[CanRay]

Think of it this way.  The Corporate Court (The AAA-Corporations) own the UN and its respective nations in everything but word.  And the AA-Corporations are considered Corporate Court Citizens.

The scraps are all that is left for that 20%, which doesn't seem exceptional at all when you look at subsidiaries of megas being part of the megas.

Also, the Corporate Court makes Nuyen.  All of it.  With no backing aside from, "How would you like your nation?  Economically depressed into the Stone Age, or just hit with a whole lot of Orbitally-Dropped Crowbars?" to the folks that complain.

[Lusis]

Yeah, 80% seems ridiculously high, I'd guess more like 60% at the most.

No guessing.  Numbers were provided.  If it seems ridiculously high, it's because you're vastly underestimate the degree to which the Big Ten control the world for the simple purpose of making more money.

LOL. It's realistically not plausible IMO, but ok.

[Lusis]

Think of it this way.  The Corporate Court (The AAA-Corporations) own the UN and its respective nations in everything but word.  And the AA-Corporations are considered Corporate Court Citizens.

The scraps are all that is left for that 20%, which doesn't seem exceptional at all when you look at subsidiaries of megas being part of the megas.

Also, the Corporate Court makes Nuyen.  All of it.  With no backing aside from, "How would you like your nation?  Economically depressed into the Stone Age, or just hit with a whole lot of Orbitally-Dropped Crowbars?" to the folks that complain.

Now one thing though, there are more AAA's than just the Big Ten IIRC.

[RHat]

And why is that so implausible?

[Lusis]

And why is that so implausible?

Because we're talking about ALL the trade in the entire world...and if a governing body could possibly control even that much then communism would work. 
Even the Soviets had mad amounts of black market corruption.

But hell, we are talking about a fantasy world. 

[Wakshaani]

LOL. It's realistically not plausible IMO, but ok.

You'd be *stunned* to see how much wealth is actually concentrated in today's world. People have trouble wrapping their head around it.

[Black]

hmn...

I don't think the existence of numerious small to medium enterprises neccessarily contradicts the accumulation of wealth by a small number of intensely powerful entities.  I believe both can exist, as they certainly already do in today's world.

So the Mega's and their peers may control the majority of the world's wealth, while still allowing the existing of numious small businesses operating semi-independently of the this power structure.  Supporting companies which are useful, but do not need to be owned by the affliated mega (supply companies, service companies) or which are moderately successful in their own area, but not so successful to attract the attention of the large and mightly.  Infact, many of the technical start ups are great sources for new ideas.

Now the wage slaves who live outside the Mega corp world?  There life would be much like the low income earners of today, just even more precarious.  Long hours at pay even lower then that of the corps, while paying for cheap housing and eating frozen soy dinners.  More freedom to jump ship to another company (after all, there isn't the same ties that the Megas place on their employees), but also far less certainity and security in life.  The goal of a non-corp affliated wage slave?  To one day become a corp employee and live in corp housing and have corp medical care.  That's the dream goal, oh yeah.  One day, one day...

[Wakshaani]

They exist but they're small potatoes. You have AAA-rated corps on the Corporate Council, then the extra-territorial AA-rated, then the "minor leagues" of A-rated corps, but there are plenty of businesses out there whcih aren't rated at A-status, like Fred's Pancakes House. He has a few franchises, operates out of several cities in the northeast, but a dozen eateries does not an A-rated corporation make.

Given a breakdown off the top of my head, I'd say wealth goes roughly like so:
AAA-rated - 60%
AA-rated - 20%
A-Rated - 12%
Unrated - 6%
Shadows - 2%

(Shadows economy being things like paying babysitters in cash, paying a friend who fixes your car, paying illegal immigrants off the books, and so on.)

That probably inflates the lower groups at the expense of teh upper, but for "pulled out of my hindquarters" numbers, they don't look terrible and explain the gobbling nature of the big guns: WIth 10 AA-rated, they each have about 6% of the world's business wealth, while each of the A-rated ones have around .024% each, making them essentially prey if they catch a big guy's eye.

[ImaginalDisc]

The income inequality today is much worse than the AAA's owning 60% of the wealth.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/inequality-page25_actualdistribwithlegend.png

 I wouldn't consider it unreasonable for a breakdown in Shadowrun to be:

AAA: 90% of wealth.
AA: 9% of wealth.
A: 0.9%.
Unrated: 0.06%.
Shadow: 0.04%.

By 2070 in Shadowrun, corps have almost entirely displaced nations. They drive econonomies and get you coming and going. Companies conspire against one another, but are united in extracting every fraction of a nuyen out of people through every microtransaction. Most corporate wage-slaves turn over all or most of their income back to the corporation because most of their economic activity is channeled through the company store or company script.

Even today, productivity has been trending way up since the 1970's, typical wage earner income is flat (or falling depending on your income bracket. With minimum wage falling behind inflation, minimum wage earners are worse off every year) and the income of the top 1% has increased by over 200%. They are getting more out of us than ever before, and are giving you less in return.

Take the real trends, project them and exagerate them slightly for dystopian effect and you get the top 1% (assuming 1% of the population are AAA and AA corporate SINners) owning 99% of the wealth.
Source for the above image: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

[Lusis]

Yeeeeahh. Mother Jones isn't exactly who I'd trust for an unbiased article on the subject of "income inequality" when the very label carries ideological bias.

