Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: monkeyfeet228 on <03-15-11/1910:01>
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To the GMs out there: do you think a vampire PC is too overpowered to be allowed? And if you were trying to accommodate for someone playing a vampire how would you reign them in? The book itself even mentions the potential danger in having a vampire player so for a new GM, is this a bad idea? The quality that describes them is on 81RC and their base attributes are on 79RC
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I have a Nosferatu Gun-fu phys-ad, and it's not hard to reign in the balance for a HMVV PC..
Important points for a harmonious gaming group include:
-Ensure they have the 'Infertile Infected' negative quality, or else you'll have them infecting HMVV all over the place (even accidentally)
- Ensure they have a street doc contact handy with a steady supply of metahuman blood. Don't let the PC try to hide behind any 'I have to drink from every guard to survive' crap. This is Shadowrun, not Bram Stoker... and messy things like that will make the entire group hunted by association
- You need to find some reason why the PC fits into the group, WITHOUT being turned in to the local authorities for a 75k Vampire bounty at the first opportunity
- Make sure you enforce the requirement for Delta-grade Bio/Cyberware. This in itself really limits the augmentation options for a Vampire PC
- When using Mist Form, the PC changes, but their carried/worn equipment DOES NOT. So, if they want to sneak naked into a facility, all well and good. But their guns and armour (and clothes!) are on the outside...
- Regeneration is useless against Magical attacks (Spells, Killing Hands, Weapon Foci) and anything the PC is allergic to (Sun, Wood).
- Allergy Wood (Severe) is more of an issue than people think. While 99% of the word is now concrete and plastic, off things that get handled regularly are made of wood. Door handles, gun hilts etc etc. That's a box of damage per touch, unresisted, and can't be regenerated....
- Allergy Sun (moderate) is not something that can be averted with Sunscreen :P They need a full head-to-toe lightproof suit (or Security armour), neither of which are subtle enough to walk around day-to-day.
- The expensive BP cost of a Vampire (100) means a lot less spent on Attributes, skills and Cash resources. Combined with the Delta-ware bio/cyber requirement, this means that you can't sneak any big attribute/skill augmentations in either so the PC is going to be very much underpowered in terms of Dice pools compared to less expensive races... (I had some difficulty getting multiple attributes above 7, while the Ork Street Sam in the group currently enjoys several 10's and higher)...
- As an alternate character concept, the PC gets the Distinctive Style negative quality for free, at whatever rating you see fit for your campaign.... this is not a good thing when combined with a nice high bounty on your race.
- The nastiest Vampire requirement is the Essence Drain/Essence Loss issue (SR4A p.294). To clarify, this is not just some 1 bite = 1 essence transfer. It takes at least a minute per Essence point, and requires high-emotion on both sides (which is not going to be quiet).
Note: If the PC is a Magical archtype (Physical Adept, Mystical Adept, Magician etc), every month they lose a point of essence, which WILL reduce their magic rating by 1 (unless they've stocked up on Essence, which is possible). As such, Magically-active Vampires need to drain essence around every couple of months.....
So, there's a BRIEF list of the ways that Vampire PC's are both:
- Reigned in on dice-pools and power levels
- Day-to-Day limited in their interaction with the rest of the world
- Hunted forever, with that sweet GM clause saying 'I have very good reasons to have an Armed SWAT team bust down your door at any time. Don't mes with me' :o
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things that get handled regularly are made of wood. Door handles, gun hilts
I'm thinking back on the first dozen or so places that come to mind, and most door handles are cheap metal, most furniture is metal / plastic (more so in public areas, less so in more stylish / private locations) and gun handles only use wood when you pay for it or it's an antique. And while the floor, chairs, table, bookshelves and door I'm looking at right now are all wood, half of them are painted over. And one bookshelf is fake - laminate covering.
I can't imagine that would go backwards as you raise the amount of highly processed and non-organic products cheaply available. Sunlight is still a regular problem, but not something your average motorcycle protective gear couldn't handle. (with cameras / imagelink to prevent light filtering through a faceplate) Bullet holes are a problem, though.
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Charybdis mentioned some outstanding reasons the Vampire metavariant (or would it be called something else?) isn't grievously overpowered. However I'd like to add that ignoring this bit...
Don't let the PC try to hide behind any 'I have to drink from every guard to survive' crap. This is Shadowrun, not Bram Stoker... and messy things like that will make the entire group hunted by association.
and allowing the PC to feed and get all Blade-y during a run opens up a wonderful plot avenue. If you treat HMHVV like modern HIV/AIDS then the genetic markers of the virus are unique to the carrier. Meaning every corporate employee that your PC drains gives the Corp an easy roadmap to the vampire PCs' movements and activities.
They could sell that paydata to vampire hunters. Literally getting paid by the Mercenaries instead of the other way around. Not a bad deal for a corporation concerned with the bottom line.
