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6WE Strength useless for melee users?

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #90 on: <09-10-19/1450:57> »
Well, speaking as a Devil's Advocate here...

Is a big scary Troll really going to do MORE damage with a knife than by making full and horrific use of his dermal deposits and bone lacing?

Even if the knife gives +1DV, +2DV from your augmentations is still the no brainer option...

And as a related thought:
Remember that scene in Deadpool 2 where Juggernaut rips DP in half with his bare hands?  You think he would have done MORE damage by stabbing him?

True, but if a little boy will hit you on the head with a frying pan it won't heart or be as lethal as a fully augmented troll.

It's like those Strongest Man attractions when you strike with the hammer on a button and try to ring the bell at the top. You hit with the hammer and it measures how hard you hit, no matter how skilled the person is or how agile he is, it won't help him ring that bell.
So clubs should use different damage rules than blades?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #91 on: <09-10-19/1457:49> »
No one is talking about a troll with a knife. It's always a troll with a combat axe or a sledgehammer.

Well, even if a combat axe or sledgehammer gave a hypothetical +2 or +3DV to damage, it'd still just be no net gain over bone lacing and such.  And going into the realm of +4DV is just crazy talk, given the larger context of 6we's weapon damage values.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Mustakrakish

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« Reply #92 on: <09-10-19/1501:01> »
Well, speaking as a Devil's Advocate here...

Is a big scary Troll really going to do MORE damage with a knife than by making full and horrific use of his dermal deposits and bone lacing?

Even if the knife gives +1DV, +2DV from your augmentations is still the no brainer option...

And as a related thought:
Remember that scene in Deadpool 2 where Juggernaut rips DP in half with his bare hands?  You think he would have done MORE damage by stabbing him?

True, but if a little boy will hit you on the head with a frying pan it won't heart or be as lethal as a fully augmented troll.

It's like those Strongest Man attractions when you strike with the hammer on a button and try to ring the bell at the top. You hit with the hammer and it measures how hard you hit, no matter how skilled the person is or how agile he is, it won't help him ring that bell.
So clubs should use different damage rules than blades?

Yes, maybe. Blades are very much more based on technique, you can be a very strong person and you won't be able to cut with a blade the same as a well-practiced warrior. There many examples of it on Youtube.

But with a hammer, the harder you hit the more powerful the impact.

Just have blades attack with AGI + Melee, and clubs STR + Melee. That's it.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #93 on: <09-10-19/1515:28> »
Well, even if a combat axe or sledgehammer gave a hypothetical +2 or +3DV to damage, it'd still just be no net gain over bone lacing and such.  And going into the realm of +4DV is just crazy talk, given the larger context of 6we's weapon damage values.
And that is a problem with bone lacing damage being overvalued compared to heavy melee weapons. A normal sledgehammer allows a normal human to smash concrete; a particularly strong troll with a troll-sized sledgehammer should be capable of inflicting tremendous damage, like flattening a V12 engine block. And what about a troll weapon adept, who isn't going to have bone lacing? Why should he be doing less damage with a sledgehammer than with his fists?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #94 on: <09-10-19/1531:23> »
Well, even if a combat axe or sledgehammer gave a hypothetical +2 or +3DV to damage, it'd still just be no net gain over bone lacing and such.  And going into the realm of +4DV is just crazy talk, given the larger context of 6we's weapon damage values.
And that is a problem with bone lacing damage being overvalued compared to heavy melee weapons. A normal sledgehammer allows a normal human to smash concrete; a particularly strong troll with a troll-sized sledgehammer should be capable of inflicting tremendous damage, like flattening a V12 engine block.

So what would that look like to you, ideally? Tuning a troll with a sledgehammer somewhere between the 7P DV autocannon and the 12P DV anti-vehicular rocket?

Quote
And what about a troll weapon adept, who isn't going to have bone lacing? Why should he be doing less damage with a sledgehammer than with his fists?

Because if the Adept doesn't have about as much bonus DV from Critical Strike as he could have gotten thru cyber/bioware, then you're clearly not building a melee combat Adept anyway and the comparison to a sammy built for close combat is invalid.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #95 on: <09-10-19/1537:31> »
Is a big scary Troll really going to do MORE damage with a knife than by making full and horrific use of his dermal deposits and bone lacing?
Y'know, no matter tough those dermal deposits are supposed to be... why do we never talk about what dealing out greater-than-assault-cannon-damage is doing to the troll's poor hands, elbows, knees, and feet?

