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buying preparations on the open market

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Slithery D

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« Reply #75 on: <08-13-13/0930:08> »
As there's no delayed contact action the arrow doesn't have time to penetrate before it goes poof.
Does it say somewhere in the book that the lynchpin is destroyed when the spell goes of?
No, and it would be kind of crazy if it did.

Mäx

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« Reply #76 on: <08-13-13/0936:17> »
Does it say somewhere in the book that the lynchpin is destroyed when the spell goes of?
Not explicitly, on the other hand it doesn't say you can do double damage with the attack either. If you want an official answer go FAQ it. I suspect you'll get the same answer people get every time they ask if they can double dip for damage, but I could be surprised.
Actually that was far more general question then just contact triggered combat spells, as i had planned on using various pieces of jewelry as lynchpins for my myssadd alchemist occult detective(ala Harry Dresden and the sample character) and thought that maybe i missed something in the alchemy section.
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Slithery D

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« Reply #77 on: <08-13-13/0936:22> »
If anyone wants to see a fictional example of how preparations would work, read Harry Connoly's somewhat obscure Twenty Palaces fantasy series. One of the characters, Annalise, writes her spells on ribbons she wears clipped on a vest under her jacket and drops or throws them to activate them. This includes (short range) fire attacks, mostly, but in later books you get stuff similar to Illusion and Manipulation spells.

Really, the best use is just to save up utility or short range combat spells and heal from the drain in advance of needing them.

Mirikon

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« Reply #78 on: <08-13-13/0938:42> »
Except that healing spells have to be command trigger, but otherwise, yeah. I could definitely see potions of Armor, for instance. And I can definitely see some alchemist mixing up a potion of Flamethrower as a trap.
Huh... you're right. That just seems silly, especially since with regular casting, you need to be physically touching the target for health spells.
Well, with a preparation, you could have the mage put, say, an onmyudo charm on the corpsec enforcer. He's in the middle of a melee fight against some runners, and you don't want to leave your cover, because they know to geek the mage first. So all you got to do is say the command, guard gets a heal, and the runners are pissed.

As I said, chalk or marker on a floor tile could prepare a nasty surprise for people, but trying to make them into magical grenades just does not work.

"The object used for the preparation is called the lynch- pin. It must be small enough for you to lift, handle, and manipulate."

No floors. Which would in any case introduce the "separable auras" problem in a big way.  If an arrow head is the same as the arrow how is a floor not the same as the Earth?

If you want a "don't step on this" trap bring a cloth or something to use as a floor mat. It's a gray area, but some might want to allow you to put a preparation on a hinged door.
Good catch, Silthery. Yeah, you would need a floor mat, or a charm, or something like that. Still, there are definite possibilities there.

Although, a floor or building typically is not regarded as having an aura unless it is made of living material, otherwise mages would certainly have trouble moving through walls, just they have trouble moving through the Earth's aura.

The prohibition against making two attacks in the same action would still apply.
There are no "two attack actions" only one that just happens to have have multiple effect, exactly the same as a arrow head or blade dipped in poison has.
Max, do you by any chance live in Green Bay? Because you seem to have easy access to cheese. Moreover, you're wrong. You have the attack with the arrow, and the spellcasting test for the spell going off. Any GM that lets you get away with it is either a moron or a sadistic bastard who has just found a new way to screw the players for his amusement.

This is splitting hairs and walking down the path of brokenness and rules lawyering, starting an arms race with the GM, a race that he will inevitably win.
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DigitalZombie

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« Reply #79 on: <08-13-13/0940:35> »
There sure seems to be a fine line here. Using a crossbow is my own damn fault for being inferior to the assault rifle guy. But using the same crossbow with a force 5 potency 3 flamethrower is worthy of a phonebooking. What if I used the same crossbow with a power 15 narcoject injection bolt? Physical damage from the bolt and stun damage from the injection. (grunts only have a single condition modifier)

Contact preparations affects the NEXT living being touching it, so I think it would be doable to create it and load it in a magazine\vial\pouch as long as the alchemists doesnt release it in the meantime to pick his nose, as he would then be the next living being touching it, when he picked it up again.

If you were to cast a mana spell on the bolt, the bolt cant get targeted\damaged by it so it should be fine (depending on wether one thinks mundane bolts are one use)




Crunch

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« Reply #80 on: <08-13-13/0941:22> »
Good catch, Silthery. Yeah, you would need a floor mat, or a charm, or something like that. Still, there are definite possibilities there.


Something like a sand painting, or inscribed ritual circle would seem natural for this sort of use.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #81 on: <08-13-13/0944:12> »
double dip for damage
Attacks with poison-coated blades are an exception already, but that's not using 2 Simple Actions for 2 Attack Actions.

