Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Hobbes on <08-18-19/1914:56>

Title: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-18-19/1914:56>
Pretty much an impossible build in 5th, the Troll Technomancer.  This build is pretty lulzy but overall the Dicepools are achievable by any Burn-out TM. 

ASDF of 5/5/10/5 going to 6/6/11/5 with Novacoke and Psyche, with a floating +1.  19 Dice for Hacking stuff.  15 Dice with a Hand Crossbow with Narcojet Injection Bolts for combat.  Multiple advancement paths.

This particular character basically plays like a Decker with an implanted Cyberdeck.  No Sprites, Complex forms are just short cut Matrix Actions for Fade.

Metatype   E   Troll 1
Attributes   A   24
Skills   C   20
Magic   D   Resonance 1
Resources   B   275000

S   1   5
A   4   8
R   2   4
B   3   
I   5
L   7   10
C   5
W   5
   
Edge   2         
Resonance    1      
Essence 0.2

Stealth (Sneaking) 4
Athletics (Archery) 5
Cracking (Hacking) 6
Electronics (Computer) 5
Influence   (Negotiation) 1
Engineering (Lockpicking) 1
Con   (Fast Talk) 1
Pilot   1
Perception   1
Biotech   1   

Qualities
Focused Concentration 3      24
Exceptional Logic      12
High Pain Tolerance      7
Analytical mind      3
Impared Str 7      -56
Incompetent Tasking      -10
Net      -20

Karma spend:
Influence   1   5
Engineering   1   5
Con   1   5
Pilot   1   5
Perception   1   5
Biotech   1   5

Specializations      
Negotiations      5
Fast talk      5
Sneaking      5
Archery      5
Hacking      5
Lockpicking       5
Computer      5
Resonance +1     5

Total 70 -20 = 50

Complex Forms
Editor
Puppeteer

Augment   Rating
Bone Density Alpha   4
Muscle Replacement Used   4
Cerebral Boost Used   3
Synaptic Booster Used   2

48750 Nuyen left for gear.  Which is more Nuyen than every 5th Edition Technomancer ever had put together. 

Overall 6th Edition is a huge step up for Technomancers, especially if you're willing to Burn Out.  Your Dice pools are on par with Deckers, your secondary skills are as good as any Decker is likely to have.  You're not living in the gutter fighting off Devil Rats for the last of drop of Soypaste.  If you don't want to derp around with Sprites, you don't have to.  ASDF even with the Deckers.  Psyche and Novacoke are back and aren't addictive yet.  Good times!

Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-20-19/1342:26>
Haha. I love it even if it is exactly what I hate about this priority system especially race design.

I honestly wonder did a single optimizer exist on the character creation design team?

The abuse from impaired attribute and metas especially troll is just too damn obvious. I can’t see how anyone with a small optimizer gene would miss it.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-20-19/1426:22>
Thank you.  The most asinine parts of the build can be stripped out without losing anything critical, and any Metatype is valid.  Analytical Mind is the only important Positive Quality, the rest are just 'cause the points are there. 

If you want to play a "Real" Technomancer reduce Stealth and/or Athletics and pick up Tasking.

Complex Forms are *meh* this time around IMO.  Sprites are interesting, but could be ignored if you don't want to play a pet class.  If you invest heavy in Tasking and Resonance there are certainly worthwhile things to pick up, but if you don't, you're still as good as a Decker would be.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-20-19/1443:09>
Impaired Attribute goes to a minimum of 2 Maximum on the attribute, the most you could take is a Impaired Strength 6, giving 48 Karma My bad, read the wrong line on the table.

Also, your Essence doesn't add up .96 (Bone Density 4 Alpha) + 2.8 (Muscle Replacement 4) + .6 (Cerebral Booster 3) + 1 (Synaptic Booster 2) = 5.36, leaving you about 0.6 Essence.

