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[SR5] Data Trails?

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cantrip

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« Reply #165 on: <05-27-15/1614:10> »
Sweet! And ordered!!!  I've been looking forward to this for awhile - enjoyed the intro story already and look forward to digging in this weekend.
Also enjoying the art. :)
You guys rock!  ;D


Malevolence

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« Reply #166 on: <05-27-15/1644:07> »
1.) Data Trails is a purely Matrix book and AIs are purely Matrix Entities. Even when interacting with the physical world they have to do it through the lens of the Matrix. They are also readily available as player characters so they get a higher priority than something like Sprites even though Sprites are also Matrix entities.
Oh, now I want to see rules for Free Sprites and Ally Sprites and Sprite PCs.  :D
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Medicineman

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« Reply #167 on: <05-27-15/1649:38> »
1.) Data Trails is a purely Matrix book and AIs are purely Matrix Entities. Even when interacting with the physical world they have to do it through the lens of the Matrix. They are also readily available as player characters so they get a higher priority than something like Sprites even though Sprites are also Matrix entities.
Oh, now I want to see rules for Free Sprites and Ally Sprites and Sprite PCs.  :D

wait for the Follow up PDF to the Follow up TM PDF ;)

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Shirelagel

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« Reply #168 on: <05-27-15/1835:34> »
So... overall I like the book. But I have to gripe about the echos (hope an author reads this). The echos seem like they were written by someone who has never read much less played SR5.

FFF: Fine, it's actually pretty cool and balances against Mind Over Machine as an echo that replaces some cyberware

Mathemagics: WTF? Encrypt and decrypt are actions from 4th ed, not 5th. In 5th, this is all part of normal communication protocols (like in real life) so this power makes no sense and mechanically does nothing.

MMRI: A reprint of MOM?

Quiet: AOE noise reducer, could be useful for supplementing a party of deckers and riggers. But not as useful to a lone technomancer. But, not unbalanced.

Resonance Riding: So, you can do resonance actions except compile and register sprites and thread complex forms. That leave decompile sprites. Why can you decompile through a commlink but not compile? Isn't it the same thing in reverse? So realistically all this means is "if you GM said you can't hack with a deck because you technomancer skills are technically different from a decker's take this echo to play an even more expensive build of decker (or to hide your technomancy)

Resonance Scream: Like quiet, not bad, like using the jammer action as a free action without preventing yourself from hacking.

Skinlink: Like FFF and MOM this replaces cyberware, with the bonus of affecting devices even if you cannot get to the port.

Sleepwalker: Badly worded, I assume it was supposed to read "This allows them to choose to perform Perception-related Free Actions while in the Matrix for the real world.". Of course this still isn't all that useful since you could just have a window open with a view of the camera on your comlink.

So, here is how I am fixing these, if anyone cares. I included my design notes in italics. With the idea that echos are small bonuses or simply offer additional base capability.

The technomancer brain emulates a cyberdeck already, and 3 other echos replace cyberware. So why not have one that allows it to simulate a command console. All it needs is the master-slave interface that the living persona normally lacks

MMRI
Known as the Man-Machine Resonance Interface, this echo subtly manipulates the Resonance coming off the technomancer, allowing them to better control devices devices. This allows the Living Persona to act as the Master of a PAN using the Living Persona attributes. Thus allowing the Technomancer to provide master-slave matrix overwatch or slave and command drones as if they had a Command Console. They do not get the benefits of noise reduction as they would with a command console, there are other means to get that. Nor do they have room for autosofts, but if they Echo any programs these would still be passed down to the slaved devices. If they Echo an auto-soft, it runs at a rating equal to their Submersion grade and can apply to all slaved drones that are not running their own autosofts (as normal).

And since the original wording left no applicable actions.... Here is it useful as a means of pretending to be a decker, but not without its drawbacks

Resonance Riding
A strange twist of the Matrix follows the technomancer even through secondary means of connection, giving them the ability to perform some Resonance actions while jacked into the Matrix through a commlink or cyberdeck. While going through this secondary system, the technomancer can use their Living Persona and benefit from any of the Living Persona’s attributes while performing actions, but cannot perform the Compile Sprite, Register Sprite, or Thread Complex Form actions. Matrix damage goes to the device first, resisted with its Device Rating and the Technomancer's Firewall (if better), allowing it to acts as ablative armor for the technomancer. If the device is destroyed the Technomancer can choose to either stay connected as their normal Living Persona, or suffer dumpshock and lose connection. The Technomancer can benefit from programs and noise reduction from the device, but when doing so used the device's attributes instead of his own.

