13/1229:25> by Wakshaani »

Sendaz

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« Reply #63 on: <09-06-13/1238:36> »
Plus with all the shadowruns going on, there is a ludicrously high turn over rate for security guards who end up shot, maimed, mind raped, blown up, liquefied, and other nasty ends.

Some corps don't even bother fixing the armor they salv--err  recovered off the last sec team outside of a disinfectant rinse to try and get the majority of the blood stains out before sticking it on the new guys.

:P
« Last Edit: <09-06-13/1240:17> by Sendaz »
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Angelone

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« Reply #64 on: <09-06-13/1244:56> »
Yeah um, sorry about that I had a rough week and needed to work out some frustrations.
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ImaginalDisc

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« Reply #65 on: <09-06-13/1308:48> »
Plus with all the shadowruns going on, there is a ludicrously high turn over rate for security guards who end up shot, maimed, mind raped, blown up, liquefied, and other nasty ends.

Some corps don't even bother fixing the armor they salv--err  recovered off the last sec team outside of a disinfectant rinse to try and get the majority of the blood stains out before sticking it on the new guys.

:P

How many Shadowrunners are there, really?

I always envisioned runners as perhaps 1 out of 100,000 to 1 out of 10,000. That way Seattle (population approx. 4,000,000) has between 40-400 active runners at any given time.

Even if 400 runners are commiting messy runs every month at a rate of one SINner death a month for 4800 deaths, that's a rate of 120 per 100,000. That's lighter than Ciudad Juarez!

Of course, that doesn't factor in all the *other* violence and crime Shadowrunners blend in with,

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« Reply #66 on: <09-06-13/1436:03> »
How many runners there are is a number that will probably never be even close to given.  All I know is, despite being "less than 1% of the population", there's a lot of Awakened who are runners.  And a lot of SURGE victims who are runners.  And a lot of SURGE Awakened...
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ImaginalDisc

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« Reply #67 on: <09-06-13/1514:02> »
How many runners there are is a number that will probably never be even close to given.  All I know is, despite being "less than 1% of the population", there's a lot of Awakened who are runners.  And a lot of SURGE victims who are runners.  And a lot of SURGE Awakened...

What, misfits and outcasts becoming professional criminals? No way!

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #68 on: <09-08-13/0225:53> »
Children, children, let Papa Wyrm quote you a quote.  But first, drop your 'total dystopia' at the door; it doesn't actually fit into Shadowrun.  Cyberpunk, yes - but this isn't exactly Cyberpunk 2020, now, is it?

Quote from: Wobbly, Corporate Download, 2061, p. 16, rt. column, paragraph 2
The amount of assets the Big Ten claim is almost beyond scale, easily accounting for at least a quarter of the world's wealth (in all likelihood, this figure is much higher, especially if you estimate secret funds and hidden ownership).
If that number hit 40%, it would be obscenely high - and probably just about what Wobbly thinks is low.  (Wobbly is, by Captain Chaos' description, a 'retro-anarchist'.  In my estimation, his conservative estimates would be about my overestimates, so I'll call that 'about right' for our purposes.)  That is functionally 'for any iteration of the Big Ten'.  Yes, they've only gotten bigger, but you can only get so big before you cannot keep absolutely everything you acquire; a monopoly is a very rare beast indeed, and only ever seen locally.

People in the AAAs do not work 13-16 hour shifts (that's your "8 to 9" shift, "plus a couple/three hours overtime to show your loyalty) for 6 days a week, and this isn't because they'd rebel; it's because the human body can't handle that level of toil without crapping out sooner instead of later.  By sooner I mean 'two weeks', not 'two months and you get a new wageslave'.  The body shuts down.  People in crap jobs in what was Costa Rica and in the Philippines and Malaysia and the Ivory Coast work 10-12 hours a day five days a week; a lot of manager-sorts in fast food in the US do that, and are 'required' to do it (or are required to be scheduled for it, anyhow).  Even that takes a toll, but it's survivable.  13-16 hour days six days in a row, a day to 'recover' ... the body can't handle it.

