[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The wireless Matrix of SR5 is set up to basically allow any two devices to talk to one another.  An analogue of a real-life style cell tower isn't strictly necessary to serve as an intermediary.  Rules mechanics-wise, it has Noise as an omnipresent concern that potentially hinders functionality.  So while cell tower analogues aren't technically necessary, their presence appears to be presumed as a dearth of Matrix infrastructure manifests as a game effect in the form of Noise (specifically, Static).

So this means a Rigger Jumped In to a rigged vehicle suffers penalties for uncompensated Noise if he's physically inside an environment with Noise (Downtown Spam zone, etc) just as a Hacker would while attempting to look through someone's Commlink would. 

What happens if part of the equation involves wireless-off?  Obviously a direct connection/data tap is required, so for the sake of discussion they're presumed to be in play.  If a Rigger is jacked directly into a vehicle and running fully silent with everything wireless turned off, is that mechanically the same thing as driving through the most god-forsaken part of the globe where there is no Matrix connectivity at all (represented as a -8 dice due to noise)?  If a Decker has his cyberdeck wireless off and directly connected to another wireless-off device, wouldn't it be the same scenario of trying to hack someone when the both of you are inside a Farraday Cage and completely shut off from the Matrix at large?  Penalty or no penalty in this sort of scenario where the matrix infrastructure normally presumed to be in play for matrix actions is unavailable?

[Xenon]

Not sure I understand your question correctly, but if the rigger use a wireless connection to the vehicle he is controlling then Noise will apply, this is exact reason why many riggers rather establish a direct connection (attaching the retractable cable from his control rig to the rigger interface installed in the vehicle). The drawback of using a direct connection is that you physically need to be inside/near the vehicle... It doesn't matter if the device you are physically directly connected to is wireless enabled or not. The same goes for Deckers (and Technomancers with a Skinlink echo).


You are also considered directly connected to all devices that are slaved to a host as long as you are inside the host (Hosts only exists within the matrix so in order for a device to be slaved to one it have to be wireless enabled).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It's a question about how the matrix "works", really.

I understand that you don't need the analogue of routers/switches/cell towers in order to make a connection with your target device.  Even without a direct connection you can still connect wirelessly in a "direct" sense of sorts.. where my matrix traffic is just bouncing back and forth wirelessly but directly between my device and yours.  But while they're not technically necessary they're still presumed to be in use, as their absence is recognized to cause a penalty in the form of Noise (Static from poor matrix reception).

May be best to boil it down to the simplest scenario:  You and I are inside a Faraday cage.  We're absolutely cut off from the rest of the world in a wireless sense.  I want to hack your commlink.  What, if any, penalties should I have for having no matrix reception whatsoever?  It would seem to me that if there's no penalty for having no connection to matrix infrastructure at large outside the Faraday cage, why do penalties ever exist for having poor matrix reception?

Once that question is resolved, then you can shift the example to a Rigger driving a vehicle where everything has been turned wireless-off.  Back in earlier editions, there was lore about Rigged Panzers running "the Autobahn" through the Rockies under full EMCON.  It helped them to be very hard to detect, sure.  But with complete radio blackout they were literally flying blind, and had to basically do a reenactment of that scene from Hunt for the Red October of navigating the trench via map and stopwatch, only at supersonic speeds!  Of course on a meta sense that was several editions ago, and more importantly on an in-universe sense it's a literally different Matrix nowadays.  I'd expect that if a Rigger is jumped in to a vehicle tooling around under full EMCON (all wireless off) it'd be the same kind of scenario.  Perhaps with the added advantages of not being literally blind by virtue of passive visual sensors.  But would or should passive video all by itself offer the same circumstances as accepting data updates from Gridlink, TheWeatherApp, and etc?  If not what's the best way to represent the degraded performance of performing the Control Device Matrix Action to drive the vehicle under such matrix reception-starved circumstances?

Edit:  I suppose there's also the argument to be had that there's no reason to presume that passive video cameras even are hardwired to the rest of the car.  It's the wireless world in 2079, and it stands to reason the vehicles sensors all talk to each other and the car's computers via wirelessly by default... and going full wireless off while in VR literally could or should make you blind while you're driving...