You have the attack with the arrow, and the spellcasting test for the spell going off. Any GM that lets you get away with it is either a moron or a sadistic bastard who has just found a new way to screw the players for his amusement.
But in all fairness, there are a few ways in the book where within a single action you cause damage in multiple ways. So while you can easily disallow it as GM, the book does not explicitly forbid causing damage in the SAME action in multiple ways.

Command I wouldn't allow. Contact, however, could work but you definitely need a good explanation on why it won't go off on you, and the GM has every right to explain complications that would ruin your plan.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #82 on: <08-13-13/0946:14> »
Michael, you already said the key word there: exceptions. There are a few specific exceptions in the rules. Alchemy is not amongst those exceptions, therefore it follows the rules, unless something is printed later to change that, or you house rule it at your table.
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Mäx

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« Reply #83 on: <08-13-13/0952:21> »
Max, do you by any chance live in Green Bay? Because you seem to have easy access to cheese. Moreover, you're wrong. You have the attack with the arrow, and the spellcasting test for the spell going off.
Only one of those is an action of the character the other one is an effect caused by somebody touching a contact trigger preparations.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #84 on: <08-13-13/0955:02> »
Except that p408 does NOT state it is an exception to the 1 Attack Actions per Action Phase. So I have no reason to believe that 1 Attack Action per Action Phase forbids all types of double-offensive-effects-in-one-action.

If you have a section of the rules, or a rule clarification, that proves me wrong, please provide it. But the way things are written as far as I can see, Ammunition+Contact is not explicitly forbidden. Ammunition+Command is.
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Serafina

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« Reply #85 on: <08-13-13/1046:50> »
Bottom Line: Touch-Trigger Preparations need a FAQ-clarification.

That being said, there are roughly three ways they can work out:
- Touch-Preparations are only good as traps - the mage makes them, drops them and hopes that someone picks them up/steps on them in the next few hours. Which would very severely limit their use, especially since that can be done in a lot of cases with timer-preparations.
- Touch-Preparations can be handed to teammates in a container, allowing them to trigger beneficial spells when they need them without the mage being present. This is what i would prefer to happen, since it gives them something you can't do via other magical means, including other preparations, and is something that can be seen in lots of magic systems (magic potions, prayer strips etc.).
- Touch-Preparations are save enough to handle that you can use them for offensive spells without notable hassle. I don't think that was the intention - handling out buffs to your teammates is one thing, giving them magical attacks another.


As i said, i'm most fond of the second idea.
But either way - even if touch-preparations get made worse, Alchemy will remain useful:
- It's easily possible to take half an hour to make some Preparations, take an hour to drive to the location of your run and heal a bit of stun damage in between.
- Preparations are best for sustained spells, not combat spells (ironic, because all sample preparations are combat spells). You don't have to do anything to sustain it, and they last long enough for any combat - so if you want offensive preparations, use Illusion- or Manipulation-spells!
- You can trigger a Preparation without being physically present - just astrally project and manifest, and you can trigger any command-preparation present.
- While its unclear, it seems like you need the more specialized Disenchanting-spell to counter an activated preparation, so less enemies will be able to do it.
- Last but not least, it only takes a simple action to trigger a command-preparation, so the drain is actually better than with reckless casting.

Slithery D

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« Reply #86 on: <08-13-13/1734:42> »
- While its unclear, it seems like you need the more specialized Disenchanting-spell to counter an activated preparation, so less enemies will be able to do it.
One of the consequences of the "damaged lynch pins don't work" ruling to prevent bullet preparations is that you can simply shoot (or bash with a club/axe) a preparation to destroy it. But you can't Counterspell it before it detonates, although you should still be able to defend when it activates.

Serafina

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« Reply #87 on: <08-14-13/0235:38> »
*Sigh* Yes, someone clearly didn't think the new Alchemy-system through.

There's that whole mess with Contact-Preparations. But Disenchanting isn't clear either.
Sure, you can use it to destroy Foci, and you can destroy a not-yet activated Preparation.
But do you need it to counter the effects of a triggered Preparation, or does that fall under Counterspelling? I don't think destroying the Lynchpin does anything after the Preparation is triggered, but that's another unclear bit.

If the "Lynchpin can't get damaged"-ruling goes into the official FAQ, then Disenchanting becomes near-useless if you can counter an activated Preparation with Counterspelling. So i really hope that they rule you can't, that Disenchanting is needed for it (which would also make Preparations more valuable, since they use lower dicepools anyway).


IMO, Contact-Preparations should be changed to something like this:
You must choose part of the Lynchpin to be the trigger of the Preparation. This can be as small as a single carved rune or as big as the whole surface area. The Preparation is triggered when a living being touches that part of the Lynchpin with it's body - clothes or other protective items do not prevent activation, but using tools would since they are not part of a living aura.

That doesn't take up more text than the other triggers, and makes it much clearer what "touch" constitutes. Plus, it removes the need for shenanigans like "i put the preparation into a container so that i can carry it without touching it".