(N.B. - yes, I know the stats out of the workhouses in the Industrial Age.  They didn't change because management felt sorry for the workers, they changed because workers were getting revenge, and giving them lighter schedules was less expensive than replacing their Very Expensive machines.)

The AAAs are where everyone wants to be.  The corporate drones work 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week.  The loyal ones put in an extra hour or two and  work a half-day on Day 6 to boot.  Drones don't want to get the boot (especially if they've been raised in the corp!!) because they don't know how to handle not being in that structure - but despite that panic, if they get the boot, yeah, they'll be on the street - but they're exactly the sort that A-corp is hunting for, and will get snapped up well ahead of Lug the Trog From West Albania St. in Puyallup.

And y'know what?  Drone Z, who's experienced that three weeks of pinching pennies and eating flavorless soy and major, major panic and how am I going to survive the rest of my life, is going to become one of the Loyal Ones because he never never ever wants to risk that again.

How much wealth do the other corporations control?  Get down to it, how much wealth do they control today?  We can say that 'the top 5% control 95% of the world's wealth', but that's done by way of corporations - and really, that isn't going to have changed much if at all.  Damien Knight doesn't have a billion nuyen stuffed under his mattress any more than Oprah Winfrey does; they have it invested.  They're worth billions on paper, but the paper that represents those billions is invested - in corporations, in control of corporations.  Or, from another angle, those corporations control those billions in wealth.

Similarly, wealth that doesn't move isn't wealth - it's money in a piggybank.  I pay you $1.00 for NERPS, and I pay $0.09 to move that NERPS down the street, where I sell that NERPS for $1.11.  I've just made $0.02 - but I've only done so by paying you $1.00, and the gas and transport people $0.09.  I've invested my wealth, recouped my investment, and made a profit.  That can't happen unless ... I buy NERPS from you in the first place, and make my wealth move.

Meanwhile, you got $1.00, and the little guys got $0.09, of which the gas company got $0.05, the transport people got $0.03, and the guy who did the actual transporting got $0.01.  His entire paycheck is only equal to half of my profit ... but, poor sod, that's how I make my living, and that's how he makes his.  Be damn sure he'll be back at your docks tomorrow to pick up the NERPS I'm purchasing from you then, because that IS his living, even if it takes him nine hours to get NERPS from Point A to Point B.

And yes, if he quits, we can find another driver - but that disrupts the flow for a bit, and by gum people want their NERPS and they want them now.  If I kill Transport Guy off by working him too hard, or if I have to train Street Guy to become Transport Guy, that's going to squeeze the flow of NERPS, and reduce MY opportunity to make profit by selling the public NERPS.  (BTW - NERPS on sale, now only $1.10.  Buy today!)  I want TG to work his ass off to make that $0.01 - but not so hard that he croaks, or gets sick, or gets fed up and blows up either my shop, his truck, or your NERPS production facility.

It's all about profit - or as the Chromed Accountant says, "It's all about dollars and sense."  Dead/sick/PO'd employees don't make a profit.  Yes, we can tell them how good they have it compared to the people 'out there', but while the Big Ten corporations control 40% of the world's wealth, they don't control 40% of the world's population.  At a general estimate, Renraku had 100,000 citizens in Seattle; we know that there were 90,000 of them inside the Arcology when it blew.  100,000 out of 3,000,000+ = 3.33%.  Lower, because that ballpark figure IS a minimum.  And Renraku was one of, if not the, most significant corporate presences in Seattle, all because of that great Arcology experiment.

Yes, they control lots of people; no, it's not going to be equivalent to their control over the world's wealth, because then what the frag's the point?  The idea is to gain MORE of the pie, not 'just enough for your slice of the people'...

ImaginalDisc, someone once came up with some interesting ballpark figures about that.  This was pre-4th, and might've been pre-3rd, but it boiled down to 60-120 shadowrunning teams: 60 mages and deckers; 120 adepts and riggers; and 300 muscle of various other flavors.  Obviously, it's implied that mages and deckers would tend to work for more than one group, or work for one and sometimes 'hire out' to others, but ...
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ImaginalDisc

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« Reply #69 on: <09-08-13/0917:06> »
Children, children, let Papa Wyrm quote you a quote.  But first, drop your 'total dystopia' at the door; it doesn't actually fit into Shadowrun.  Cyberpunk, yes - but this isn't exactly Cyberpunk 2020, now, is it?