[Xenon]

We're absolutely cut off from the rest of the world in a wireless sense.  I want to hack your commlink.

A, now I get what you are fishing for.

What you are asking for is not possible.

The Decker need to form his persona on his cyberdeck and his cyberdeck must be wireless enabled and connected to the matrix. If the Decker is not connected to the matrix then he cannot execute any Matrix Actions.

The target device doesn't need to be wireless enabled in order to be hacked. You can just connect a wireless enabled data tap to it and then hack it wireless from the other side of the world (if you can handle the noise). Or connect a cable to your wireless enabled cyberdeck and get a direct connection.

...but your cyberdeck need to be wireless enabled. Your persona need to exist on a grid in the matrix.

Hacking a device with a direct connection will still cause overwatch score (among other things).

Once that question is resolved, then you can shift the example to a Rigger driving a vehicle where everything has been turned wireless-off.

In order to use the Matrix Action Jump into Rigged Device the Rigger would need to first form his persona on his RCC and his RCC must be wireless enabled and connected to the matrix. If the Rigger is not connected to the matrix then he cannot execute any Matrix Actions. This would be a typical scenario for a Drone Rigger.

Normally the drones would be wireless enabled (but perhaps running silent). The Rigger in this case would form a persona on his RCC, using matrix attributes of the RCC. While jumped into a drone any matrix damage taken would be soaked by the RCC (and not the drone).


However, you can also use a non-matrix action to jump into a vehicle (briefly described at p. 167, among all the other non-matrix actions you can take). This can only be done while directly connected with a cable directly from your control rig to the rigger interface installed in your vehicle This can either be done wireless via your control rig (which have a sim module and can emulate DNI) as a complex action (Rigger Jump In from p. 167) or as a simple action if you are directly connected with a cable directly from your control rig to the rigger interface installed in your vehicle (p. 266 If you’re using a direct connection and already plugged into the vehicle ... you can jump into a vehicle directly from your meat body by taking a Simple Action). This non-matrix action can be taken directly from your meat body. This would be a typical scenario for a Vehicle Rigger.

Normally the vehicle would be wireless enabled and the Rigger in this case would form a persona directly on the vehicle, using matrix attributes of the vehicle. Any matrix damage taken would be soaked by the vehicle.

If not what's the best way to represent the degraded performance of performing the Control Device Matrix Action to drive the vehicle under such matrix reception-starved circumstances?

You cannot take the Control Device Matrix Action unless you are connected to the Matrix.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A, now I get what you are fishing for.

What you are asking for is not possible.

K, I'm on the same page with you I think.  My problem is reconciling what firebug said over in the thread that spawned this spinoff thread.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding her context, and that she was only referring to the vehicle being wireless-off and not the Rigger as well.

[Xenon]

The book doesn't really go into what you can and cannot do if you turn wireless OFF in your commlink / cyberdeck / rcc (or if you try to use Matrix Actions while inside a Faraday cage). What it does say is that Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix. That you need to use AR, cold-sim or hot-sim VR to use Matrix Actions. The book pretty much assume that you are using a commlink / cyberdeck / rcc that is wireless ON and with that connected to the Matrix as a whole. As far as I can tell, even when you use it to access a throwback device with a physical cable.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...However, you can also use a non-matrix action to jump into a vehicle (briefly described at p. 167, among all the other non-matrix actions you can take). This can only be done while directly connected with a cable directly from your control rig to the rigger interface installed in your vehicle. This non-matrix action can be taken directly from your meat body. This would be a typical scenario for a Vehicle Rigger...

...You cannot take the Control Device Matrix Action unless you are connected to the Matrix...

Hold on.  Maybe I'm homing in on what's confusing me here.  You're saying the Rigger Jump-In as described on page 167 is a fundamentally different action than the Jump-In action described on 241?  If you direct connect to the vehicle and jump-in directly in it's not a matrix action?  Pilot vehicle skill uses under this circumstance are also presumably not Control Device matrix actions, and therefore not subject to Noise?