The costs are also WAAY off. 24,000¥ (Bone Density 4 Alpha) + 120,000¥ (Muscle Replacement 4) + 94,500¥ (Cerebral Booster 3) + 190,000¥ (Synaptic Booster 2) = 428,500¥. That's 153,500¥ over your resources, and I didn't see anything about Karma for Cash.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-20-19/1504:06>
Muscle Replacement, Cerebral Booster, and Synaptic are all used.  That may explain the Nuyen and Essence discrepancy?  I'll double check the values on my spreadsheet when I get home, though.

I thought Trolls went to Str 9?  Ah well, drop High Pain Threshold and somehow soldier on. 

Thanks!

Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-20-19/1510:00>
Muscle Replacement, Cerebral Booster, and Synaptic are all used.  That may explain the Nuyen and Essence discrepancy?  I'll double check the values on my spreadsheet when I get home, though.

I thought Trolls went to Str 9?  Ah well, drop High Pain Threshold and somehow soldier on. 

Thanks!


Ahh... I somehow missed the "used" attribute. The nuyen and Essence totals work out then. :D

And I had edited my original post, my eyes slipped to the Ork line instead of the Troll line. All good!
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-20-19/1511:47>
No worries, I always appreciate a critical eye.  Thanks again for the double check!
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-20-19/1529:27>
Here's a question, without Resonance, you'd no longer be able to hot sim to the matrix (or even view AR) without a device, correct?
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-20-19/1535:58>
Yeah without resonance you're not a Technomancer. However, 0 Resonance isn't the same thing as no resonance attribute  at all.


And yeah used augmentations are going to revolutionize character designs, methinks. They were always an option, but the price reduction has never compared so favorably against the increased essence.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-20-19/1550:49>
It's on my houserule list. -,- But I'm not posting that list until the PDF is out.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-20-19/1556:49>
5 Karma on Resonance +1 to bounce back up to 1 after hitting 0.  Some version of Burn-out rules or a concrete order of operations could force a change.  Likely dropping Muscle Replacement for Muscle Toner and probably dropping the Bone Augmentation completely to save on Essence / Benefit Points.  Get the Essence loss under 1.999 and buy Resonance up to 3 with Benefit Points and/or Karma, then lose 2 from Augments. 

Exact tweaks would depend on the specifics of any Errata though.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-20-19/1611:52>
I'm not sure you can bounce back though, since the maximum is zero. It's an ongoing question regarding this.

Edit: Ah! Here's where I found it, p. 195:
Quote
Your Submersion grade can’t exceed your Resonance attribute.

With Submersion and Initiate grades starting at 1 (the same is for Magic, p. 167), it means you can't Submerge/Initiate with a zero Resonance/Magic.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-20-19/1638:05>
Correct, but Resonance is 1 at the end of Char gen/before play starts.  5 Karma buys it up from 0 to 1.  Currently RAW.  Was RAW in 5th edition as well, with the caveat that your Max Resonance (Magic) didn't hit 0.  6th Edition doesn't have any burn out rules, and nothing currently reduces Max Resonance (or Magic).   
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-20-19/1713:05>
With the current steps of 2) Assign Priority (sets Resonance to 1), 3) Select Qualities (no increase/decrease), 4) Spend customization (no increase/decrease) then 5) Buy gear. The final step reduces the Essence of your character. With how it reads now (and I know things are fluid on these attributes right now), anytime Essence goes down one whole point, your current Magic/Resonance goes down one point (below). Wouldn't the implication be that you're going down in Resonance from 1 to (effectively) -5 since it starts at 1? I'm reading it that you're not getting free "extra Resonance" that burns off with the Essence loss before it gets to 1, but that when you take the first point of Essence loss, your Resonance drops to zero, and stays there as you go deeper.

Quote from: p. 38
...as your Essence declines (specifically, anytime your Essence goes below any whole integer, you lose a point of Magic...