Quote from: Wobbly, Corporate Download, 2061, p. 16, rt. column, paragraph 2
The amount of assets the Big Ten claim is almost beyond scale, easily accounting for at least a quarter of the world's wealth (in all likelihood, this figure is much higher, especially if you estimate secret funds and hidden ownership).
If that number hit 40%, it would be obscenely high - and probably just about what Wobbly thinks is low.  (Wobbly is, by Captain Chaos' description, a 'retro-anarchist'.  In my estimation, his conservative estimates would be about my overestimates, so I'll call that 'about right' for our purposes.)  That is functionally 'for any iteration of the Big Ten'.  Yes, they've only gotten bigger, but you can only get so big before you cannot keep absolutely everything you acquire; a monopoly is a very rare beast indeed, and only ever seen locally.

Yeay for citation! Is there more than just that to go on, though? It's the details that interest me and help me as a GM create setting.

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People in the AAAs do not work 13-16 hour shifts (that's your "8 to 9" shift, "plus a couple/three hours overtime to show your loyalty) for 6 days a week, and this isn't because they'd rebel; it's because the human body can't handle that level of toil without crapping out sooner instead of later.  By sooner I mean 'two weeks', not 'two months and you get a new wageslave'.  The body shuts down.  People in crap jobs in what was Costa Rica and in the Philippines and Malaysia and the Ivory Coast work 10-12 hours a day five days a week; a lot of manager-sorts in fast food in the US do that, and are 'required' to do it (or are required to be scheduled for it, anyhow).  Even that takes a toll, but it's survivable.  13-16 hour days six days in a row, a day to 'recover' ... the body can't handle it.

(N.B. - yes, I know the stats out of the workhouses in the Industrial Age.  They didn't change because management felt sorry for the workers, they changed because workers were getting revenge, and giving them lighter schedules was less expensive than replacing their Very Expensive machines.)

The AAAs are where everyone wants to be.  The corporate drones work 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week.  The loyal ones put in an extra hour or two and  work a half-day on Day 6 to boot.  Drones don't want to get the boot (especially if they've been raised in the corp!!) because they don't know how to handle not being in that structure - but despite that panic, if they get the boot, yeah, they'll be on the street - but they're exactly the sort that A-corp is hunting for, and will get snapped up well ahead of Lug the Trog From West Albania St. in Puyallup.

Actually I was looking for evidence of brutal hours in the pre-industrial world and I found entirely the opposite.

"The labouring man will take his rest long in the morning; a good piece of the day is spent afore he come at his work; then he must have his breakfast, though he have not earned it at his accustomed hour, or else there is grudging and murmuring; when the clock smiteth, he will cast down his burden in the midway, and whatsoever he is in hand with, he will leave it as it is, though many times it is marred afore he come again; he may not lose his meat, what danger soever the work is in. At noon he must have his sleeping time, then his bever in the afternoon, which spendeth a great part of the day; and when his hour cometh at night, at the first stroke of the clock he casteth down his tools, leaveth his work, in what need or case soever the work standeth.
        -James Pilkington, Bishop of Durham, ca. 1570"
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

12-16 hour days arose in the Industrial revolution, but dropped away for most workers. Not only did unions fight back, but it hurt productivity.


This is a sweet gapminder graph showing a negative correlation between hours worked and productivity.

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

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And y'know what?  Drone Z, who's experienced that three weeks of pinching pennies and eating flavorless soy and major, major panic and how am I going to survive the rest of my life, is going to become one of the Loyal Ones because he never never ever wants to risk that again.