[Xenon]

Normally you form your persona (log into a Grid and the matrix as a whole) on your comlink / cyberdeck / rcc (this is the Change Device action which is obviously not a matrix action since you are not logged into the matrix yet) and then take the matrix action Jump Into Rigged Device. Either remotely over the matrix (noise) or directly by cabel between your rcc and the vehicle (no noise). The vehicle icon will merge into your persona. You will use your comlink / cyberdeck / rcc attributes. It is also this device that soak matrix damage. You use the Switch Interface Mode matrix action to jump out. This will separate your persona from the vehicle. If you have multiple rigger devices slaved to a rcc you can jump between them directly (you get a smoother connection).

In addition to this you also have the option to form your persona (log into a Grid and the matrix asa whole) by using your vehicle. Almost like using the vechicle as your comlink / cyberdeck / rcc. It take a complex action unless you are already connected with a wire between your control rig and the vehicle, then it is a simple action (this is the Rigger Jump in action that is not a matrix action since you are not logged into the matrix yet). You will use matrix attributes of your vehicle when forming your persona in this way. And matrix damage will be soaked by your vehicle. Normally vechicles have pretty low ratings so, unless you are in a space shuttle you might want to connect via your comlink or rcc.

Rules that you can form your persona on rcc and then jump in or form it directly on the vechicle are a bit spread out but Matrix Damage on page 266 is good place to start.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Alright, that you can use a rigged vehicle as your persona-generating device to connect to the matrix is a novel concept to me... I'll have to read up on it as you suggest.

So an example to synthesize what this means: Rigger is jumped in to a souped up Ford Americar without a commlink/rcc.  Someone points a directional jammer rating 6 at the Americar and pulls the trigger.  Civilian cars are DR2, and unless the Rigger has 3+ more points of Noise Reduction he just got dump-shocked (due to being in VR is a necessity to have been jumped in in the first place)?

To clarify in my own mind: whether using a RCC/Commlink or not.. when directly connected to the vehicle the skills involving using that vehicle are Matrix actions, yes?  While there's no distance based noise due to the direct cable connection, other forms of Noise based on Static/Jamming and Spam still penalize the Piloting/Gunnery tests if uncompensated by Noise Reduction because they affect all Matrix actions, yes?

[Iron Serpent Prince]

The idea that Matrix Actions require Matrix connection is asinine.  That being said, there are actions that do not work as well without Matrix connection - Matrix Search, for example.

The idea that you cannot take notes on your commlink (Edit File) without a Matrix connection is very hard to swallow, and would be a prime example of why everyone should avoid 5e like a plague.

Making that ruling in your home game would also completely negate the rules (and bonuses) for direct connection as well.  Either you can bypass wireless use to isolate your target, or you must have connection to the matrix.  Can't have it both ways.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The idea that Matrix Actions require Matrix connection is asinine.  That being said, there are actions that do not work as well without Matrix connection - Matrix Search, for example.

The idea that you cannot take notes on your commlink (Edit File) without a Matrix connection is very hard to swallow, and would be a prime example of why everyone should avoid 5e like a plague.

Well there's no reason to presume that the chip/macguffin that physically hosts the data relevant to your file is physically inside your commlink.  Matrix 2.0 is the future of Cloud computing... your files "on your commlink" are in all probability physically storing 1s and 0s on multiple/redundant servers in data farms run by Renraku, the Yakuza, or gods know who.  See the relevance of the Nuke-From-Orbit program in Data Trails in how it is distinct from simply using the Edit File program to delete a file without using that program.  So yes, I'd expect that you can't perform the Edit File matrix action "on your own commlink" without an active matrix connection.  With wireless off you can't talk to your OneDrive/Cloud/the Matrix.

Making that ruling in your home game would also completely negate the rules (and bonuses) for direct connection as well.  Either you can bypass wireless use to isolate your target, or you must have connection to the matrix.  Can't have it both ways.

Honestly I think it only gets confusing if you step away from the strict binary rule of "You must be on the Matrix to perform Matrix Actions".  Once you start saying some Matrix actions can be done without the Matrix you inevitably get into headscratching "well what about..."s.

Edit: Actually I found a rules citation that makes me pretty sure this is exactly how it is by RAW, as opposed to me being out on a limb:

As you’ve no doubt guessed from the name, Matrix
actions are only available in the Matrix.