And this was poorly worded and a touch low on usefulness (since they can keep a view of their commlink camera open). So I made it more balanced by adding the distracted penalty to the perception roll, and had it affect the AR penalty, and added an option for actually sleepwalking.

Sleepwaker
The technomancer gains the ability to subconsciously perceive minor events happening around their body while working with the Matrix in VR. This allows them to choose to perform Perception tests of the real world, while in full VR, at -3 dice. This also ensures the technomancer never suffers the -2 penalty for real world acting in AR. Finally, this Echo allows the users to move their body in a mechanical zombie-like manner by splitting their dicepool between the matrix and real, no more than Submersion grade dice can be applied to non-matrix actions while in VR.

Run with the concept of super charging part of your brain, but applying the modifier to stats it would effect. The bonus would be much greater than that of other echos, so to balance that, I made it an advanced echo and effectively the "berserk rage" of a technomancer.

Mathemagics
Advanced Echo Requires: FFF and Overclock
Adjusting the brain to devote more power to higher brain functions increases the subconsious math processing potential of the technomancer. This allows the technomancer to have the ability to perform even complex math operations rapidly and with perfectly accurate results. When activated as a Free Action, this results in a +2 increase in Attack, Data Processing, and Firewall matrix attributes, but the Technomancer suffers a cumulative 1S fatigue damage each round this is maintained, the cumulated value decreases at the same rate. While active, the Technomancer sacrafices concepts of speech, social connection (including friend/foe acknowledgement), and memory. They set themselves to a specific goal and run at it. Such goals could be as simple "pass this math quiz" or a violent as "clear all persona and IC from this host". While active, FFF activates as well, as those parts of the brain turn from base needs to higher functions. Meaning, the technomancer is not aware of the amount of damage they are doing to their brain.
« Last Edit: <05-27-15/1837:18> by Shirelagel »

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #169 on: <05-27-15/1919:25> »
Software seems like a useless skill still. Its really useful for TMs since its used for threading. But aside from it being used for disarming data bombs, there is no point for it. And while, yes data bombs are dangerous, but what's the point of a skill that is designed to be used in only one specific way. Honestly, it'd probably be better to get rid of software and put its uses in to the computer or hacking skill. There is no rules to write or maintain software, and its not used to analyze programs, because that's a use of the computer skill. So there is clearly no point in having the skill so it should just be done away with.

I was also kind of hoping for some clarification on how skinlinks work. They're in Run & Gun but have no rules for them.

Also, what kind of software are you guys using to make these pdfs? I'd highly recommend using Adobe Indesign, it will generate your table of contents and index for you, which would be nicer than what this current book has.

taeo

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« Reply #170 on: <05-27-15/1924:55> »
If you really were locked in at a certain page count and were looking for something to cut, there is an entire chapter about how to play a hacker without having badwrong fun that seems a little unnecessary. Its capped off with some shoehorned politicizing about women in tech that honestly was pretty cringeworthy with how forced and hamfisted it was. As well as completely unsupported by any shadowrun material to date. It felt like someone was trying to make a point about current issues and weren't even concerned about being subtle about it.

I do like the Foundation stuff. I hope an errata is released soon to actually have that node map it talks about. Effectively having backdoors back has pretty much cleared up any complaints I had about the new matrix.

Bummer about the lack of rigging or TM stuff, but I'm sure that will come later. I hope the rigger stuff gets bumped up, because I'm getting a little tired of the arguments over linked attributes while jumped in, haha.

Why is Lurker concerned about convergence from GOD while inside a host? How are they able to access the archive without going through the foundation?

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #171 on: <05-27-15/1932:24> »
Also slightly underwhelmed on the TM front... leading up to release there where posts about how this was going to make TMs a lot more viable and just.... sure there's a massive amount of fluff for TMs, but frankly a couple of qualities and a sprinkling of complex forms and echoes (many of the later so badly worded I have no idea what they're supposed to do) really do bunkus for anyone wanting to play one in the big picture.

Moral of the story? Don't promise stuff you're not going to deliver. Sure there's a TON of info on resonance, realms, and dissonance that as someone new to SR I've been really wanting to read about and I'm excited to see what all this is about. But the only thing here that truly makes TMs more playable is Skinlink which quite frankly is going to be every single hacking focused technomancer's first echo EVER! Honestly, lack of something like skinlink is the single biggest hurdle to actually PLAYING a technomancer that I can see... it's just... why would any technomancer NOT take it? There is ZERO reason! So what's it do? It winds up taking up an Echo, it does nothing to diversify technomancers, it instead winds up reducing their options.