How much wealth do the other corporations control?  Get down to it, how much wealth do they control today?  We can say that 'the top 5% control 95% of the world's wealth', but that's done by way of corporations - and really, that isn't going to have changed much if at all.  Damien Knight doesn't have a billion nuyen stuffed under his mattress any more than Oprah Winfrey does; they have it invested.  They're worth billions on paper, but the paper that represents those billions is invested - in corporations, in control of corporations.  Or, from another angle, those corporations control those billions in wealth.

Similarly, wealth that doesn't move isn't wealth - it's money in a piggybank.  I pay you $1.00 for NERPS, and I pay $0.09 to move that NERPS down the street, where I sell that NERPS for $1.11.  I've just made $0.02 - but I've only done so by paying you $1.00, and the gas and transport people $0.09.  I've invested my wealth, recouped my investment, and made a profit.  That can't happen unless ... I buy NERPS from you in the first place, and make my wealth move.

Meanwhile, you got $1.00, and the little guys got $0.09, of which the gas company got $0.05, the transport people got $0.03, and the guy who did the actual transporting got $0.01.  His entire paycheck is only equal to half of my profit ... but, poor sod, that's how I make my living, and that's how he makes his.  Be damn sure he'll be back at your docks tomorrow to pick up the NERPS I'm purchasing from you then, because that IS his living, even if it takes him nine hours to get NERPS from Point A to Point B.

And yes, if he quits, we can find another driver - but that disrupts the flow for a bit, and by gum people want their NERPS and they want them now.  If I kill Transport Guy off by working him too hard, or if I have to train Street Guy to become Transport Guy, that's going to squeeze the flow of NERPS, and reduce MY opportunity to make profit by selling the public NERPS.  (BTW - NERPS on sale, now only $1.10.  Buy today!)  I want TG to work his ass off to make that $0.01 - but not so hard that he croaks, or gets sick, or gets fed up and blows up either my shop, his truck, or your NERPS production facility.

It's all about profit - or as the Chromed Accountant says, "It's all about dollars and sense."  Dead/sick/PO'd employees don't make a profit.  Yes, we can tell them how good they have it compared to the people 'out there', but while the Big Ten corporations control 40% of the world's wealth, they don't control 40% of the world's population.  At a general estimate, Renraku had 100,000 citizens in Seattle; we know that there were 90,000 of them inside the Arcology when it blew.  100,000 out of 3,000,000+ = 3.33%.  Lower, because that ballpark figure IS a minimum.  And Renraku was one of, if not the, most significant corporate presences in Seattle, all because of that great Arcology experiment.

Yes, they control lots of people; no, it's not going to be equivalent to their control over the world's wealth, because then what the frag's the point?  The idea is to gain MORE of the pie, not 'just enough for your slice of the people'...

ImaginalDisc, someone once came up with some interesting ballpark figures about that.  This was pre-4th, and might've been pre-3rd, but it boiled down to 60-120 shadowrunning teams: 60 mages and deckers; 120 adepts and riggers; and 300 muscle of various other flavors.  Obviously, it's implied that mages and deckers would tend to work for more than one group, or work for one and sometimes 'hire out' to others, but ...

That comes to 1 in 8333 people being a Shadowrunner in a city like Seattle (Pop 4 million according to the wiki.) That's workable. That's not a very large Shadow economy. Now I'm doing back of the envelope calculations on much much wealth goes through their hands a year and it's impressive, but not enough to make corps try to squeeze out such useful deniable assets.

grid_roamer

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« Reply #70 on: <09-08-13/1219:21> »
You raise fair points, but Shadowrun is an exageration of (actual or percieved) dytpoian trends of isolation, inequality, and powerlessness. If an Areas accountant, who considers herself fortunate to have an AAA corporate exec SIN was born and raised in Ares home, educated in an Ares school, owes a debt to Ares for her Ares private university education, drives an Ares subsidiary's car, eats Ares (subsidiary) foods, and essentially rolls over her entire income back to the company, who controls the wealth she generates through her labor?

Oh, I know in SR she's totally living within a microcosm that is what we would consider a communist state, with the Corp being the central planning authority responsible for the means of production. The problem is that such states are not sustainable with any quality in their standard of living; but maybe that's the point.

I see the problem as the agenda of a central planning authority where there is no way to argue what an average person needs to live and how much. The law making process takes almost no heed of second party needs....