Errata is trying to clarify a lot of this due to some change blindness in the edition change, so it's not exact yet.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Finstersang on <08-20-19/1727:06>
Dear god, this "bounce back from Zero Magic/Resonance" bullshit is so in need of an Errata, it´s unbelievable. Does anyone really think that this is supposed to be a valid concept for building characters? It turns burning out into an absolute joke as long as you augment yourself to the gills right out of chargen. What do you want to achieve here, Hobbes? Is this supposed to illustrate how ridiculous the new, totally not patchy and defective RAW about burnouts is? Or do you really think that characters like this should be the new meta in Shadowrun? Apparantly, the the first. God, the madness in this Edition has jaded me .

That being said: Even without Errata you can´t "bounce back from Zero" at chargen, because you buy Gear and Augmentations after Karma purchases. You´d have to wait for the first 5 Karma to get your Resonance and your Living Persona back.

(Oh, wait. Please, someone tell me that they haven´t also forgotten to add a line that Technomancers need Resonance to form their living persona....)
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-20-19/1735:23>
Negative attributes have never been a thing in Shadowrun to my knowledge.  Once it hits 0 it stays there AFAIK, just waiting for 5 Karma.

And per the discussion I had in the GM forms where I argued you should do steps in order, I was told I was wrong.  So, here we are.  Numbered steps doesn't mean you do them in order, it's a wacky world.

The "Do things in order" was an argument in 5th edition too, as was the hit 0 and bounce back during chargen, and Used Cultured Bioware.  You've got several threads from .... 2014? was it?  that you can recycle the arguments from.  Pick a side and bring up some Necro-threads if you'd like, I'm in a few of them and have no interest in replaying them. 

I personally welcome Errata or Missions FAQ that clean any of that up either way.  Until then, I roll with what I've got on the .PDF. 
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-20-19/2349:14>
Under that logic we can buy skills at 1 with karma and attributes from 1 to 2, THEN put points in. So I refuse to follow that. Could you link your source?
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-21-19/1131:13>
I believe Hobbes is referring to the discussion we had in the demo team thread titled "SR6 Qualities".

Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-21-19/1140:37>
That's the one.

I'm a missions GM so everything goes through that filter.  "Up to the GM" is very bad for chargen in that filter.  Clear structure good.  Fuzzy GM adjudication bad.  I am totally indifferent to what is decided by the Missions team, as long as I can explain it to a player and that player gets a similar explanation from any other Missions GM.

I got no skin in the game as far as characters go.  It'll be a year or more before I see 6E Missions, much less run/play/make characters.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-21-19/1147:42>
I pretty much agree with the caveat that it shouldn't fall on the Missions team to clarify rules that should have been more clearly phrased and/or conceived to begin with, but I digress. What the next (hopefully biggest and semi-final?) wave of errata looks like, and how long it takes them to get it out, will show us what to expect moving forward in all of product quality control, consideration to player feedback, and the future of this incarnation.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: penllawen on <08-21-19/1149:47>
Metatype   E   Troll 1
...
S   1   5
...
Impared Str 7      -56
Wow. Wow. Thanks, I hate this.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-21-19/1153:15>
Metatype   E   Troll 1
...
S   1   5
...
Impared Str 7      -56
Wow. Wow. Thanks, I hate this.

Consequences of strength being a dump stat! In fairness, I think you will see this on logic and charisma a lot as well, but it won't be to such repulsion as this particular example.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-21-19/1153:53>
That's the one.
So an topic under NDA which in fact never said chargen isn't in order but solely that step 3's karma balance carries over into step 4?! THAT is the base for claiming chargen is in any order?! Are you kidding me?!

No. No. Period. No. The ONLY conclusion you can draw from that discussion is that the intent is it's indeed NET bonus karma aka the difference, and that the difference carries into the customization phase. There is absolutely NOTHING there excusing disregarding the order of steps.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: penllawen on <08-21-19/1157:50>
In fairness, I think you will see this on logic and charisma a lot as well, but it won't be to such repulsion as this particular example.
Indeed, Hobbes's example is... well, not art exactly, but... y'know.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-21-19/1200:26>
The ONLY conclusion you can draw from that discussion is that the intent is it's indeed NET bonus karma aka the difference, and that the difference carries into the customization phase. There is absolutely NOTHING there excusing disregarding the order of steps.

