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SR5 Free Spirit PCs?

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Aria

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« on: <03-12-18/1331:48> »
Have I missed something in a recent sourcebook somewhere?  Dark Terrors has sketchy rules for making Free Spirit Insect Spirit PCs… but are there rules anywhere for ‘ordinary’ Free Spirit PCs?  I’m quite happy to adapt the ones from DT to suit but if there are RAW ones for SR5 then that would be better, after all they were perfectly acceptable (in a special snowflake kind of way) in SR4…

I get that inhabitation makes the insect version slightly more rooted in the mundane world than a true free spirit of course… but they get to fly!
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #1 on: <03-12-18/1433:36> »
Nope, sadly not.
But if I look at AI and Drake PC creation, I'm almost glad I don't have to see the hoops you have to jump through that the SR5 version for a Free Spirit PC would require...
talk think matrix

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ShadowcatX

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« Reply #2 on: <03-12-18/1557:23> »
I believe Free Spirits were an option in 4E so the author likely thought they had rules in 5E as well.

To be fair though, the game kind of breaks when you have virtually unkillable PCs like spirits and AIs.

firebug

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« Reply #3 on: <03-12-18/2001:20> »
I believe Free Spirits were an option in 4E so the author likely thought they had rules in 5E as well.

To be fair though, the game kind of breaks when you have virtually unkillable PCs like spirits and AIs.

AI in SR5 are some of the weakest and most vulnerable PCs possible though, so you don't need to worry on that front.  They are worse than technomancers.

Honestly Free Spirits probably shouldn't be playable anyways.  Isn't part of their deal that they need spirit pacts to gain Karma?  If they could just gain Karma like a PC could that'd be kind of pointless.  Also, "normal" materalization spirits can basically just teleport, which is not something you let a PC do in Shadowrun, IMO...  They were playable in 4E, but they shouldn't be.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #4 on: <03-12-18/2234:04> »
They can be weak, or they can be beyond cheesy.

firebug

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« Reply #5 on: <03-12-18/2241:18> »
That's true.  But once they get into matrix combat, they're more vulnerable than TMs and start getting permanent penalties, losing Essence and just ending up dead hella fast.  I've never seen any device survive more than 2 data spikes from any half-competent decker.  Most get one-shot because there's so such thing as armor on the matrix and getting 10DV before net hits is hella easy.

That said, playing a rigger AI is kind of stupid OP.  I made an anthrodrone-rigging AI in a Chicago campaign.  Didn't last long, and the character was great for roleplaying, but he kind of just blew everyone out of the water with super high initiative and really high dice pools for basically everything combat-related, on top of being immune to anything smaller than an assault rifle.  However, the number of houserules (that I have since translated into proposed errata) necessary to get it to function (not "make balanced", I mean "not just contradict itself and actually be unplayable") at all was really high...  AI are flawed, very complex set of rules on top of the most complex ruleset already.

Unfortunately, I'm confident any playable Free Spirits will be much the same way.  The game wasn't designed for them to be playable; hell, even player summoned spirits are a huge issue for some tables because of how broken they can be.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #6 on: <03-14-18/1515:25> »
Aris.  I would be happy helping with the rules for a playable free spirit character.  I like the brain exercise of it and a workable free spirit PC is definitely a challenge. 
Sadly I don't have dark terrors so I have only 4th edition as a base (and their version of a free spirit PC was NOT balanced).

Regarding the AIs it would be neat if someone scrapped the current version and created the rules from scrap. 
« Last Edit: <03-14-18/1517:13> by DigitalZombie »

Sphinx

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« Reply #7 on: <03-14-18/1714:27> »
I have the beginnings of a consistent ruleset for Free Spirits, Free Sprites, and AI. I need to work on it some more before I post it.

Aria

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« Reply #8 on: <03-14-18/1718:15> »
Any ideas welcome :)
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #9 on: <03-14-18/1844:15> »
Well, let's collect the facts:

Free Spirit PCs have/are:

- Dual Natured
- Materialization/Possession
- able to buy spirit powers
- able to fly
- a force rating limiting their attributes
- not able to use conjuring skills

To reign in a some of these abilities I'd suggest introducing a new negative quality:

Pact Bound
The Free Spirit can only exist on this metaplane due to a pact with one other (N)PC. It can not stray more than force*100 m away from this anchor or lose connection to this metaplane (effectively the same restriction as an unbound spirit). Getting disrupted has the same effect as getting too far away. This anchor is the main source of Karma which requires that (N)PC to be an active participant on runs, or their is no Karma reward for the spirit.
Force needs to be bought analog to Depth of AIs with special attribute points.