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Regeneration also won't heal any damage done to the head or spinal cord. Explosions, as AoE hit the head and spine by default.
It will regen most drug-related drain though, so vampire killers on speed FTW.
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Explosions hit the whole body by default, the central nervous system is just there for the ride. Ruling that all explosions target the CNS is a bit gimmicky, and can bite you in the ass as a GM later. Better to just say that when the Chunky Salsa rule boosts damage past their BOD + damage capacity that it can't be regenerated (damage before soak, that is). This makes the hit nasty, and will keep them on their toes when the explosives do come out.
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- Allergy Sun (moderate) is not something that can be averted with Sunscreen :P They need a full head-to-toe lightproof suit (or Security armour), neither of which are subtle enough to walk around day-to-day.
Mage character can just get alleviate allergy spell and a sustaining focus to get around this problem.
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Mage character can just get alleviate allergy spell and a sustaining focus to get around this problem.
This is what people talk about when they say vampires are overpowered. I maintain that if your vampire doesn't fear the sun* then he isn't a vampire in any thematic way. He's just a powerful Awakened character, in which case you should probably just play a non-vampire mage. I know there are many others who would really like the Allergy: Sunlight to be something that isn't negated by such a minor thing as a sustaining focus. I prefer to claim that vampires have the Dietary Requirement: Lack of Sunlight Quality. A lack of sunlight must be absorbed through the skin via osmosis 24 hours a day.
My main issue with vamp PCs is the same one I have with dragon PCs. He becomes Poochie. You can say that your character's powers are negated by the fact that, if he is outed, he will be hunted down by powerful 6th World sources. In my experience, the player playing the vampire has no problem with this, as he is now the center of the story. It sucks for the rest of the players, who now have to be hijacked onto vamp PC's personal storylet, while any other runs or stories must be put on the back burner. It also means that any runs the GM might have planned ahead of time are negated, because the next several sessions, if not the whole game, are going to be vampire vs. the world.
What most GMs do is find some way to ignore the fact that the vampire is drinking blood from everyone and that he's walking around with a sustaining focus that every Tom, Dick and Watcher Spirit can identify as probably belonging to an Infected, so that the story he has planned will get played and that every player gets equal time. If this is the case, the weakness that comes from having to hide being a vampire is quickly ignored, as the player knows the GM won't enforce it. If that is the case, he is a little overpowered
If someone wanted to play a vampire in my game, it would have to be a player I trusted to both play well and play the character. He would also need a reason to want to play a vampire in the Sixth World, rather than wanting a character with better numbers than the base book gives. He would need to know something about the concept of the vampire as both a cultural theme and as it relates to Shadowrun. Most importantly, he must be willing to tell that story with me and with the other players, and not let Shadowrun turn into Vampire PC and his Scrawny Friends: A GM's Girlfriend/Mary Sue Tale.
*Yes, I know Dracula could walk into the sunlight, but he was very much weakened at night and therefore feared the sun, hence why Van Helsing and the suitor trio had to kill him before the sun went up. He was also a creature of the night, a theme that should be played out with characteristics.
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Mage character can just get alleviate allergy spell and a sustaining focus to get around this problem.
Considering the prevalence of background counts, mana barriers and wards, and the ease of disabling someone's sustaining focus, this leads to a lot of overconfident PC vampires doing a street performance interpretation of a Nuke-it Burger.
I don't think infected PCs are particularly overpowered if the rules that limit their abilities are enforced, but have to doubly agree with Fortinbras. Infected, shapeshifters, drakes, etc, are magnets for players who have a tendency to hijack games with their character's attention need. They are best allowed for players with whom the GM has already developed a gaming rapport.
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Regeneration also won't heal any damage done to the head or spinal cord. Explosions, as AoE hit the head and spine by default.
Is this a 4e ruling or a 3e holdover?
According to 4e Regeneration, any non-magical damage can be healed (including AoE explosions, greandes, C4 etc).
Also, even if a PC's damage track goes beyond body overflow (ie, normally complete death), a regenerating PC still gets to make a Regen test (Body plus Magic) to heal boxes first.
- If still overflow, they're dead
- If no longer overflow, they're alive and will keep regenerating back to full health
It will regen most drug-related drain though, so vampire killers on speed FTW.
Vampires have Immunity to toxins/pathogens (Rating = 2xMagic), so unless you have a very generous GM that defines combat drugs as something other than a toxin, in my experience combat drugs fail to affect vampires
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According to 4e Regeneration, any non-magical damage can be healed (including AoE explosions, greandes, C4 etc).
Not according to Running Wild.
Certain types of damage cannot be regenerated from this
power. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, from a
called shot to the head) cannot be healed this way. Likewise, magical
damage from weapon foci, combat spells, critter/adept powers,
or other magic may not be healed through Regeneration. If the
critter has an Allergy, the critter cannot regenerate damage until
the allergen’s presence is removed.