Look man, I do not agree with the position Hobbes argued from in that thread any more than you do. I think all of us (him included) understand what the intention was - but he was 100% correct that that is not what the section says.

The fact we have to use our experience/logic in order to surmise (again, I believe correctly) that the net bonus in fact a net bonus and does carry over is itself disregarding the steps order.

The language just needs cleared up to match the intent.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-21-19/1202:36>
Indeed, Hobbes's example is... well, not art exactly, but... y'know.

Indeed!

I expect this edition will be rife with puny trolls who get a lot of karma for building through a glaring flaw in the system, as well as social pariah elf lepers of insert preferred ass-kicking method here.

Edit: And now I want to build a terrible toxic shaman elf leper named Uncle Badtouch. See what this system does to me!?
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Hobbes on <08-21-19/1203:04>
In fairness, I think you will see this on logic and charisma a lot as well, but it won't be to such repulsion as this particular example.
Indeed, Hobbes's example is... well, not art exactly, but... y'know.

Argument Absurdum is my go to jam. 
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: penllawen on <08-21-19/1243:37>
I'm a missions GM so everything goes through that filter.  "Up to the GM" is very bad for chargen in that filter.  Clear structure good.  Fuzzy GM adjudication bad.  I am totally indifferent to what is decided by the Missions team, as long as I can explain it to a player and that player gets a similar explanation from any other Missions GM.
I was pondering this the other day. I've only ever played RPGs with a stable group of people I know, in which environment frequent handwaving, houseruling, and so on can be perfectly normal. But it must be a very different experience to run Missions or a Living Campaign game, where all the GMs have to be on the same page, and players vary from very roleplaying-focussed to min/maxers. Must be quite a challenge navigating fuzzy rules like this in that environment.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-21-19/1249:49>
But it must be a very different experience to run Missions or a Living Campaign game, where all the GMs have to be on the same page

Compared to my other organized play experiences (Adventure League and Pathfinder), Missions GMs I've played with and seen have been much better at being on the same page. That said, you still get individual GMs who insist on doing stuff their way regardless of what the rules or errata/FAQ/clarification says. Some element of that is unavoidable simply due to the nature of people.

When I was playing my Missions Mystic Adept, I had more than a few GMs that initially refused to let me stack spells with adept powers. I was just fortunate enough to have Ray Rigel at the table, or near the table, when I played for him to set them straight when he was the Teutonic Overlord. <3 Ray.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: penllawen on <08-21-19/1519:00>
Compared to my other organized play experiences (Adventure League and Pathfinder), Missions GMs I've played with and seen have been much better at being on the same page.
Oh, I'm sure. All I'm saying is - that must take a significant amount of effort, both in prep and at the table. Kudos to them for being up for it :)
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-22-19/0908:27>
Oh, I'm sure. All I'm saying is - that must take a significant amount of effort, both in prep and at the table. Kudos to them for being up for it :)

A big part of it is that the demo team won't let just anyone run a game. You have to show some degree of competence in your application. I didn't like that at first, but after seeing how a few of these GMs for other living campaigns have done things, I wish it was required for all of them.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-22-19/1018:51>
Oh, I'm sure. All I'm saying is - that must take a significant amount of effort, both in prep and at the table. Kudos to them for being up for it :)

A big part of it is that the demo team won't let just anyone run a game. You have to show some degree of competence in your application. I didn't like that at first, but after seeing how a few of these GMs for other living campaigns have done things, I wish it was required for all of them.
I do know that for Herolab for Pathfinder (maybe D&D Beyond?) has it in the settings to meet the requirements for Society play, so it will show if the character is valid or not. But if the player doesn't use that, it's up to the GM to validate it.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-22-19/1034:36>
I do know that for Herolab for Pathfinder (maybe D&D Beyond?) has it in the settings to meet the requirements for Society play, so it will show if the character is valid or not. But if the player doesn't use that, it's up to the GM to validate it.

