[Bamce]

Noise only prevents you from getting your witeless bonuses.

Also, how much noise reduction do you think god has?

Ignoring the fact that noise has to be greater than the device rating of a device to knock out its wireless bonus, what kind of device rating gear do you think GOD is using?

In short, a cute atrempt but it doesnt hold up to any scrutiny

[Michael Chandra]

Noise only prevents you from getting your witeless bonuses.

Which incidentally is still a ridiculous errata conclusion. -_- The rules even literally say Wireless Functionality. Under the logic that Noise doesn't block wireless functionality, Jammers literally cannot do what the rules state they can do, namely block internal commlinks from calling out.

[Xenon]

The rules even literally say Wireless Functionality...

The argument here is that the [specific] chapter on Wireless Bonuses are talking about wireless [bonus] functionality rather than wireless [matrix] functionality.

EITHER the Errata team need to clarify that wireless [matrix] functionality is lost if noise (not due to distance) exceeds device rating OR the Errata team need to add crunch for Jammers (and possible other situational sources of noise, such as salt- and fresh water) so that (when they are powerful enough) they will fully prevent wireless [matrix] functionality (similar to that of a Faraday's cage).

I am personally fine either way.

[Finstersang]

Noise only prevents you from getting your witeless bonuses.

Which incidentally is still a ridiculous errata conclusion. -_- The rules even literally say Wireless Functionality. Under the logic that Noise doesn't block wireless functionality, Jammers literally cannot do what the rules state they can do, namely block internal commlinks from calling out.

Agreed. The mushy definition of wireless bonus/functionality is a big fat stink since the very start of 5th Edition. Lets hope that Kill Code can shed some light on this issue. Although this is pretty much Errata territory - shutting of communications is one of the most basic things you want to do when running.

Also, no offense to the ones claiming it, but the RAW interpretation that you simply flat out cant hack things that are not connected to the Matrix is even more ridiculous than assuming that GOD can magically keep track on your illegal activitities when neither you nor your target are "online". Page 232 of the CRB explicitly state that you can hack throwbacks by jacking in directly. That would not make any sense if you cant use any Matrix Actions on them. The contradiction with the statement on page 237 is clearly an oversight. A pretty gross oversight that should have been errata'd years ago, but it wouldnt be the only one in this section of the game  The only question is if you accumulate OS in this case.

According to the reviews of Kill Code on reddit, there are now finally rules for things like offline hosts, killing communications and similar stuff. Lets see if these can clear up this mess.

Meanwhile, to our (highly appreciated!) Errata team: Please have a look into this! These issues are a huge pain since day one, and they come up very often during play.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Also, no offense to the ones claiming it, but the RAW interpretation that you simply flat out cant hack things that are not connected to the Matrix is even more ridiculous than assuming that GOD can magically keep track on your illegal activitities when neither you nor your target are "online".

Woah there.

No one is claiming that a device that isn't connected to the Matrix can't be hacked.
What is being stated is that a hacker that isn't connected to the Matrix can't hack - because they do not have access to their Matrix Actions without access to the Matrix.

Yes, it is rather silly that a Decker has to have Matrix Access in order to hack a device they are directly connected to, but that is what is in the book.  I'd love to have a better official ruling.

[Mirikon]

Faraday cage. Basically turns the hacker's device and the device they're trying to manipulate into a stand-alone network.

[Xenon]

Page 232 of the CRB explicitly state that you can hack throwbacks by jacking in directly. That would not make any sense if you cant use any Matrix Actions on them. 

I think you are wrongly assuming that you are forced to turn off wireless on your deck in order to establish a direct connection to a device.......

Faraday cage. Basically turns the hacker's device and the device they're trying to manipulate into a stand-alone network.

As rules are currently written you can not take matrix actions while inside a Faraday's cage

SR5 p. 237 Matrix actions
Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix.

SR5 p. 231 Noise and Matrix Use
Faraday cage Noise Level: "No signal, action blocked"


One workaround for this is could be to attach a wire between the device on the inside and the wireless enabled decker on the outside.

[Finstersang]

Also, no offense to the ones claiming it, but the RAW interpretation that you simply flat out cant hack things that are not connected to the Matrix is even more ridiculous than assuming that GOD can magically keep track on your illegal activitities when neither you nor your target are "online".

Woah there.

No one is claiming that a device that isn't connected to the Matrix can't be hacked.
What is being stated is that a hacker that isn't connected to the Matrix can't hack - because they do not have access to their Matrix Actions without access to the Matrix.