Alternatively, if they really are tough enough to stand up to that sort of abuse - why isn't said troll approximately bulletproof?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #96 on: <09-10-19/1547:10> »
Is a big scary Troll really going to do MORE damage with a knife than by making full and horrific use of his dermal deposits and bone lacing?
Y'know, no matter tough those dermal deposits are supposed to be... why do we never talk about what dealing out greater-than-assault-cannon-damage is doing to the troll's poor hands, elbows, knees, and feet?

Well, there are complaints about firearm DVs being "too low".  Not so many in this thread though, because it's about melee combat... but to expound on the assault cannon comparison.. why do you even NEED to hit even harder with a melee weapon when unarmed damage is already outpacing a fraggin' assault cannon? :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #97 on: <09-10-19/1632:33> »
Well, there are complaints about firearm DVs being "too low".

As far as the complaints go, do you know what they are too low in comparison too? If they refer to other model guns in the same category I can see that. Like a 2P ares light fire 70 vs. a 5P ruger redhawk because of burst fire.

But top end firearm damage is really high compared to potential soak pools. An explosive round loaded burst firing rpk hmg is 9P. That is plenty.

but to expound on the assault cannon comparison.. why do you even NEED to hit even harder with a melee weapon when unarmed damage is already outpacing a fraggin' assault cannon? :D

Past the fact that a fist hitting harder than an assault canon is ludicrous, I just want the damn damage system to make sense. I like the lower damage. I like the lower soak. Strength should impact melee damage, and there most certainly never be a case where an unarmed person picking up a club, let alone a polearm or axe, does less damage than had they just punched someone. Armor should reduce incoming damage.

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penllawen

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« Reply #98 on: <09-10-19/1637:20> »
Well, there are complaints about firearm DVs being "too low".  Not so many in this thread though, because it's about melee combat... but to expound on the assault cannon comparison.. why do you even NEED to hit even harder with a melee weapon when unarmed damage is already outpacing a fraggin' assault cannon? :D
Sure. Personally, I’d decrease unarmed damage to Str/3, as I’ve posted previously. With small +DV for melee weapons.

Or observe that the thing that makes no sense is unarmed damage scaling with strength when (say) brass knuckle damage does not. So make unarmed damage a fixed code - knucks are 3P so maybe 3S - but roll Strength on the Close Combat Test.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #99 on: <09-10-19/1641:04> »
So what would that look like to you, ideally? Tuning a troll with a sledgehammer somewhere between the 7P DV autocannon and the 12P DV anti-vehicular rocket?

I don't know or care about such details. I'm never going to play 6e, so the only dog I have in this fight is that strength not contributing to melee weapon damage makes no sense from any perspective. It doesn't make sense from a simulationist perspective, it doesn't make sense from a gamist perspective and the tropes are not aligned for it to make sense from a narrative perspective.

Quote
Because if the Adept doesn't have about as much bonus DV from Critical Strike as he could have gotten thru cyber/bioware, then you're clearly not building a melee combat Adept anyway and the comparison to a sammy built for close combat is invalid.
And why can't he get it on his sledgehammer? Why does it have to be his fists and only his fists?

Well, there are complaints about firearm DVs being "too low".  Not so many in this thread though, because it's about melee combat... but to expound on the assault cannon comparison.. why do you even NEED to hit even harder with a melee weapon when unarmed damage is already outpacing a fraggin' assault cannon? :D
Because it's the only thing that makes sense. Everyone knows that being stronger lets you hit harder and that weapons hit harder than your fists. If not from practical experience, then from history, physics or even media. You can bring up fringe cases where the weapon wouldn't be an effective way to apply one's strength, but in the general case unarmed doing more damage than a melee weapon makes no sense and as written 6e turns most melee weapons into pool noodles.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #100 on: <09-10-19/1709:38> »
Well, there are complaints about firearm DVs being "too low".

As far as the complaints go, do you know what they are too low in comparison too? If they refer to other model guns in the same category I can see that. Like a 2P ares light fire 70 vs. a 5P ruger redhawk because of burst fire.