I dunno, a little sleep deprived (was up 'till after 1AM skimming through this) but.. it almost seems to me that Skinlink would be much better served as something you get as part of your first submersion rather than something that will always soak up your first Echo. The only real exception here would be dronomancers/technoriggers who will want MMRI.
« Last Edit: <05-27-15/1935:49> by ScytheKnight »
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Kincaid

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« Reply #172 on: <05-27-15/1954:40> »
Although I'm the only editor in the credits, other folks did editing work as well (the idea of solo editing 180 pages is not very appealing), so I can't really answer questions about (most) specific editing questions, but can give a decent overview about intent.

@DeathStrobe: I added Garbage In/Garbage Out to address the software deficit, actually.  Since I didn't actually sit down and write a chapter, it's not something that I could address on a larger scale, but software and EWAR are on the top of my "needs more love" list.

@Various TM thoughts: Presumably a fair amount of TM crunch got directed to the TM-specific product (I can only speak for what ended up on my desk).  Having said that, I really feel like technomancers and the Matrix in general needed more fluff.  It's easy to take what's said in these forums or at our own tables as representative, but in a lot of ways, we're way ahead of the curve.  We can have discussions about minority shareholders of Ares, but that's the exception, not the rule.  For someone entering the game, what the Matrix is, what is means, what it looks like, are really important elements of world-building.  One of the roles of a Matrix book is to demystify the Matrix.  Similarly, technomancers aren't refluffed deckers.  We know that because most of us have been playing the game for years.  But we can't assume that everyone who buys DT also owns Unwired, Virtual Realities, and the rest of that lineage.  Any archetype needs both compelling crunch and compelling fluff.
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #173 on: <05-27-15/2026:54> »
@Kincaid trust me mate, I'm not complaining too much about the fluff, I'm gonna love digging into this stiff.

But when people are promised amazing stuff for TMs, and then only get a couple of qualities, some possibly useful Complex Forms and a bunch of badly worded echoes... people are going to be rather sore.
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #174 on: <05-27-15/2156:07> »
@DeathStrobe: I added Garbage In/Garbage Out to address the software deficit, actually.  Since I didn't actually sit down and write a chapter, it's not something that I could address on a larger scale, but software and EWAR are on the top of my "needs more love" list.

Oh yeah, missed that. At least that does help a bit.

But I think SR4 might have gone a bit over the top when it split skills into many more skills. I realize that it's too late to address that for SR5. But I do hope that we see uses for less useful skills...or maybe some hardcore errata and do away with it...that'd be cool too... :P

Kincaid

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« Reply #175 on: <05-27-15/2204:30> »
@Kincaid trust me mate, I'm not complaining too much about the fluff, I'm gonna love digging into this stiff.

But when people are promised amazing stuff for TMs, and then only get a couple of qualities, some possibly useful Complex Forms and a bunch of badly worded echoes... people are going to be rather sore.

That's fair--I don't really know what was promised in terms of volume or scope.  I've often found that awesome varies tremendously from person to person.  FFF is awesome in an obvious and powerful way.  To me, Quiet and Res Scream are awesome because of the roleplaying potential of both--think how popular a guy with Quiet would be living in a low income zone with noise.  That's not super powerful or optimized (and I'm not against either of those things, but players make choices for non-optimal reasons sometimes), but it's cool and adds depth and richness to a character, which is pretty awesome.  It's worth noting that there are apparently a ton of pages devoted to technomancers on the horizon.  35k words is a LOT of pages--way more than could have possibly been shoehorned into DT.  In a sense, the problem isn't that there isn't enough TM material (although at this moment you can make that case), it's that there's too much.

@DeathStrobe: I think the best way to incorporate rare skills is probably through creating scenarios in modules that require them, if only to give GMs ideas as to how to use Free Fall (or whatever) in a normal, non-parachuting game.  In that sense, I don't think it's too late at all.  Trust me, I hate the "Automatics, Sneaking, done" characters out there, given the chance to throw them down an elevator shaft, I'll take it.
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #176 on: <05-27-15/2240:52> »
Look at some of the pregen stuff for ideas.

Heck even Plots & Paydata have a run that makes pretty good use of Software skill.

Sprawl Wilds has a mission that makes use of both hardware and software skills.