Yes, it is rather silly that a Decker has to have Matrix Access in order to hack a device they are directly connected to, but that is what is in the book.  I'd love to have a better official ruling.

Huh... gotta admit, that makes some sense. Maybe Decks (and Commlinks, RCCs, Living Personas...) need to draw ressources from the Matrix; that would explain why they would need to stay online when hacking anything.

I´d still prefer if there were rules for hacking in situations where neither the hacker nor the device is connected to the Matrix (Not to mention hacking a device "old school" by accessing it through its own interface). Alas, from what I´ve heard, Kill Code might actually close some gaps here.

[easl]

...I would find it plausible that by 2075 you simply cannot use matrix actions with your commlink until it can connect to the matrix again (because if you can't get on-line then you also cannot authenticate that you are the owner of your commlink or whatever).

Me too...sort of.  First, we are already getting to the point where our linked devices freeze up to some extent when they aren't allowed to connect the way their online programs think they should. In a corporate-run dystopia, there's pretty much no reason to think corporations wouldn't continue this trend (i.e. of not allowing users to access their functionality unless their device was feeding data to the network). Sure, in the faraday cage your deck works exactly as it should. You're getting that neverending hourglass because the Microsoft 54 OS doesn't boot up properly until it can verify through the matrix that you've paid them for your software. And yes, that means every time you open it, because let's face it, that's how Microsoft rolls in a corporate dystopian future.

Second, AIUI real hacking is not just big brains and on the fly tricks; it's 90% the use of prepackaged programs.   If you've bought COTS 'hackware' and that hackware is coded to not start working until it's connected to the greater web, then it won't work to do the hack if you aren't connected.  Again, yes in the faraday cage your deck is working just fine.  Too bad all your software relies on a net-provided timing signal which you're no longer receiving.

But here's where the "sort of" comes in.  Player characters in Shadowrun are (for the most part) illegal anti-corporation criminals who go into dangerous and possibly disconnected places for a living.  It makes no sense for them to be passively accepting these limitations. It may make perfect sense for your average wageslave to be stymied at making a shopping list without a connection to the larger network. But not the mafia hacker who is paid to blast their way into a corporate building so she can hard-connect to that corp's vault and open it. 

So I'd probably assume any PC decker is able to use matrix actions when connected to some sufficiently sophisticated bit of electronica, even if it's disconnected from the worldwide matrix. But I might also consider (as a GM) that this capability may not be something a mere normal user would possess. We could even create a negative quality for it. How's this: "COTS Software. (0, -5 or -10). You use unmodified pre-packaged software, none of which works if it can't connect to the matrix. You cannot perform even the simplest matrix actions when disconnected from the matrix - not even simple things like word processing.  This quality is worth 0 points (and is considered the 'default condition' of most legal residents) if you don't (a) own a deck and (b) have at least one cracking or electronics skill above 2.  It's worth -5 if you have a or b but not both. It's worth -10 if you have both."

[HP15BS]

...I would find it plausible that by 2075 you simply cannot use matrix actions with your commlink until it can connect to the matrix again (because if you can't get on-line then you also cannot authenticate that you are the owner of your commlink or whatever).

Second, AIUI real hacking is not just big brains and on the fly tricks; it's 90% the use of prepackaged programs.   If you've bought COTS 'hackware' and that hackware is coded to not start working until it's connected to the greater web, then it won't work to do the hack if you aren't connected....
. . .
... I'd probably assume any PC decker is able to use matrix actions when connected to some sufficiently sophisticated bit of electronica, even if it's disconnected from the worldwide matrix....

Yeahhhh... except...
Technomancers . . .

Technos alone disprove that whole conceptualization just by their sheer existence. They don't use any programs that require online authentication because they don't use any programs. To do anything. Ever. Because they can't. (without first submerging for that singular program  )

So... yeah. I happen to rather like that headcannon you're working with, but it just doesn't hold up.

I interpret the whole "Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix" line to just be a case of cgl writers cheekily saying you can't hack, trace, etc non-electronics; stop trying to break the game.
It may sound like a silly thing to do, but it wouldn't be the only case of them doing stuff like that.

Concealed quick-draw holster (accessory): ... The holster does not take any slots in your weapon. Please excuse our compulsion to point out fairly obvious stuff like that.