That is helpful for some players and some GMs, but I wasn't referring to sheet/character issues so much. Specifically with Pathfinder, it was GMs changing things/stats in the scenarios (which is flat against the rules in PFS, unlike Missions), changing the way certain class features or feats worked just because they didn't like them, and/or enforcing their house rules at the table.

I will never understand the GM mentality of "I have to challenge the players" or "I need to teach this person a lesson for daring to have fun building characters and bringing them to my table the way they do!". When I sat down to run PFS games, I would ask my table if they wanted me to run "story mode" (focus on RP and run my NPCs as easily as possible), "standard" mode, or "ruthless mode" (I'd use optimal tactics and focus fire hard as the material I had to work with allowed). That question and its answer, and providing the requested experience, was the only thing I concerned myself with past knowing the rules.

I say this as a nerd of the nerd community, but the simple fact of the matter is there are a lot of petty shits in our collective ranks that have no business guiding anyone's fun.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-22-19/1310:44>
I do know that for Herolab for Pathfinder (maybe D&D Beyond?) has it in the settings to meet the requirements for Society play, so it will show if the character is valid or not. But if the player doesn't use that, it's up to the GM to validate it.

That is helpful for some players and some GMs, but I wasn't referring to sheet/character issues so much. Specifically with Pathfinder, it was GMs changing things/stats in the scenarios (which is flat against the rules in PFS, unlike Missions), changing the way certain class features or feats worked just because they didn't like them, and/or enforcing their house rules at the table.

I will never understand the GM mentality of "I have to challenge the players" or "I need to teach this person a lesson for daring to have fun building characters and bringing them to my table the way they do!". When I sat down to run PFS games, I would ask my table if they wanted me to run "story mode" (focus on RP and run my NPCs as easily as possible), "standard" mode, or "ruthless mode" (I'd use optimal tactics and focus fire hard as the material I had to work with allowed). That question and its answer, and providing the requested experience, was the only thing I concerned myself with past knowing the rules.

I say this as a nerd of the nerd community, but the simple fact of the matter is there are a lot of petty shits in our collective ranks that have no business guiding anyone's fun.
Oh... That's not good. In fact, I'd say report them the next time you'd see that happening. They aren't supposed to change anything for PFS.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-22-19/1316:38>
]Oh... That's not good. In fact, I'd say report them the next time you'd see that happening. They aren't supposed to change anything for PFS.

Unfortunately the main local issues was Michael McNerny (sp?), our venture captain for the state lol. Both our attempts to reason with him and to go over his head failed for obvious reasons, so we simply reformed the game day around him and got the store's permission to bar him from playing with us. Vote with your feet when all else fails.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FastJack on <08-22-19/1318:39>
Oh... That's not good. In fact, I'd say report them the next time you'd see that happening. They aren't supposed to change anything for PFS.

Unfortunately the main local issues was Michael McNerny (sp?), our venture captain for the state lol. Both our attempts to reason with him and to go over his head failed for obvious reasons, so we simply reformed the game day around him and got the store's permission to bar him from playing with us. Vote with your feet when all else fails.
WOW.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Lormyr on <08-22-19/1321:36>
WOW.

That is my most extreme example, but hardly the only one. Douchebag GM ratio is about 1/5 from my experience, though SR Missions has been substantially lower than that. One problem guy in 5 years.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: FST_Gemstar on <08-23-19/1158:33>
I'm glad I'm not investing in 6e...

But dont make me roll a 5e troll techno proof... they don't have a lot going for them but they can play.
Title: Re: Tony the Troll Technomancer - 6E
Post by: Sprite on <12-12-22/0048:56>
Im interested in starting a cyberadept...but not going as deep as Tony the troll...ie still a bit of sprite action.

How would a build look like with at most going as low as resonance 3 or 4?
Also, i dont think you cant use used on cultured cyberware, right?

I basically want to go for a technomancer who specializes in going on site, rather than just staying in the van...at least he should have the option to do so.