[penllawen]

If it is "realism" you're after, why are you playing Shadowrun? Let's cut the "realism" drek for a second and just take a look at the game and setting we are talking about. Non-human species. Magic. Critters from other dimensions that want to put their eggs in you. Computer magic. The list goes on and on. Shadowrun is not "realistic." Being "realistic" is a waste of time with the game.

Internal consistency and external consistency are different things. The existence of trolls and dragons is a challenge to the latter. Trolls paying +10% to buy the same ammunition their human team-mates do "because balance" is a challenge to the former. Shredding internal consistency is toxic to suspension of disbelief.

This is really basic storytelling.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Consistency

[Xenon]

If it is "realism" you're after, why are you playing Shadowrun?

Hahaha... 

But seriously, please don't let us reopen that can of worms.

To some veteran Shadowrun players, trading a 'realistic' (and crunchy) rule for a higher level of abstraction (and less bookkeeping) seem to be a really touchy subject.

[Plan_B]

Hahaha... 

But seriously, please don't let us reopen that can of worms.

To some veteran Shadowrun players, trading a 'realistic' (and crunchy) rule for a higher level of abstraction (and less bookkeeping) seem to be a really touchy subject.

You're not wrong.

[skalchemist]

I wonder if this "10% tax on trolls" abstraction feels wrong to some is because a) it is applied to the price side, not the income side, and b) comes with no reasoning for the abstraction.  Like, if the rule were

A troll ends up spending a lot just moving about in the world.  Therefore, everytime they earn Nuyen, the immediately lose 10% of that value to general troll-related discomfort and annoyance at being in a world that is just too damn small for them.  This is obviously an abstraction, but we believe it simplifies bookkeeping while still showing just how hard it is for trolls.

Would that be more acceptable?  That avoids the whole "why does a cyberdeck cost more for a troll question", right?  It never comes up with that rule, because the tax is an income tax, not a sales tax.  Mathematically it will end up in a very similar place, but in a way that might have more internal consistency (as Plan_B put it).

[Plan_B]

At the risk of opening up an economic can of worms, income tax and consumption tax don’t even out except at the peak of the bell curve. A consumption tax actually hits new characters harder than an income tax would because the rules require a certain degree of expenditure at creation that doesn’t even remotely get equaled out for a very long time. Then, eventually you reach a point where even a flat income tax not subject to an insane amount of tax law, regulation, and loopholes becomes exceptionally more costly to a successful runner making lots of nuyen but with relatively low purchases. This, of course, doesn’t even account for the multitude of real world income factors like capital gains.

Effectively, an income tax on the back end is less detrimental to street level characters than a consumption tax is but more detrimental to a rich runner.

Real world economics getting in the way of fun. Again. Truthfully, the answer is simple: if you don’t like the rule, change it or ignore it. It provides some balance against the power of a troll character at creation but becomes less detrimental over time if wealth is accumulated. I also want to note that the power differential at the high end between a troll and any other metatype is not nearly as wide as it is at character creation, which makes the income tax ultimately for more detrimental than the consumption tax.

[Reaver]

Well, the end result of "less bookkeeping" is a flat 10% increase on purchases....
So really, if you are in the camp of "Less is more" and you are still complaining.. well... 

AS has been pointed out, the increase costs for Trolls has been around since the beginning, it has just changed in how it was applied.. (as other have stated, 3e gave you a mirco list of exemptions.. then 4e gave you a flat lifestyle "tax"... and so on...

But, I also agree that unless you are wanting to run missions, if you don't like it, just drop the rule...

Now, is it perfect? heck no... but paying 10% for your bullets, and chips, and programs is easier than remembering you need to pay 3x more for your clothing, and 6X more for your food, and a 15% increase to vehicles, and an $0.10 per breath for the Carbon Tax....

Now, if you want to question the validity of a cost increase as a balance mechanic, you might have a good case there, given how often people just say "frag it" and don't follow it at all.

[imthedci]

I hate to raise a dead thread, but since my question fits in the constrains of the topic, it seemed a better idea than just making a new post.


By RAW, does this +10% apply to Lifestyle costs as well, or is it just for gear and everything else?

[penllawen]

By RAW, does this +10% apply to Lifestyle costs as well, or is it just for gear and everything else?

