[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

10% is not over the top.

I am with Lormyr on this one.
Even with the troll tax, trolls are still almost always mechanically better than both orcs and humans.

It's all a matter of perspective/opinion.

Nuyen, for certain archetypes, is more important than karma for character advancement.  For argument's sake, would it also be appropriate for a given metatype to pay 10% more on karma expenditures?  It'd hit magicians the way +10% gear cost hits deckers/riggers/sammies.

Is a 10% tax on your character advancement over the top? Opinion.  Is it balanced that when you make a troll, you give yourself a 10% handicap if you play certain archetypes vs other archetypes? Objectively, factually, no.  Considering a hacker? Troll Decker has a 10% advancement penalty, Troll Technomancer doesn't.  A fighter? Troll Sammie has a 10% advancement penalty.  Troll Adept doesn't.

[Xenon]

Even with the troll tax, troll deckers have never been in such a good spot as they are in this edition (metatype maximum logic and intuition are both at 6 for the first time in history). Metatype maximum intuition of 5 and logic of 4 was a lot more "over the top" if you planned on playing a troll decker in 5th edition than the +10% tax for playing a troll decker in 6th edition...

Troll samurai is also in a really good spot in this edition. The troll tax is basically the only reason why you would pick a human or orc samurai over a troll samurai, but even with the tax the troll samurai seem to come out on-top in most situations anyway.


But if you (for some reason) think troll is too weak compared to other metatypes in this edition (I don't) you can for example house rule the troll tax to only apply to selected items.

[Michael Chandra]

"I can only imagine OP builds" hardly sounds like a good reason to make ware cost extra for Trolls. Essentially you're saying 'play it optimal or you're paying for nothing'. I'm anti-Humanis so I'm sticking to only applying the tax where it makes sense. In- universe racism is no excuse either. Racism isn't why the Troll pays extra, the rules explicitly state the actual reason.

[Xenon]

If you consider to house rule that troll tax only apply to selected items (like it did before 5th edition) then perhaps you should also consider compensating this weaker disadvantage by house ruling an advantage to other races. For example a house rule that grant humans +5 (or even +10) karma as compensation for not getting as many free racial qualities as trolls.

[Reaver]

Well, when you double the size of something, you increase the mass by a factor of 8....

So that troll cyber arm took 8 TIMES the material of an arm for a human...

As a biological engine, that troll technically needs 8 TIMES the caloric intake of a human....

Pair of pants? MOAR PANTS!!!

10% more sounds like a deal!

[Michael Chandra]

Honestly, +100% lifestyle costs seems easier then.

Also, technically a lot of that cyberarm is wires and surface area, and trolls aren't x2 but x1.5, so it's not really 8x as much. Besides, we don't give dwarves and pixies a discount, so clearly size isn't the problem, most of it still is the actual work. Materials are usually cheap, labour and markup are where the money is. Just like how even 3XL shirts usually only cost a buck or so more than the S shirts. The main reason why Trolls would pay extra, is simply because some things are balanced around a certain finesse and anyone lacking that, by really thick fingers and dermal deposits or otherwise, ends up needing adjustments which are more rare thus cost more.

[Reaver]

Honestly, +100% lifestyle costs seems easier then.

 Besides, we don't give dwarves and pixies a discount

Well, for one, Dwarfs are actually not that much different then humans.... Their proportions (for the most part) are within human ranges, that modifying clothing is not as big a deal.... (shirts are not an issue as the base trunk size of a dwarf is similar to a human. Waist size is within human range, leg length is way off... which would require a removal of material... and skill to do so... But enough to off increase costs as a game mechanic?

Equipment for a dwarf, wouldn't need much change as well, since they are again, close to human proportions... yes they need a booster seat to see over a window and petal extensions to drive.... (or just  a Rigger module).


AS to Pixies.... well these little abominations just need to be thrown into the fires of "NPC ONLY".... These little bastards cause so many problems simply because there is such a disconnect between their size and the real world that they AUTOMATICALLY create headaches for people with even a sliver of common sense.... (I refer you to EVERY. SINGLE. PIXIE. WITH. GUN. POST.)

These little fuckers create such issue I did a post with a Pixie sized cut out, and REAL guns to show just absurd thinking a pixie could use a gun really is..... and people STILL tried to argue that they could.
They are not human, and since they vanish after death, the argument can be made that there is NO cyberware developed that would work on them (neurological interfaces for a metahuman brain may not work with a Pixie's neurological make-up... they ARE innate magical beings with extra natural appendages, that alone means their brain functions are different from a metahuman.) but that doesn't stop people from trying to cyber out the little fuckers AGAIN!!
(not to mention explain how and why a Mega Corp would go through the trouble of capturing and vivisecting pixies for the end result of being able to sell them cyberware... to a species that technically can not pay for said cyberware... (Pixies are only recognized as Sapient by France Remember?)...

[imthedci]

Well, there's something that me or my GM didn't notice...  I really, really wish this was listed under the rules for trolls instead of buried in the Gear section. 

Does this even apply to stuff like Fake SINs or ammo?

[penllawen]

Does this even apply to stuff like Fake SINs or ammo?

By RAW? Yes. By even the tiniest amount of common sense? I would argue not.