I could point to articles that state that 80% of the money spent is controlled by women, which is an old marketing adage, but it is hardly accurate. Even then, we could scream all day about INCOME EQUALITAY! which is what a lot of people do.

I'd sooner trust Forbes on this matter: http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/22/the-147-companies-that-control-everything/ 
Read the article. It isn't as easy as Rich Uncle Pennybags having 80% of the wealth in his bank account. A lot of what MJ's two-dimensional graph comes down to is how you categorize the numbers; and being a CEO of a 401k management firm with $20 billion in accounts isn't the same as owning (or even controlling in the MJ sense) $20 billion.

"Lies, damn lies, and statistics".

[Lusis]

BTW, have the sourcebooks stated what the percentage of citizens (world or within a specific nation) that work for a AA and up, or even a AAA corp?

[ImaginalDisc]

It isn't as easy as Rich Uncle Pennybags having 80% of the wealth in his bank account. A lot of what MJ's two-dimensional graph comes down to is how you categorize the numbers; and being a CEO of a 401k management firm with $20 billion in accounts isn't the same as owning (or even controlling in the MJ sense) $20 billion.

You raise fair points, but Shadowrun is an exageration of (actual or percieved) dystpoian trends of isolation, inequality, and powerlessness. If an Areas accountant, who considers herself fortunate to have an AAA corporate exec SIN was born and raised in Ares home, educated in an Ares school, owes a debt to Ares for her Ares private university education, drives an Ares subsidiary's car, eats Ares (subsidiary) foods, and essentially rolls over her entire income back to the company, who controls the wealth she generates through her labor?

[Lusis]

By 2070 in Shadowrun, corps have almost entirely displaced nations. They drive econonomies and get you coming and going. Companies conspire against one another, but are united in extracting every fraction of a nuyen out of people through every microtransaction. Most corporate wage-slaves turn over all or most of their income back to the corporation because most of their economic activity is channeled through the company store or company script.

Gotcha. The issue is that there must be some outside income for these corps to even bother with producing goods. I don't see how a corp could survive with most of it's money flow being involved in one big circle-jerk. Granted I'm not an economist, but someone has to buy all those cool wizbang gadgets, and it isn't the government with all their productive taxpayers now paying taxes to their own corporations. Seems more possible if even the megacorps

Even today, productivity has been trending way up since the 1970's, typical wage earner income is flat (or falling depending on your income bracket. With minimum wage falling behind inflation, minimum wage earners are worse off every year) and the income of the top 1% has increased by over 200%. They are getting more out of us than ever before, and are giving you less in return.

The main reason for this is inflation, which is printed by the Federal Reserve. As far as personal wealth of individuals, it's hard to claim that people are poorer overall, with the amount of convenience at the fingertips of the average consumer. Although their cars were better up until 1973 IMO.

Productivity is largely up due to technology; agriculture being a prime example of this, .

But that's a discussion for another forum.



 

[ImaginalDisc]

By 2070 in Shadowrun, corps have almost entirely displaced nations. They drive econonomies and get you coming and going. Companies conspire against one another, but are united in extracting every fraction of a nuyen out of people through every microtransaction. Most corporate wage-slaves turn over all or most of their income back to the corporation because most of their economic activity is channeled through the company store or company script.

Gotcha. The issue is that there must be some outside income for these corps to even bother with producing goods. I don't see how a corp could survive with most of it's money flow being involved in one big circle-jerk. Granted I'm not an economist, but someone has to buy all those cool wizbang gadgets, and it isn't the government with all their productive taxpayers now paying taxes to their own corporations. Seems more possible if even the megacorps

Economics is not my area of expertise, so I may be off base here. However, as long as party A is providing goods and services party B wants, and party B has goods and services party A wants in exchange, an enconomy can function.

Even today, productivity has been trending way up since the 1970's, typical wage earner income is flat (or falling depending on your income bracket. With minimum wage falling behind inflation, minimum wage earners are worse off every year) and the income of the top 1% has increased by over 200%. They are getting more out of us than ever before, and are giving you less in return.

The main reason for this is inflation, which is printed by the Federal Reserve. As far as personal wealth of individuals, it's hard to claim that people are poorer overall, with the amount of convenience at the fingertips of the average consumer. Although their cars were better up until 1973 IMO.

Productivity is largely up due to technology; agriculture being a prime example of this, .

But that's a discussion for another forum. [/quote]

You raise several points.

1. Is wealth the same as confort? No. I am a lower-middle class wage earner in early 21st century America.

2. That is not the same as standard of living. My standard of living is leaps and bound ahead of what King Henry VIII enjoyed. However, *he* controlled a far greater share of the wealth of his time than I ever will. Wealth disparity influences how big of a slice of the pie you get, technology influences what's in your pie, and inflation influences the price of that pie.

[Lusis]

You raise fair points, but Shadowrun is an exageration of (actual or percieved) dytpoian trends of isolation, inequality, and powerlessness. If an Areas accountant, who considers herself fortunate to have an AAA corporate exec SIN was born and raised in Ares home, educated in an Ares school, owes a debt to Ares for her Ares private university education, drives an Ares subsidiary's car, eats Ares (subsidiary) foods, and essentially rolls over her entire income back to the company, who controls the wealth she generates through her labor?

Oh, I know in SR she's totally living within a microcosm that is what we would consider a communist state, with the Corp being the central planning authority responsible for the means of production. The problem is that such states are not sustainable with any quality in their standard of living; but maybe that's the point.