[Finstersang]

The biggest grief here is how extremely counterintuitive some of these concepts are, especially when they are not stated clearly and have to be kind of "extrapolated" from different bits of crunch and fluff.

The new Matrix is, obviously, very cloud-like (it also has some will on its own, and from what I´ve heard, Kill Code has some actually pretty cool fluff on this). Cloud Storage is a familiar concept to most of us: the technology is there for a couple of years and ever growing. However, what is not familiar to us - and therefore should be strongly highlighted is a key difference between the Matrix and our current Internet! - is the fact that using the Cloud is, as it seems, almost mandatory. Up to the point where you need illlegal(!) programs or Augmentations (Data Locks are still a thing) to actually move things out of the Cloud. Up to the point where you can´t hack without a connection to the Matrix because your Deck needs ressources from the Matrix to work (that´s the best explanation I can find for this).

Before Data Trails and the Cloudless Program, no player would have ever assumed that you need a special program to store Data offline. Everyone would have assumed that you can store a File on your Commlink and when you turn the Commlink off, the File disappears from the Matrix (It´s already pretty hard to swallow that everyone can readily see the File without having to, let´s say, Mark the Commlink first). Cloudless, however, leads to the assumption that this is something that you are not actually supposed to do at all - Despite the Terrabytes of storage space every device is supposed to have. There´s another huge suspension of disbelief at work here: After all, the new Matrix is a corporate product. If I were a Matrix security consultant and someone pitched to me a worldwide accessible, no-alternatives, 100%-online, wireless-only digital infrastructure from which I can´t safely remove my precious secrets, I´d be laughing my ass off! There would be dozens of rivaling systems with other protocols - most likely, less efficient, but more secure.

And again, nothing of this is actually stated RAW in a clear and unmistakeable way, everything is just loosely implied by different bits of information. Which leads to the question: Is this really RAI or is it just an oversight? 

From what I´ve heard, Kill Code offers some insight on things like offline Hosts and systems, so there´s hope that we get some much needed clarification here 

[Jayde Moon]

So, The Missions FAQ committee met last night to discuss Kill Code... and this question came up.

So, the first thing is that cloud storage is the DEFAULT mode, but of course devices and hosts have their own storage.

Second, that any network is 'Matrix Capable', you do not have to be connected to the World Wife Matrix to be in 'a' Matrix.

Third, that OS is the result of (non IT guy about to give a hacked up summary) activity indicators cached in the operating device which are part of the Matrix protocols and enable God to hone in on suspicious activity.

Ergo- you develop an OS until you clear your cache (by rebooting), but GOD does not have access to that cache unless/until you are connected to the WWM.  Similar to being in a Host and not being converged on unless you leave the Host with a critical OS, you can wirelessly hack a device (or hack one in a faraday cage) and develop an OS, but won't get converted on unless you somehow get that connectivity back.

This makes sense to me and is the way Missions will be run with the release of the next FAQ.

Previously, I was imagining GOD as tracing oddities in the Matrix and as each string of corrupted data was released, they'd follow the trail like sharks following blood...

Locating cached 'tattletale' data that is simply part of the protocols (and thus not removable if you want to stay on the Matrix) makes a little more sense to me.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Thanks for sharing.  Very helpful info.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Thank you for sharing Jayde Moon.

As something of an IT guy, i'd rather have not gotten the explanation though. 
Don't worry, your words were clear and the concept conveyed.  The concept is what is lacking.  I won't get into it here, though.

Thank you again.

[Finstersang]

Second, that any network is 'Matrix Capable', you do not have to be connected to the World Wife Matrix to be in 'a' Matrix.

That would be exactly what I was hoping for: Basically, whenever you have an "isolated system" (the most common one would be a direct connection between two wireless-disabled devices, but you could also use this to describe a Mesh of wireless devices inside the same Faraday Cage), the members of the system form a kind of of ad-hoc "Mini-Matrix", where the same rules apply as inside of The Matrix - acquire Marks, do stuff, log off.

Even OS could work the same, probably with limited effects on Convergence since you are in GODless territory. The second the "Mini-Matrix" comes into contact with  The Matrix (because one of the devices reconnects to it), GOD takes over.

Seems a lot more reasonable than assuming that any two pieces of electronic need to be connected to the whole internet as well to communicate. From a security perspective, it would be questionable enough that The Matrix is so invasive that it actively "absorbs" other networks. However, that fits the (awesome) new lore on the creation of the new Matrix, so I´m willing to suspend my disbelief here