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According to 4e Regeneration, any non-magical damage can be healed (including AoE explosions, greandes, C4 etc).
Not according to Running Wild.
Certain types of damage cannot be regenerated from this power. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, from a called shot to the head) cannot be healed this way. ....
Fair enough. I stand corrected.
But does any stock standard explosion count as Brain/Spinal Cord damage? Hardly seems like an everyday grenade is as damaging as a called shot to the head....
I've seen read and studied many accounts of explosive/mine real world damage (family of paramedics and army doctors, with a lot of research lying around), and the most common injuries are to limbs and torso (with most fatalities due to organ failure, blood loss and/or shock). Specific damage to the brain/spinal cord in such instances is actually quite rare...
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And best represented by an overwhelming amount of damage boxes that the character can't regenerate enough from.
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And best represented by an overwhelming amount of damage boxes that the character can't regenerate enough from.
Completely concur....
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Vampires have Immunity to toxins/pathogens (Rating = 2xMagic), so unless you have a very generous GM that defines combat drugs as something other than a toxin, in my experience combat drugs fail to affect vampires
Drugs aren't in anyway toxins, nor are they pathogens.
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Can a vampire get drunk?
What if they drink off of an addict? "Go drain that guy hopped up on K-12. ... Great, now our Vampire is on K-12!"
If they sparkle, can we kill them with Willy-Pete?
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Vampires have Immunity to toxins/pathogens (Rating = 2xMagic), so unless you have a very generous GM that defines combat drugs as something other than a toxin, in my experience combat drugs fail to affect vampires
Drugs aren't in anyway toxins, nor are they pathogens.
Yeah, that's why people can OD from them, their non-toxicity. ;)
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Can a vampire get drunk?
Vampires become sick within the hour if they consume anything but blood, and they have particularly bad reactions to alcohol (treat as Nausea, p. 254).
ergo, no drunk Vampires.
Drugs aren't in anyway toxins, nor are they pathogens.
Jury's still out on that one, omae. Seen what Meth does to a person's body?
Definition of POISON
1 a : a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism
b (1) : something destructive or harmful (2) : an object of aversion or abhorrence
2: a substance that inhibits the activity of another substance or the course of a reaction or process <a catalyst poison>
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There is an SR definition for toxins. Drugs in SR are not toxins in SR.
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There is an SR definition for toxins. Drugs in SR are not toxins in SR.
THIS
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There is an SR definition for toxins. Drugs in SR are not toxins in SR.
THIS
+1 to both of you for having an in-Game quote for this...however there are grey areas in here, as for a definition it's hardly definitive (pun intended).
Detox
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: P • DV: (Toxin DV) – 4
Detox relieves the side effects of a drug or poison. The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the toxin’s base DV. A single net hit is sufficient to eliminate all symptoms. Detox does not heal or prevent damage done by toxins, but it eliminates any side effects they may have on the victim (dizziness, hallucinations, nausea, pain, and so forth). Detox is the hangover cure of choice among those who can afford it.
Please note both the drain test requirement, the first line advising it works on Drugs or Poisons, and the final line that it works on Alcohol.
[quote author =SR4A p.257]
Overdosing
Extreme amounts of anything can kill a metahuman. The exact point at which “a lot” becomes “too much” and causes toxicity varies, depending on the substance in question. It is the gamemaster’s call to decide when this point is reached and when to start applying additional damage to the character. As a general guideline, inflict an extra box of damage every (Body) doses.[/quote]
Emphasis mine.
So, we now have drugs acting as toxins, and doing boxes of damage?
If it sounds like a toxin, and acts like a toxin...? It's a duck? ;D
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AR p 73 But I wanna get high
Drug=Toxin with a power of 6. Especially mentions magically resistant characters
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but alcohol is a toxin. That's a real life poison that people voluntarily drink every day. The fact that it is very mild and can have, uh, enjoyable side effects causes this fact to be overlooked.
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- Allergy Sun (moderate) is not something that can be averted with Sunscreen :P They need a full head-to-toe lightproof suit (or Security armour), neither of which are subtle enough to walk around day-to-day.
Mage character can just get alleviate allergy spell and a sustaining focus to get around this problem.
A mage can only have a number of foci equal to his/her logic attribute. Sure vamps and nosferatu get a big bump to logic, but it's still a limited resource.
Gene treatments and Karma buy-offs are another matter. Find yourself a mad scientist and a sample of your old DNA, and a Nosferatu can pass as human and get his lost essence restored through Augmented Healing gene treatments.
At least according to the FAQ
Can cellular repair (p.88, Augmentation) regain Essence lost due to infection with HMHVV?
Yes.
Short and surly.
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Thanks guys for the responses. To throw my hand into the drugs vs. toxins debate: I think McMurray has it right. The first sentence of the passage that Makki quotes is "The Shadowrun rules treat drugs differently from toxins and
other chemicals." The situation where a drug counts as a power 6 toxin is when the drug is either taken against their will or they have some special resistance to it.