Xenon's reading is very intriguing to me, in saying that being Jumped In (and presumably, driving said vehicle) might not necessarily be Matrix Actions in the first place.

[Xenon]

You are not disconnected from the matrix just because you suffer high noise. High noise is mostly just "higher latency". This will make it hard to play online shooters. This will make it hard to remote control a vehicle. This will make it hard to hack a Host. And it does not disconnect you from the matrix. You can still Send Messages to your drones and you can still defend against matrix attacks just fine.

SR5 p. 230 Noise:
It may seem as if traffic in the Matrix is instantaneous, but ask anyone who has played an online game with someone a few continents away—there is a noticeable delay compared to playing someone next door. When decisions are being made in the blink of an eye, every speed difference matters. The farther you are away from an icon in real life, the harder it is to communicate with it, whether your intentions are harmful or benign.

What I think you might be confused by are *Wireless Bonuses*... Basically they are some extra bonuses you can get if you connect wireless to your devices as long as you have a very fast wireless connection (think of if as if wireless connections in the world of SR5 have higher bandwidth / faster connection than wired connections). Now... if there is too much noise. Too much latency. Then you don't get the "high speed premium wifi" wireless bonus.

This is explained in the Wireless Bonuses chapter at SR5 p. 421 When they type wireless functionality in this chapter they are talking about the *wireless bonus* functionality and nothing else. Aaron clarified that this was RAI in this very forum back in 2014.

SR5 p. 421 Wireless Bonuses: If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).

Even if you use RAW and interpret the wireless functionality in the wireless bonus chapter as if low device ratings would not only lose their wireless bonuses but actually get fully disconnected from the matrix... it still doesn't affect the rigger in your example as long as he use a direct connection between his control rig and the vehicle;

SR5 p. 232 Direct Connections: When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid.

SR5 p. 266 Noise and Rigging: If you’re rigging via wireless, all of your actions suffer
from a Noise penalty (see p. 230). If you’re using a direct connection, you don’t have to worry about Noise at all. A rigger’s data cable gets a lot of use for this reason.

when directly connected to the vehicle the skills involving using that vehicle are Matrix actions, yes?

The only actions you need to take when the Auto Pilot is in control are Send Message and/or Speak/Text/Transmit Phrase. You are not really taking any actions at all when the auto pilot is in control, the pilot is. There is no test involved in Send Message or Speak/Text/Transmit Phrase. You are not affected by noise when just using Send Message or Speak/Text/Transmit Phrase. The pilot program it self is running locally in the drone and is not affected by noise.

When you are manually controlling a vehicle you are using Vehicle Actions. Vehicle Actions include Vehicle Control tests, Gunnery tests and Sensor tests. You are not affected by matrix noise when manually controlling a vehicle.

You are using Matrix Actions when you are remote controlling a vehicle (mostly Control Device). Your actions are limited by the normal attribute or the data processing matrix attribute of the device you first formed your persona on, whichever is lowest. You are affected by noise when remote controlling a vehicle.

When you are jumped in with a control rig you are also using Vehicle Actions, but when jumped in you get to treat vehicle actions like matrix actions. For example, your vehicle actions get a positive dice pool modifier for hot-sim. You are affected by noise if you jumped in via remote and not affected by noise if you connect directly.

The idea that Matrix Actions require Matrix connection is asinine.

SR5 p. 237 Matrix Actions
Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix.

Xenon's reading is very intriguing to me, in saying that being Jumped In (and presumably, driving said vehicle) might not necessarily be Matrix Actions in the first place.

"Logging into the matrix" is not a matrix action (you are not logged into the matrix yet, you need to be connected to the matrix to perform matrix actions). You can form your persona on a commlink, cyberdeck, rcc (with the Change Device Mode action) or by directly jumping into a vehicle with a rigger interface (with the Rigger Jump In action).

If a decker with a control rig want to jump into a hostile drone with his persona formed on his cyberdeck he need 3 marks and take the Matrix Action Jump Into Rigged Device.

If a rigger want to jump into one of his drones with his persona formed on his commlink or RCC then he need to take the Matrix Action Jump Into Rigged Device.