How do you make a player use the software skill? Give them a situation where they need a program to do something not covered by any of the existing programs. BAM! The character now needs to make an extended software test to write a specially tailored program (with possible added hilarity on glitches)
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #177 on: <05-27-15/2314:03> »
Assuming how many words would be on a page? going by 500 words per page, we're looking at around 70 pages, depending on how much art is included and the formatting and all that.

Data trails came out to about 186 something pages without those, and would be somewhere around 250 pages with them. Granted that would be 20 pages over Street Grimore. Then again, its only about 20 pages over Street Grimore. It would be 8 pages or so under Run Faster.

What determines the size of the books if its not the content to be added? Why does  Data Trails have the look of not really big splash books (Like Gun H3ven and Shadow Spells) with its table of contents and not the  TOC of Street Grimore, SR5 Core, Run and Gun, Run Faster
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #178 on: <05-27-15/2328:00> »
Well, since you're here helping clarifying things Kincaid, how do AI's handle convergence when outside of a device?

I know they need to resist 12 Matrix which hits their core. Assuming that doesn't knock them out, a demiGOD shows up and hits them with Crash Program until they start realignment. But how does an AI escape? Do they need to "jump in" to a device? It looks like on p153 an AI can jump in to devices with a command or spoof action, and I assume if successful, they're in. And once in they have 3 marks. So I guess they have to successfully reboot the device to wipe their OS and hope that whatever device they just entered is owned by someone friendly.

If an AI commands a device to load them, what kind of action is that? Complex, simple, or free? Because that'll determine how many marks they need. I guess they can just spoof, which only requires 1 mark. And just to make sure, but it sounds like an AI can do this to a device which already has a persona. I guess if an AI needs to make room to jumpin to a device, they'll need to do a crash program action if there are not enough open slots.

Okay, I guess I answered my own question. That all seems logical and bad ass to me. I can easily see a runner having an AI trying to escape GOD jump in to a runner's commlink, deck, or drone, which is an amazing plot hook.

It also says that persona's which have an AI in them take a -5 to Matrix actions. But at the same time, if its the home device, the AI optimizes and makes the device run better. Does that -5 apply to AIs when jumped in to their home device? And say, I'm a decker trying to stay on the bleeding edge, so naturally having an AI move in to my deck is a good way to get that little extra nudge. But I guess while the AI is home, the decker takes a -5 to all actions?

Pixie

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« Reply #179 on: <05-28-15/0000:45> »
You know what I'm seeing a lot of here?  Kincaid, one of the editors and freelancers, giving us all a candid look at what happens to make a book like Data Trails come out.  And in return, he is getting shit on by all the people who think that they could have done it better.  For what it's worth, I think it's a good thing that TMs will get a dedicated book.  Much like how riggers need a dedicated book.  Think of this analogy: a street samurai kills a bad guy by shooting him or slicing him (or both!).  A physical adept kills a bad guy by shooting him or slicing him (or both!).  They achieve similar results, but they go about it in VASTLY different ways.  That's what Kincaid means by saying that a technomancer is not just a re-skinned decker.

And he's completely right in his defense of the Matrix as a concept for new players.  Just because some of the people here have been playing for decades doesn't mean that's the case for all of us.  And even those that have played for decades didn't necessarily know how to describe the new Matrix.  We can all agree that the description of the Matrix and its architecture in the core book was lacking.  This fills that hole.  And many other holes, actually.  The only thing that people seem to have an issue with is that technomancers didn't get as much love as we all hoped.

Note that word there: hoped.  No one with Catalyst told us that technomancers would be getting the be-all-end-all solution in Data Trails.  The only thing that was listed about specifics was that technomancers would get new content with Data Trails - and they did.  Bear in mind that echoes, streams, paragons, and complex forms are all exclusive to technomancers, while everything else about the Matrix is open to anyone.  Literally.  Data Trails is like Arsenal or Run & Gun for the Matrix.  The new technomancer book will (presumably) be like Street Grimoire, Shadow Spells, and Aetherology.

Assuming the law of averages, it's pretty unlikely that every group will have a technomancer.  But it's statistically likely that every group will have a hacker (note that a hacker is not necessarily a decker).  Even if that hacker is a rigger trying to get by, or a face who has a bunch of skills and money to burn.  So this book addresses the most likely, most prevalent, most realistic aspects of the Matrix that need(ed) attention.  So please stop trying to take out your nerdrage on Kincaid.  He doesn't deserve it, and you all should be better than this.