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No magical spell, genetic treatment, retroviral cocktail, or combination of the above has managed to halt or reverse the transformation once it has begun, and once complete it is impossible to alter the subject’s genetic code without the death of the subject.
Runner's Companion, p62 "The Cure for HMHVV"
The theory is that scientists realign qi from astral shadows by genetically remodeling DNA ...
Augmentation, p88 "Revitalisation"
How trustworthy is the FAQ?
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It's not alteration, it's restoration. ;)
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It's not that you're genetically deficient or degraded after getting a shiny new cyberlimb / essence drain / addiction and can have that original DNA restored - it's your soul, mana balance or whatever you call it that has been corrupted.
This is being corrected by altering your chi flow. How are they doing that? They're reorganising your DNA structure according to feng shui. (or whatever realigning your chi involves)
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Thanks guys for the responses. To throw my hand into the drugs vs. toxins debate: I think McMurray has it right. The first sentence of the passage that Makki quotes is "The Shadowrun rules treat drugs differently from toxins and
other chemicals." The situation where a drug counts as a power 6 toxin is when the drug is either taken against their will or they have some special resistance to it.
I'm pretty sure this would apply for ye olde vampires. Special Resistance being an immunity to toxins.... Drugs being identified as a toxin in most instances, would lead me to believe that unless you give a Vampire a concentrated drug dose (ie enough to take the power from 6 to 11 (which would beat the normal Immunity to toxin @(2x Magic), the vampire isn't going to notice...
It's kind of like drugging an elephant... you need to hit it with enough dosage to kill a normal human, but after that point it gets affected normally.
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How trustworthy is the FAQ?
Not very, there are multiple entries that platantly contradict the actual rule books.
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How trustworthy is the FAQ?
Not very, there are multiple entries that platantly contradict the actual rule books.
Such as?
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Quite possibly the biggest one is with Mystic Adepts where the text says, that splitting Magic among spellcasting and PPs only determines how many PPs worth of adept powers they can use and how many dice they receive for spellcasting, and that, meanwhile, the full magic attribute is used for all other purposes, including maximum power ratings.
The FAQ on the other hand says that the dice put aside for spellcasting determine max force and overcasting. This is a direct contradiction.
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Or their guidance for how to split dice pools, where skill specialties are treated as skill modifiers instead of dice pool modifiers?
SR4A, pg 68 explicitly defines specializations as dice pool modifiers, so that one's easy to put to bed.
As a general rule, I never use the FAQ due to the number of conflicts people have brought up. I'd rather banter a rules question out here in the forums.
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The FAQ on the other hand says that the dice put aside for spellcasting determine max force and overcasting. This is a direct contradiction.
Huh. That's how I've always done that anyway.
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The FAQ on the other hand says that the dice put aside for spellcasting determine max force and overcasting. This is a direct contradiction.
Thats not even the biggest contradiction of that entry, it also claims that the max level of any adept power is the amount of magic dedicated to adept powers, when the book very explicitly says that for max level of adept powers full magic rating is used.
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The FAQ on the other hand says that the dice put aside for spellcasting determine max force and overcasting. This is a direct contradiction.
Thats not even the biggest contradiction of that entry, it also claims that the max level of any adept power is the amount of magic dedicated to adept powers, when the book very explicitly says that for max level of adept powers full magic rating is used.
I think they're referring to Mystic adepts there, which seems like a fair call to me.
If someone has 6 Magic, 4 dedicated to Spellcasting, and 2 dedicated to Adept powers, then it seems pretty reasonable to limit the Adept powers to R2....
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The FAQ on the other hand says that the dice put aside for spellcasting determine max force and overcasting. This is a direct contradiction.
Thats not even the biggest contradiction of that entry, it also claims that the max level of any adept power is the amount of magic dedicated to adept powers, when the book very explicitly says that for max level of adept powers full magic rating is used.
I think they're referring to Mystic adepts there, which seems like a fair call to me.
If someone has 6 Magic, 4 dedicated to Spellcasting, and 2 dedicated to Adept powers, then it seems pretty reasonable to limit the Adept powers to R2....
Except that,as my post said, the book explicitly says that you use mystic adepts full magic rating as a limit to ratings of adept powers.
I have heard about this think called reading comprehension that is apparently pretty usefull when quoting posts in forums ;)
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I think they're referring to Mystic adepts there, which seems like a fair call to me.
If someone has 6 Magic, 4 dedicated to Spellcasting, and 2 dedicated to Adept powers, then it seems pretty reasonable to limit the Adept powers to R2....
Except that,as my post said, the book explicitly says that you use mystic adepts full magic rating as a limit to ratings of adept powers.