The entire section is:

Size Cost Adjustments

Most gear is built to be used by humans, or at least human-sized creatures. Elves and orks are close enough to human sizes that they can generally make this gear work for them, but it’s not as easy for dwarfs and trolls. They usually need to shop at spe- cial stores or order their gear with certain customi- zations made to it. To account for this, dwarfs pay a ten percent markup on all the fitted gear they pur- chase. This applies to items like armor and clothes, but not stuff like weapons and commlinks. When in doubt, the gamemaster makes the call of when to apply it. It’s harder for trolls, and they experience a ten percent markup on everything. Even AR setting have to be adjusted to fit trolls’ thick fingers, and every piece of gear needs some kind of adjustment for their size, strength, and dermal deposits.

It starts off specifically talking about gear, but then says "everything" later on. You could read it either way. And you could argue not applying it to lifestyle would be weird, given that trolls need more space, more food, different furniture, etc etc.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I agree that it seems somewhat "off" that trolls/dwarves don't pay extra for lifestyle due to their extreme ergonomic needs if they pay extra for gear for that same reason.

However, I'm not inclined to agree that it looks like they "should", given the language used in this edition.

*putting rules lawyer hat on*

The basis for saying they should pay that extra bit for lifestyle is twofold: 1) it worked that way in 5e, and 2) its says they pay extra for "everything", and lifestyle counts as something encompassed by "everything".

To rebut: 1) doesn't count for anything if it's specifically contradicted in this edition, which it appears to be.  It says they pay extra for gear, not for lifestyle.  "But lifestyle counts as 'everything'" segues into 2) By that rationale, then they must also pay extra for karma costs, since buying skills/attributes counts as "everything", does it not?  And there's zero indication of that being the case, by RAW or by RAI, elsewhere.

Ok, so "obviously" when it said everything, it meant just "everything paid for in nuyen"?   Well, now we're diverging from RAW and coloring the reading with opinion, and that undermines the whole argument "by RAW it says 'everything!'" to begin with.  But further than that, other things can be paid for in nuyen, too.  Namely, bribes and fines.  Again, there's no support anywhere else that Trolls must pay more when bribing or fined, just because they're trolls. 

The flipside to all this hand-wringing about whether things beyond gear are covered by "everything" is to simply presume that they are not.  It's a rule presented in the gear section. Contextually, it's easy enough to presume that the rule only applies to gear.  I think that's the stronger way to read it, and therefore "everything" does not apply to lifestyle because it is not gear.

Of course: YMMV.

[evileeyore]

I know I'm necroing this long dead topic... however I just noticed something.

Troll Tax and Custom Modification Metahuman Adaptation (Firing Squad pg 61).

By my reading, the Troll Tax covers modifying equipment for Trolls to use, that's the whole point of it right.  However the modification says it's necessary to add this if I don't want a -2 to use the weapon.  Also, it's often far less (and sometimes far more) than the Troll Tax.  Does the mod supersede the Troll Tax or do I have to take it and pay the extra 20¥ for the privilege?

Or did someone just forget Troll's and Dwarf's are taxed for their gear in the core book when they wrote Firing Squad 6e?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I know I'm necroing this long dead topic... however I just noticed something.

Troll Tax and Custom Modification Metahuman Adaptation (Firing Squad pg 61).

By my reading, the Troll Tax covers modifying equipment for Trolls to use, that's the whole point of it right.  However the modification says it's necessary to add this if I don't want a -2 to use the weapon.  Also, it's often far less (and sometimes far more) than the Troll Tax.  Does the mod supersede the Troll Tax or do I have to take it and pay the extra 20¥ for the privilege?

Or did someone just forget Troll's and Dwarf's are taxed for their gear in the core book when they wrote Firing Squad 6e?

My take on it is you may use whichever version of the troll tax is more beneficial based on the item in question.

I'd also take the troll tax applying to absolutely everything with a grain of salt.  Certain things don't even have physical forms, for example autosofts, so it's impossible to "adjust them for the troll's size and strength and dermal deposits".  I'd even say there are some physical objects that still will work just fine without needing to be reinforced, like toxins.  Of course these are personal opinion!

[Michael Chandra]

I'd argue that the custom modification is for when you obtain something that wasn't automatically adjusted to you already. If the custom mod is cheaper, I'd use that price. If it's more expensive, it applies if you're modding existing gear, and the troll tax should apply if you're buying fresh.

[evileeyore]

I'd argue that the custom modification is for when you obtain something that wasn't automatically adjusted to you already.

Thanks!  GM likes this explanation so we're going with it.  Of course it still costs 220¥ for the Troll...  but it also means non-Trolls/Dwarfs acquiring a Troll or Dwarfed weapon can apply the Metahuman Modification to deTroll/Dwarfify it.

And we're using SSDR's general rulings on the Troll Tax, so the gun is more expensive, but not the bullets, Licensing, or Targeting Software.