But top end firearm damage is really high compared to potential soak pools. An explosive round loaded burst firing rpk hmg is 9P. That is plenty.

but to expound on the assault cannon comparison.. why do you even NEED to hit even harder with a melee weapon when unarmed damage is already outpacing a fraggin' assault cannon? :D

Past the fact that a fist hitting harder than an assault canon is ludicrous, I just want the damn damage system to make sense. I like the lower damage. I like the lower soak. Strength should impact melee damage, and there most certainly never be a case where an unarmed person picking up a club, let alone a polearm or axe, does less damage than had they just punched someone. Armor should reduce incoming damage.

I’ll say my issue with the lower damage isn’t the lower damage itself. I’ve said it before it’s I don’t like how without rules mastery you need so many hits to kill a rando in one shot. Sure if you use explosive ammo, make a called shot with a narrow  burst now you only need 3 or 4 hits but needing7 hits to kill someone seems extreme. But at the same time I like the lower base damage. The problem I always had with high base damages is you can’t really reflect a grazing hit. The it’s just a flesh wound from every action movie in the 80s. So
I don’t think the base damage is wrong I think damage should scale faster like 2dv  per net hit. And I’d like less rules mastery methods like the burst fire explosive called shot stuff.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #101 on: <09-10-19/1715:55> »
Well, when it comes to non-combatants, you rarely need to actually fill a CM to eliminate them as a threat.

You shot/hit the PR0 Janitor for a paltry 3 damage? Well, yeah he's still alive but he'll still probably surrender and beg to not be killed.  Take his commlink, ziptie him so he doesn't wander off and verbally warn someone, and move on.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #102 on: <09-10-19/1939:47> »
Well, even if a combat axe or sledgehammer gave a hypothetical +2 or +3DV to damage, it'd still just be no net gain over bone lacing and such.  And going into the realm of +4DV is just crazy talk, given the larger context of 6we's weapon damage values.
And that is a problem with bone lacing damage being overvalued compared to heavy melee weapons. A normal sledgehammer allows a normal human to smash concrete; a particularly strong troll with a troll-sized sledgehammer should be capable of inflicting tremendous damage, like flattening a V12 engine block.

So what would that look like to you, ideally? Tuning a troll with a sledgehammer somewhere between the 7P DV autocannon and the 12P DV anti-vehicular rocket?

Quote
And what about a troll weapon adept, who isn't going to have bone lacing? Why should he be doing less damage with a sledgehammer than with his fists?

Because if the Adept doesn't have about as much bonus DV from Critical Strike as he could have gotten thru cyber/bioware, then you're clearly not building a melee combat Adept anyway and the comparison to a sammy built for close combat is invalid.

Critical strike and improved attribute cost 1 point each even with liberal use of Qi focuses you are probably not getting anywhere near the sam.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #103 on: <09-10-19/1946:14> »
Well, even if a combat axe or sledgehammer gave a hypothetical +2 or +3DV to damage, it'd still just be no net gain over bone lacing and such.  And going into the realm of +4DV is just crazy talk, given the larger context of 6we's weapon damage values.
And that is a problem with bone lacing damage being overvalued compared to heavy melee weapons. A normal sledgehammer allows a normal human to smash concrete; a particularly strong troll with a troll-sized sledgehammer should be capable of inflicting tremendous damage, like flattening a V12 engine block. And what about a troll weapon adept, who isn't going to have bone lacing? Why should he be doing less damage with a sledgehammer than with his fists?

Bone lacing doing sword damage has been a bit of stupid since I think 2e. It should just turn damage to physical and end there. It’s a glorified roll of quarters.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #104 on: <09-10-19/1952:28> »
Well, when it comes to non-combatants, you rarely need to actually fill a CM to eliminate them as a threat.

You shot/hit the PR0 Janitor for a paltry 3 damage? Well, yeah he's still alive but he'll still probably surrender and beg to not be killed.  Take his commlink, ziptie him so he doesn't wander off and verbally warn someone, and move on.

Even combatants can have a I quit threshold. The professional rating usually covered that. I haven’t checked it in 6e. That’s a patch to the issue though. A person shouldn’t need like 30 dice to kill a low rent combatant with a single shot with a pistol.(base 3 dc 10 hits, 8 net vs relatively Ave dude, 1 soaked.)

SR6 solves this with system mastery. The called shot, burst fire, explosive round so now my starting DV is 8 method). Id prefer system mastery dies in a fire of simplification and your damage just scale faster. Personal preference on game style.