I have heard about this think called reading comprehension that is apparently pretty usefull when quoting posts in forums ;)
Point taken, (smart-@$$) :P
Further point to be taken though, is when correcting someone on reading comprehension, using the word 'think' instead of 'thing' somewhat weakens your moral high ground... As does inappropriate spelling of 'useful'. ::)
And not having my rulebooks to quote from has me at a distinct disadvantage on such technicalities.... damned work intruding on my gaming life!
Back to point, though. If the above quote on Magic rating had been in an Errata listing, instead of the FAQ wouldn't your argument now be null and void?
Ergo, is your concern merely the fact that the FAQ is being used for Dev's to also place Errata?
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Back to point, though. If the above quote on Magic rating had been in an Errata listing, instead of the FAQ wouldn't your argument now be null and void?
Ergo, is your concern merely the fact that the FAQ is being used for Dev's to also place Errata?
No, my problem is that the faq has many contradictions like that, none of witch have been changed in the newer printings of the books.
Meaning their not errata but merely faq writer answering questions using his own house rules, making the faq totally useless.
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I'm with Max on this, if the FAQ were to be considered an Errata, at a minimum, it should have a clear statement saying that the FAQ takes precedence. Further, I would expect them to cite the passage they're contradicting and state that the FAQ supersedes that section.
I've never seen an errata not state what it does or doesn't change, and how. Also, the official "errata" is now the errata forum, from what I understand reading the blue-name texts in that forum.
But, that's really a discussion for a separate thread, what with this one being about vampires as PCs. :-X
Don't know that I have much useful (I checked, correct spelling) to add to that conversation, though. I don't like any of the big BP character options.
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Infected PCs makes as much sense to me as the vampire romance genre. We are food to them, I fail to see why non infected PCs would endanger themselves with being infected or eaten, not to mention the social stigma of associating with them, but I guess some folk want to play Vampire: The Shadowrun.
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Infected PCs makes as much sense to me as the vampire romance genre. We are food to them, I fail to see why non infected PCs would endanger themselves with being infected or eaten, not to mention the social stigma of associating with them, but I guess some folk want to play Vampire: The Shadowrun.
I generally concur with this issue. Which is why I insist that any Infected PC's in my games take the 'Infertile Infected' quality, so as to avoid the Infection issue at least.
The association and dietary requirements though? Well, that needs some further fleshing out on a case-by-case basis (pardon the pun :))
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My new campaign has vampire character played by a rookie PC. He gets turned at start of adventure then his sister, runner, & friends come to rescue. I am having a great time running this group and find the vampire the funnest to have in game. The learning curve of becoming a bloodsucker is harsh. Espically when the PC and the character are green and are having to prove themselves continuously.
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Any Vampire in my group that starts Sparkling gets killed.
There will be no explanation. Just. Very. Dead.
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Any Vampire in my group that starts Sparkling gets killed.
There will be no explanation. Just. Very. Dead.
another huge fan of the twilight series. lol
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I have to go with what Ozzy says: "Vampires are f***in' pussies! I'm the Prince of F***ing Darkness!" :P
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I have to go with what Ozzy says: "Vampires are f***in' pussies! I'm the Prince of F***ing Darkness!" :P
Does this prince of darkness sparkle in the sun too like the cuddly infested vampires? Whats next infested care bears? lol
Sparkly vampires was a huge let down for the twilight series, that I agree with. I am not very fond of the way vampires are done in shadowrun, to be honest.
It sucks seeing Ozzie to the point of barely being able to remember his own name these days.
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Whats next infested care bears? lol
*cough* Drop Bears *cough*
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Whats next infested care bears? lol
*cough* Drop Bears *cough*
I was waiting to see someone mention them. But, they don't shoot beams of light from their belly. Hence, not carebears.
I suppose you could use the Toxic rules to give them Elemental Attack (Radiation), emanating from their torso... Then you have Toxic-Infected Care Bears!
Someone is going to hurt me for providing the RAW for infected care bears, but it's funny.
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Whats next infested care bears? lol
*cough* Drop Bears *cough*
I was waiting to see someone mention them. But, they don't shoot beams of light from their belly. Hence, not carebears.
I suppose you could use the Toxic rules to give them Elemental Attack (Radiation), emanating from their torso... Then you have Toxic-Infected Care Bears!
Someone is going to hurt me for providing the RAW for infected care bears, but it's funny.
No hurt from me.
In fact, +1 for RAW on HMVV Mutant Care Bears.... how can this be bad? 8)
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Keep in mind that you would need to choose an additional toxic power to complete the "Toxic critter template", as each toxic critter gets two toxic powers (Running Wild, pg. 165). However, the secondary power might be best to vary, evil-carebear to evil-carebear, much the way the originals' abilities were different. If I remember my childhood correctly.
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Keep in mind that you would need to choose an additional toxic power to complete the "Toxic critter template", as each toxic critter gets two toxic powers (Running Wild, pg. 165). However, the secondary power might be best to vary, evil-carebear to evil-carebear, much the way the originals' abilities were different. If I remember my childhood correctly.