Reaver

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« Reply #71 on: <09-08-13/2213:04> »
Yep, living in 2075 really sucks.

The big boys on the block (the Megas) are constantly pushing the little boys down :( (everyone else)


But honestly lets look at everything (wyrm did a great job!)... First, while the Megas don't own everything, they own enough and have enough clout to get their way... and they know how to use it to their advantage! As others have stated, working for a Mega means that the average wageslave has hit the gravy train... as long as he produces! He gets corp health care, corp housing, Corp discounts on food, clothing, entertainment... the works. All that is expected of him is his soul :D So he works hard, puts in overtime without being asked, and plays at being the good little drone (if the corporate brainwashing didn't make him a good little drone to start with!)

And if he doesn't like it, he can leave! (as long as his contact allows him to!) and he can go work for someone else..... but who?

Once you drop down to the "A" rated corps or less, you lose A LOT of the things that the Megas provided. Like health care, food discounts, Housing, education and al the rest...... Suddenly *YOU* have to start paying for these things or go without. And in 2075 Going without is dangerous! (but can be done)

******

Now lets look at Society in general.. and we'll just stick to the UCAS (cause that is the center of the SR universe... )


A large percentage of the population simply can not read anymore... Technology has made Reading and Reading Comprehension a moot point. you don't need to be able to read to operate a commlink.. you just have to be able to "understand" the symbols (the power button on my laptop is a great example.. no where does it say "power" but I know that the circle with a line in the top means "power")

Equality and "human rights" have both taken huge steps forward and backward.... No longer to *I* care that your skin color is darker then mine... *I* care about the 10 foot guy with hands that could palm a basketball and the strength of 3 average men... not to mention the horns, tusks, and dermal deposits means he barely looks human!

There is work to be done... and then there is Jobs... and then there are careers.... Work is done by with wonderful thing called "technology". No longer do companies have to hire, train, and pay workers to stock shelves, move freight, or anyone of a hundred other tasks.... a drone can do all that 20 hours a day 7 days a week for weeks at a time before maintenance is needed (and then it is minimal) all for the cost of half a year's wages that would have been paid to a meat worker, for half the productivity! (so there goes a lot of moderate paying jobs right out of the gate!)

Unions exist still....as shadows of themselves. They only come into play on companies big enough to need mass labour and can not fold to avoid them, but become totally mute one a AA+ company..... Those companies can write their own rulebook.. and those rules say "NO UNIONS! NO LABOR ORGANIZATIONS, NO WORKER'S ALLIANCE!!!"... and cause they write the rules... the consequence of trying to organize or unionize could be anything from being fired to "enforced volunteering" for medical genome research ("expected survival rate? 2%. But you'll have nifty purple skin tone!!)

Sure, there are hundreds of small mom and Pop, and even companies with 100s of employees (the Megas can't absorb everything... not that they would want to!) but when you look at the effort involved in working there VS the effort of working for a Mega, the advantages of the Mega VS the "smaller guy".. the question becomes, "why wouldn't you work for a Mega??" Same hours of work, but the megas "provide" so much more!





And we havn't even touched on things like access to education, SINs and how they work, how the UCAS operates, and what people expect VS what is actually out there.... In short, to the average wageslave, a Megacorp is the golden apple to shoot for, and everything else is uncertainty and desperation.   


Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #72 on: <09-09-13/1605:04> »
There's also Megacorp patriotism. People grow up in a Mega and believe they are the Good Guys. Perhaps the ONLY Good Guys.

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« Reply #73 on: <09-09-13/1829:07> »
Please remember to keep real-world statistics and politics out of the discussions regarding the Sixth World. Bringing in articles written in real-world publications to speculate on the Sixth World policies strides dangerously close to crossing the line.

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« Reply #74 on: <09-09-13/1840:04> »
There's also Megacorp patriotism. People grow up in a Mega and believe they are the Good Guys. Perhaps the ONLY Good Guys.

What you talking about????


Everyone who is ANYONE knows that Ares IS the only good corp :D
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.