PC Free Spirits can only be build with the Karma system
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #10 on: <03-15-18/1646:05> »
OK here is my first draft.  I've tried to keep it pretty simple. Also Ive decided to start out underpowered, its easy to add stuff afterwards- powerlevel naturally also depends on what spirit powers are available.

Free spirit with priority system.
Race:
A: Free spirit (4)
B: Free spirit (0)
C: N/A
D: N/A
E: N/A

Attributes, skills and resources:
As normal

Special:
A: magic 4 and 7 spirit powers/spells
B: 3 magic and 4 spirit powers/spells
C: 2 magic and 1 spirit power/spell
D: N/A
E: N/A

This gives the spirit around the same priority choices as a troll mage/technomancer

Attribute scores:
Choose one physical attribute and increase minimum and maximum by 2, choose any other attribute physical or mental and increase it's minimum and maximum by 1 ( one attribute becomes 3-8 and the other 2-7). The rest are 1-6 attributes
These 2 attributes are henceforth known as its primary attributes.  All physical and mental attributes MUST be within +-1 of the spirits magic score.  Except it's primary attributes which may surpass it, up to racial maximum.  Regardless of magic score.
The spirit also has force and essence.  These are always the same as its magic score. Aaand they have edge as normal.

Spirit being: all free spirits are magicians.  Choose a tradition for the free spirit (drain attributes and concept).
Gain +2 to all social rolls against other spirits.

Powers: sapience,  astral form,  materialization,  banishing resistance,  realistic form.  + more according to the priority table.

Your initiative is reaction + intuition + 2d6 on the physical plane
And when you "die" you are just disrupted.

As a free spirit you can never use the conjuring or tasking skills.  Nor can you bond foci or use 'ware. (not bonding was from 4th edition,  maybe they should be able to now?)

Free spirits may take most qualities within reason.
And there are some unique spirit qualities also
Unearthly form +x karma: the spirit looses it's realistic form,
leveraged +x karma: someone has a copy of your spirit formula.  You must sometimes perform tasks on their behalf
Possession - x karma: instead of materialization you have the possession power,
dual forms -xx karma: you have both materlization and possession powers,
mimic + karma: you are addicted to BTLs or drugs etc.  They don't affect you but costs cash and may lead to odd situations,  especially when you think you are having a psykosis.

Spirit powers : most likely some long list of powers.  But a bunch of those powers would be solely for Npcs.

Regarding karma.  As Jack wrote spirits don't usually gain karma on their own.  So they might need a pact or something else for that.  My gut feeling tells me that Jacks pact might be a bit too restrictive.
Maybe just skip it?

« Last Edit: <03-17-18/0206:31> by DigitalZombie »

ChromeCoyote

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« Reply #11 on: <03-22-18/1548:57> »
I just finished my own take on free spirits. Take a look and let me know what you think...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mCFrQ-FvDK0WhNuNF1QiZ9wLlEZFA7rt8eSX3kH3rhc/edit

and an alternate version of my rules that strips Immunity to Normal Weapons, allowing AR, foci bonding, giving reason to use armor and have lifestyles. Done as a separate rule set.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ZoH6EOVGOk2qWNjOVCdMZOiVA5cK_GKP-5XIV7TXLE/edit
« Last Edit: <03-23-18/1338:57> by ChromeCoyote »

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #12 on: <04-15-18/0424:53> »
@ChromeCoyote
I like that you managed to incorporate the spirit type a lot more than I did.
I also like pact of humanity, and I think being able to bond foci etc. Should definetly be a thing.
The only thing Im slightly worried about is how you handled the force thing. I could imagine that most players always would try to gain the highest rating possible. Its kinda like with the mystic adept- if you dont start with as many PP as possible youve made an inferior character.
Maybe just have the force dictate attribute/magic racial maximums. And then be a lot cheaper.

ChromeCoyote

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« Reply #13 on: <04-15-18/1410:03> »
@ChromeCoyote
I like that you managed to incorporate the spirit type a lot more than I did.
I also like pact of humanity, and I think being able to bond foci etc. Should definetly be a thing.

That's in version 2, made just to be able to do things like bind foci and use AR. :)

The only thing Im slightly worried about is how you handled the force thing. I could imagine that most players always would try to gain the highest rating possible. Its kinda like with the mystic adept- if you dont start with as many PP as possible youve made an inferior character.
Maybe just have the force dictate attribute/magic racial maximums. And then be a lot cheaper.

That's really easy to do, if you want to.  Just scroll way down on the sheet, and you'll find the tables of values I used to get the costs. Use "Table 2" to buy up your Force, buy the spirit type, and you're good to go.