These are more like the 'I-Don't-Care-bears'
Very grumpy little bitches...
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They care, they care very much. About spreading a plague to all the world.
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They care, they care very much. About spreading a plague to all the world.
I don't think they would, actually.
Koalas are by nature have a very chilled 'don't mess with me, and I won't scratch your face off' mentality.
Seeing as Drop bears are only HMVV carriers, but still feed just on Eucalyptus leaves (not metahuman flesh or Essence, like vampires etc), I can't see why their mentality would change in this regard.
Even a Toxic version would likely be uncaring about spreading plague...that would just be a by-product of it sitting in its tree, stoned out on Eucalyptus fumes ;)
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Even a Toxic version would likely be uncaring about spreading plague...that would just be a by-product of it sitting in its tree, stoned out on Eucalyptus fumes ;)
For clarity's sake, I must say toxic eucalyptus fumes. And besides, they are "drop bears", which are known for, well, dropping on people and eating them.
They are omnivorous, eating eucalyptus like ordinary koalas but also the flesh of animals. They don't hunt their prey, but they wait for it to come to them. Once a suitable victim appears underneath the branches of the tree the drop bear inhabits, it drops down and attacks with its claws.
To be fair, they sound lazy, but that doesn't mean they don't care. ;D
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IIRC, eucalypt leaves are fairly inefficient in terms of energy and nourishment, and adaptation to that is what makes koalas sluggish. I could only imagine drop bears being more active than that after digesting a good meal.
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To be fair, they sound lazy, but that doesn't mean they don't care. ;D
Lazy, but prone to spontaneous fits of opportunistic violence. They really are Australian :o
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What have I done with my infected care bears reference? It was like trying to put out a fire with gasoline. lol
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These are more like the 'I-Don't-Care-bears'
Very grumpy little bitches...
More like the intensive-care-bears
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What have I done with my infected care bears reference? It was like trying to put out a fire with gasoline. lol
Bweare the drop-bear I-don't-care-bear stare.... it will be the last thing you see before waking up in intensive care.....
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Can a Vampire learns a new critters power? If yes, how much karma will be spent this way?
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I would say that a Vampire cannot learn any Critter powers other than those provided on the Template. If they want more power, they need to take the Magician Quality and learn spells.
I also would not let a vampire (if someone wanted to run one) get away with anything except fresh blood. What they're really feeding on is the Essence; the blood is merely a medium of transfer. Which also disallows high-tech cures; vampires lose Essence and can only replace it by taking it from others.
Vampirism is supposed to be a curse, not a set of cool powers you pay points for. You get some powers, yes; but in general, you pay far more than what those powers are truly worth. Or at least you should.
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I also would not let a vampire (if someone wanted to run one) get away with anything except fresh blood. What they're really feeding on is the Essence; the blood is merely a medium of transfer. Which also disallows high-tech cures; vampires lose Essence and can only replace it by taking it from others.
Vampirism is supposed to be a curse, not a set of cool powers you pay points for. You get some powers, yes; but in general, you pay far more than what those powers are truly worth. Or at least you should.
The dietary requirement is listed separately from the Essence requirement. Personally, I'd say that they need just plain ol' blood to keep from physically starving to death far more often than they need Essence, just due to nutritional considerations. "Bagged" blood would serve for the former purpose but, of course, do nothing for the latter.
Also, Vampirisim isn't a CURSE, it's a a VIRUS. It has nothing to do with the Wrath of God or Eternal Evil or any of that drek. If someone manages to turn it around so it works in their favor, more power to 'em.
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Also, Vampirisim isn't a CURSE, it's a a VIRUS. It has nothing to do with the Wrath of God or Eternal Evil or any of that drek. If someone manages to turn it around so it works in their favor, more power to 'em.
That...comes down to your interpretation of the rules and fluff. I've often taken the pseudo-scientific "HMVV" stuff with a grain of salt -- because trying to categorize and make sense of things beyond our ken is what humans do -- personally. That we've chosen to call it a disease shouldn't necessarily take all the flavor and mystery out of it. If a given player and GM wants it to just be a clinical disease that doesn't change your mindset at all, they're welcome to do so. If others would prefer to interpret as us desperately slapping medical labels onto a fundamentally magical (and unpredictable) process...well...I think that's a valid reading of the source material, too.
What works for one campaign might not work for another, but that doesn't mean either one's "doing it wrong" or anything.
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That...comes down to your interpretation of the rules and fluff.
The fact that disease-resistance Bioware DOES help against it, per RAW, is a pretty explicit indication that the label "Metagenetic Virus"... which, really, is just the Science Talk way of saying "Magical Virus"... is pretty accurate.
Both the rules for how it spreads and a Prima Facie reading* of the fluff both strongly support the idea that, according to "baseline" canon, it is a virus. If someone wants to go and declare that HMHVV is bogus for their game, though, more power to 'em. Their game, their call and all that.