Vehicle Actions are not Matrix Actions, but when jumped in they are treated as Matrix Actions.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You are not disconnected from the matrix just because you suffer high noise. High noise is mostly just "higher latency". This will make it hard to play online shooters. This will make it hard to remote control a vehicle. This will make it hard to hack a Host. And it does not disconnect you from the matrix. You can still Send Messages to your drones and you can still defend against matrix attacks just fine.

SR5 p. 230 Noise:
It may seem as if traffic in the Matrix is instantaneous, but ask anyone who has played an online game with someone a few continents away—there is a noticeable delay compared to playing someone next door. When decisions are being made in the blink of an eye, every speed difference matters. The farther you are away from an icon in real life, the harder it is to communicate with it, whether your intentions are harmful or benign.

What I think you might be confused by are *Wireless Bonuses*... Basically they are some extra bonuses you can get if you connect wireless to your devices as long as you have a very fast wireless connection (think of if as if wireless connections in the world of SR5 have higher bandwidth / faster connection than wired connections). Now... if there is too much noise. Too much latency. Then you don't get the "high speed premium wifi" wireless bonus.

This is explained in the Wireless Bonuses chapter at SR5 p. 421 When they type wireless functionality in this chapter they are talking about the *wireless bonus* functionality and nothing else. Aaron clarified that this was RAI in this very forum back in 2014.

SR5 p. 421 Wireless Bonuses: If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).

Even if you use RAW and interpret the wireless functionality in the wireless bonus chapter as if low device ratings would not only lose their wireless bonuses but actually get fully disconnected from the matrix... it still doesn't affect the rigger in your example as long as he use a direct connection between his control rig and the vehicle;

SR5 p. 232 Direct Connections: When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid.

SR5 p. 266 Noise and Rigging: If you’re rigging via wireless, all of your actions suffer
from a Noise penalty (see p. 230). If you’re using a direct connection, you don’t have to worry about Noise at all. A rigger’s data cable gets a lot of use for this reason.
...
Vehicle Actions are not Matrix Actions, but when jumped in they are treated as Matrix Actions.

I think I agree on the big picture boiled down to "No Matrix = No Matrix Actions".. but I think we're maybe talking past each other on the implications.

Rather than using the example of Deckers attempting hacking each other inside a Faraday Cage, let's say a Rigger is directly jacked into a vehicle that is in turn inside a ginormous Faraday cage.  I think we agree that there can be no matrix connectivity from inside the Faraday cage, so what capabilities if any does Jumping In permit without a matrix connection?  Going back to the example I originally used: Hackers can't hack each other's decks from inside a Faraday Cage even by way of direct connection, since the direct connection doesn't break the Faraday field and "let the Matrix in".

I pruned a lot out from Xenon's quoted post, but the last sentence is critical to my confusion.  Again: Vehicle Actions are not Matrix Actions, but when jumped in they are treated as Matrix Actions."

What's confusing me is what appears to be the argument that you can be Jumped In to a vehicle and drive it without any of that being "on the Matrix". And not only can you DO it, you can do it without any negative impact in comparison to being full wireless-on.  Surely the Rigging actions are presuming a host of steady data feeds relating to the weather, traffic patters, road conditions, navigation, and so on.  Surely you can't perform equally well while at a disadvantage?  Or are the AR/VR bonuses to driving tests considered to encompass those advantages, and those bonuses should be considered the only difference between wireless rigging and no-wireless rigging?

[Xenon]

As I understand it, you need to have access to a Grid and the matrix as a whole in order to form your persona on your commlink / cyberdeck / rcc  (or directly on your vehicle). That the device you form your persona on need to be wireless enabled. If the device you formed your persona on is wireless disabled, bricked, rebooted or destroyed then you no longer have a persona in the matrix (also dumpshock...)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As I understand it, you need to have access to a Grid and the matrix as a whole in order to form your persona on your commlink / cyberdeck / rcc  (or directly on your vehicle). That the device you form your persona on need to be wireless enabled. If the device you formed your persona on is wireless disabled, bricked, rebooted or destroyed then you no longer have a persona in the matrix (also dumpshock...)

K, so should a Rigger be directly connected to a wireless-off vehicle, can he Jump In and rig it in the first place if his RCC is also wireless off (or isn't even using one)?