[imthedci]

Does this even apply to stuff like Fake SINs or ammo?

By RAW? Yes. By even the tiniest amount of common sense? I would argue not.

Yeah, that doesn't really make any sense. Although, I could totally see the corps putting out Ammo for Trolls(TM), which ends up being normal ammo sold at a higher price...

I mean if we go by RAW, then Trolls have to pay +10% for their soy tacos from Stuffer Shack  and that's getting a little ridiculous.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Does this even apply to stuff like Fake SINs or ammo?

By RAW? Yes. By even the tiniest amount of common sense? I would argue not.

Yeah, that doesn't really make any sense. Although, I could totally see the corps putting out Ammo for Trolls(TM), which ends up being normal ammo sold at a higher price...

I mean if we go by RAW, then Trolls have to pay +10% for their soy tacos from Stuffer Shack  and that's getting a little ridiculous.

Well, troll-sized soy tacos sound like a totally appropriate thing.  I can even see an argument for medical gear like cyberware and Doc Wagon contracts costing more due to the trolls' extreme deviance from "human norms".  But yeah when you get into purely digital goods like programs and SINs, any that doesn't continue to be true.  Nor for things that the troll doesn't *directly* handle.  Like ammo.. a pistol shoots ammo sized for the pistol, whether it's fired by a troll or a human.  The drone doesn't care, nor should the rules mechanics care, if it's owned by a troll or a human.  Honestly, does it make any sense to apply the "unadapted gear" penalty TO drones?

And in that rhetorical question, that probably provides a good "common sense" house rule for troll gear:  only things that you'd plausibly apply the unadapted gear penalty TO requires the +10% price increase.

[Xenon]

I mean if we go by RAW, then Trolls have to pay +10% for their soy tacos from Stuffer Shack

Trolls had higher upkeep in every edition of Shadowrun I can remember. Nothing strange about this.
That trolls pay more on their monthly tacos account is also not really strange (or "ridiculous").


The argument here is basically if you think it is too abstract to just apply a straight +10% to everything like they did in this edition. There will of course be edge cases where this is disconnected from reality. But there will also be cases where you will end up paying less compared to other systems. Simple and fast. Less detailed and in some cases less 'realistic'. This is a design decision that was made when they created this edition.

Another system (that they used in 3rd edition) was to apply a +25% tax (instead of +10%) but only on selected items. Such as vehicles, armor, cloths and other items that need to be customized to fit / not break when a troll use them. This is probably the most 'realistic' system. But it also require most 'bookkeeping' (and it also kinda suck to be a vehicle rigger if all your vehicles cost 25% more or you get a penalty when trying to drive it).

A third system (that they used in 5th edition) was to abstract it into a double lifestyle cost (which will also cover tacos from stuffer shack). Drawback of this is of course that if you have a very cheap lifestyle you don't really pay anything extra at all for eating double portions or having all your vehicles and cloths etc modified.


Personally I think its easier and faster to just apply a 10% increase on everything or simply double your lifestyle, but if it is realism you are after you should probably modify prices of selected items on an item to item basis like we used to do in earlier editions.

[Plan_B]

if it is realism you are after

If it is "realism" you're after, why are you playing Shadowrun? Let's cut the "realism" drek for a second and just take a look at the game and setting we are talking about. Non-human species. Magic. Critters from other dimensions that want to put their eggs in you. Computer magic. The list goes on and on. Shadowrun is not "realistic." Being "realistic" is a waste of time with the game. The entire setting is bonkers beyond belief. Trolls are powerful and scary. Humans are often racist. Life sucks for most trolls in most places. That is partly expressed as a not unreasonable 10% "troll tax." Just pay it and be done with it. If you don't like it, don't use it. The fun police aren't going to kick your door in and take your books away for not running the game RAW. This is a stupid argument to be having, especially about "realism."

[Michael Chandra]

I disagree with the claim that racism is why a troll pays 10% extra on things where it doesn't make sense. Plus the book says why there's extra costs, which is why I disagree with it always applying. Introducing racism as extra reason is moving the goal posts.

[Lormyr]

If it is "realism" you're after, why are you playing Shadowrun? Let's cut the "realism" drek for a second and just take a look at the game and setting we are talking about. Non-human species. Magic. Critters from other dimensions that want to put their eggs in you. Computer magic. The list goes on and on. Shadowrun is not "realistic." Being "realistic" is a waste of time with the game. The entire setting is bonkers beyond belief. Trolls are powerful and scary. Humans are often racist. Life sucks for most trolls in most places. That is partly expressed as a not unreasonable 10% "troll tax." Just pay it and be done with it. If you don't like it, don't use it. The fun police aren't going to kick your door in and take your books away for not running the game RAW. This is a stupid argument to be having, especially about "realism."

"Realism" has numerous valid meanings, from realistic to our world, realistic to the setting's world, realistic to scientific expectations such as physics, and everything in between. For some people "realistic" is a key component to their enjoyment of the setting, game mechanics, or both.

For example, I could personally care less about the troll "tax", but the lack of strength "realistically" applying to melee combat drives me up the wall. There is nothing in either the setting or our real world physics that allows that to make even the slightest amount of sense.

So when you say being realistic is a waste of time I could not disagree more, depending on how you define what that means.