*That is to say, one without the assumption of a potentially flawed narration... aka, without that "grain of salt".
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In our campaign, to be a vampire is a great problem, but not a curse. Its a bad thing but with some interesting consequences. Its a player option, so it cant be totally useless.
But one of our discussions is if a vampire ( or another type of PC critter ) can learn others powers. Something like discover others possibilities without to be forced to take a awakened quality (magician or something like that ). I confess I'm totally lost. Like a GM i think any critter can evolve in some fashion but i need more opinions. At first, I was wondering if 10 karma points will be enough but im afraid that this option ( learn powers ) is completely absurd. None of the books help me in my search for answers.
Thanks for any help
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But one of our discussions is if a vampire ( or another type of PC critter ) can learn others powers. ... At first, I was wondering if 10 karma points will be enough but I'm afraid that this option ( learn powers ) is completely absurd. None of the books help me in my search for answers.
I'd really say "no" if I were in your shoes.
The Critter Powers are mostly there for defining things about a particular (sub-)species that are radically different than a baseline human in ways that can't be expressed merely with adjusting stat caps. Having a Vampire learn other powers would be like having a Frog suddenly learn to fly.
That said, if you want to go through with it, I'd suggest assigning the Karma price on a Power by Power basis... and probably make him have to "eat" someone/something that already has that power, on top of the Karma.
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But one of our discussions is if a vampire ( or another type of PC critter ) can learn others powers. ... At first, I was wondering if 10 karma points will be enough but I'm afraid that this option ( learn powers ) is completely absurd. None of the books help me in my search for answers.
I'd really say "no" if I were in your shoes.
The Critter Powers are mostly there for defining things about a particular (sub-)species that are radically different than a baseline human in ways that can't be expressed merely with adjusting stat caps. Having a Vampire learn other powers would be like having a Frog suddenly learn to fly.
That said, if you want to go through with it, I'd suggest assigning the Karma price on a Power by Power basis... and probably make him have to "eat" someone/something that already has that power, on top of the Karma.
Thanks a lot. The "eat option" is very atractive, but the "no option" is what the rules do
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Thanks a lot. The "eat option" is very attractive, but the "no option" is what the rules do
Oh, also, if you want to go that route (and I can't say it wouldn't be cool, but the pricing would be the devil to keep balanced!) I'd probably either limit it to 'non-structural' Critter Powers or make it so that the PC mutates visibly after gaining a power that has physical impact. ;D
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Thanks a lot. The "eat option" is very attractive, but the "no option" is what the rules do
Oh, also, if you want to go that route (and I can't say it wouldn't be cool, but the pricing would be the devil to keep balanced!) I'd probably either limit it to 'non-structural' Critter Powers or make it so that the PC mutates visibly after gaining a power that has physical impact. ;D
Its a incredible way to evolve vampires. I can create a list of valid powers to prevent unballanced options. Thanks dude! This will work perfectly!!! :D
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In our campaign, to be a vampire is a great problem, but not a curse. Its a bad thing but with some interesting consequences. Its a player option, so it cant be totally useless.
Infected (other than Ghoul) is pretty much the only thing I ban outright from a game I run, but that's something I hold to from SR3 when the rules themselves pretty much straight up said that Ghouls are the only PC-playable Infected type.
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In our campaign, to be a vampire is a great problem, but not a curse. Its a bad thing but with some interesting consequences. Its a player option, so it cant be totally useless.
Infected (other than Ghoul) is pretty much the only thing I ban outright from a game I run, but that's something I hold to from SR3 when the rules themselves pretty much straight up said that Ghouls are the only PC-playable Infected type.
>.> you might want to take a look at what happens when you do a Karma Ghoul build.... obviously metatypes don't cost any Karma so for the price of the quality that turns you into a Ghoul you get like.... 9 body, and 7 str? Something like that.... rediculous! xD My friend who's going to make a character likes to make the joke.
(eating something out of a bag)
Shadowrunner1: what are you eating?
Him: Butterfingers. (Grins evily)
Shadowrunner1: o.O'
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In our campaign, to be a vampire is a great problem, but not a curse. Its a bad thing but with some interesting consequences. Its a player option, so it cant be totally useless.
Infected (other than Ghoul) is pretty much the only thing I ban outright from a game I run, but that's something I hold to from SR3 when the rules themselves pretty much straight up said that Ghouls are the only PC-playable Infected type.
You should quit holding on to this old stereotype. The infected have their own problems, sure, but theyre not broken.
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I can remember Bull posting some house rules for PC vamps that made them a lot like adepts, basically initiating their vampirism to gain power points towards new abilities (upgrading Regen, taking Mist Form, Thermo vision), but also adding some new ones (Claws, etc). It worked fairly well for 3rd ed. This was years and YEARS ago, mind you.
If you want a variant Vampire, remember that Infection often activates recessive genes, meaning sleeper Mages and Changeling traits may manifest at the time of Infection. Gaining new powers after that seems... risky to me. You'd start to have a Legacy of Kain kind of thing, or Diablerie from Vampire: The Masquerade. It's a fun notion, and if you want to house rule it, go for it, but I'd say that's definitely outside the existing canon. After all, it would mean Martin deVries should have the Fear ability of a Banshee, for example.
If you want a rules-worthy compromise, you could just have them specify spells or adept powers that match the legend they are going for. For something that is house-ruled, perhaps gain new powers akin to how a Free Spirit might. You might devote power points/Magic ranks towards new abilities instead, or create a new attribute to reflect Infection and limit available powers to those you deem appropriate.
For what it's worth, I've played a vampire for years, and have had several in and out of groups I've played with and run, along with shapeshifters and more. If you really play it out, and have a GM who understands how to play to the strengths and weaknesses of everyone in the group, you'll have no problems at all. Point in fact: The Mage Vampire of the group rarely pulls moves so dramatically bad@$$ as the Street Sam/Rigger, nor gets so many kills as the Weapons Specialist. It's all about players. As said above, if you trust the player, you can likely trust them with any character and rest easy they will help you tell an amazing story. If you don't trust them with the responsibility, don't allow it. :)
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I was using curse in the more generic 'it's not a fun thing to have' sense rather than the 'you're doomed' sense.
Yes, vampIrism (in shadowrun) is caused by a virus. It turns you into a being that has to feed on living, sapient beings to survive. (Even ghouls don't have it THAT bad.) This should not be an uber-cool experience. Yes, they are playable (although I've never had a player who wanted to play one). Yes, they get interesting, useful abilities. But there's more to them than a collection of points, pluses and minuses (or at least there should be, imho).
If a vampire wants to drink blood not connected to a living being with Essence, I'd have no problem; and it's a valid point that perhaps vampires require physical sustenance as well as Essence to survive.
As a previous poster noted, the power developed by Vampires are inherent in the virus; in order to have different powers, one would need to be infected by a variant of that virus. This is certainly possible; but I don't think that the disease would allow changes after the fact.
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There's also the problem that you have Patrick Goodman trying to kill the PC. :P
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It turns you into a being that has to feed on living, sapient beings to survive. (Even ghouls don't have it THAT bad.) This should not be an uber-cool experience.
Why not? Sure, if you freshly change into a vampire, you will have morals and lots of problems adapting. That's what you probably are referring to.
But you get used to it and after 5, 10, 20 years of continually feeding on living people, your morals are gone. You won't even think about it, you'll just do it, because that's your way of living.
And that's the point where it indeed starts to get uber-cool, and i don't have problems with players playing vampires that were already around for a couple of years. Fresh vampires are not shadowrunning material and will have too many mental issues about their new self.
But i wouldn't let a vampire learn any other powers than given. Adept and mage qualities should cover all things necessary.
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Even if a vampire remains a white hat 20 years later (which I could see, especially if he was previouslt a priest, monk, humanitarian, etc.), the trouble of finding food is an interesting experience. Does he get in bed with organleggers or slavers and just try to minimize his involvement? Or cherry pick enemies or willing targets and risk starving for his morals?
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Even if a vampire remains a white hat 20 years later (which I could see, especially if he was previouslt a priest, monk, humanitarian, etc.), the trouble of finding food is an interesting experience. Does he get in bed with organleggers or slavers and just try to minimize his involvement? Or cherry pick enemies or willing targets and risk starving for his morals?
Live off Vampires who have already fed?
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That's DeVries' option of choice. ;)
Personally, I fostered contacts among the penal system and the like, found convicted murderers and rapists on death row, and got some time with them in an isolated location. I'd drain them down to 1 Essence, then let them move along to their well-earned execution. I also took the time to Mind Probe them to find out if I was about to drain an innocent person wrongly accused, or siphon from an already-black soul.
For day-to-day blood, I made friends with DocWagon, street docs and so on for blood packs. Made my Lifestyle more expensive, but that's the smallest of prices to pay for a character with Regen and so on.
I doubt most Vampires go to such lengths, but I felt relatively guilt-free. No propagation of the infection, no innocents harmed.
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I doubt most Vampires go to such lengths, but I felt relatively guilt-free. No propagation of the infection, no innocents harmed.
These days, you just have to take Infertile Infected... which is actually a -5BP (-10BP if you have the Infection power) Negative Quality. Makes you safe to be around, and they pay you for it. ;)
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I always enjoyed the moral dilemma. The piece I wrote for Boyle had the Vampire narrator feeling the urge to infect a victim. It's a potent and dizzying as anything sexual or addiction-related. And its not like you have any special hold on those you infect, so making spawn is really more of a problem than anything else, since they're just as likely to come after you for vengeance. ;)
That being said, you're quite right, Infertile makes things much simpler, in general.