[Jayde Moon]

A device can either be a Slave or a Master but not both simultaneously.

But I can't seem to locate where this is explicitly stated.  Anyone know?  Or where two or three locations add up to mean this?

Thanks!

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I think this is one of those things that was made official via clarification as a ruling here on the forum.  Lemme see if I can find the post.

Edit: Still looking for something official, but there's generally a consensus of "no daisy chaining" when the question has been previously answered by forumites.
Still, with regards to pure RAW analysis:

PANS and WANS pg: 233, SR5: Your
commlink (or deck) can handle up to (Device Rating x
3) slaved devices, becoming the master device in that
particular relationship.

It only allows devices to be slaves. That's key, because "devices" is a matrix rules crunch term with a very specific and limited meaning.

Commlinks used by your teammates are not devices, but personas (pg. 234 SR5). By pure RAW only commlinks/cyberdecks can be masters (although clearly the RAI is RCCs may be as well) and you can't slave commlinks (in use by a user) to commlinks/cyberdecks because only devices may be slaves.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

A device can either be a Slave or a Master but not both simultaneously.

But I can't seem to locate where this is explicitly stated.  Anyone know?

Kill Code, Page 34, PANs/WANs sidebar:

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master. In a WAN, devices are always slaves, and the master is always the host. Hosts and personas may be masters, but not slaves.

Do note that this paragraph muddies the waters quite a bit.  PANs can consist of only devices.  A Persona is not a device, and therefor can not be part of a PAN.
Unless a Persona can also be a Device at the same time, and then that opens up a whole host of worms, including overruling Aaron's ruling that an icon can not be a Device and a Persona at the same time....

[DigitalZombie]

And then you have the "one with the matrix" quality from kill code where a technomancers persona can join a PAN or WAN as a slave. And/Or as a master in a PAN....

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

And then you have the "one with the matrix" quality from kill code where a technomancers persona can join a PAN or WAN as a slave. And/Or as a master in a PAN....

That's explainable as a case of specific rule trumping a general rule. If it could already be done, then there's no reason for the quality (and hence the rule) to exist.

Still, it's perfectly clear that the intent is that items such as commlinks are intended to master PANs. The use of "device" in the crunch in a possibly non-crunch context is unfortunate.  SR5 really needs to capitalize crunch terms so Device is clearly distinct from device.

I'm personally sure "slaved devices" in the SR5 quote meant "slaved Devices" while simultaneously "master device" and "consists only of devices" in the Kill Code quote are referring to "devices".

[Grizzly]

Kill Code, Page 34, PANs/WANs sidebar:

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master. In a WAN, devices are always slaves, and the master is always the host. Hosts and personas may be masters, but not slaves.

Do note that this paragraph muddies the waters quite a bit.  PANs can consist of only devices.  A Persona is not a device, and therefor can not be part of a PAN.
Unless a Persona can also be a Device at the same time, and then that opens up a whole host of worms, including overruling Aaron's ruling that an icon can not be a Device and a Persona at the same time....

I'm not sure where the confusion is ISP.  The Kill Code quote you give states explicitly that a Persona can be a Master in a PAN.  Personas can only be formed by directly using a 'link or deck.  Therefore, the 'link or deck you use to form your Persona can act as the master of your PAN.  All the other items in your PAN must be devices - so you can have a second 'link or deck in your PAN, but you can't be plugged in/use it directly (as that would form a Persona which can't be a Slave).  But your smart-gun, etc, can all be part of your PAN with your in-use 'link as the Master.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The confusion is in the first part... "PANs consist only of devices..".

If that's a crunch term, it just eliminated Personas from PANs.  If it's a descriptive term, then it's an unfortunate word choice since device is also a crunch term.

I think the intent is generally clear to everyone tho that PANs are what you say: 1 Persona serving as the master "device", and X slave devices connected to the master.  But the rub is proving what the OP is asking for via RAW without invoking RAI. The KC quote at least confirms what appears to be implied in core that one "matrix thing" cannot  be both a PAN master and PAN slave (and therefore no PAN daisychaining is possible)... which I believe is as best a citation we're likely to get for the OP.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

I'm not sure where the confusion is ISP.  The Kill Code quote you give states explicitly that a Persona can be a Master in a PAN.

The confusion is that not only is English not a hard science, we live in a world with many different languages and even more degrees of competency in said languages.

That same quote is kind of like comparing squares and rectangles.

All squares are rectangles.
Not all rectangles are squares.

Personas can be PAN masters.
But that quote also says that PANs only consist of devices, which a Persona is not.

So, reading directly, a Persona can be a master of a PAN, and at the same time can not be a part of a PAN.

It doesn't really matter what it means to you, or me, or any individual on these forums.
What matters is how it is taken to mean by the most people, and for those that have to answer anyone who doesn't take it in the official manner to know where the confusion is, and how to respond to it if it comes up.

If Shadowrun was simply a "home game," it would matter even less.  With Missions trying to be a Living Campaign with the 5E rules though, more clarity is really needed.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So, I had one of those epiphanies that are only possible while you're out for a walk.

Over in another thread I've been trying to juggle what the heck is the purpose of a PAN icon, what since commlinks run Persona icons and Devices run Device icons.

And it hit me that one answer works for that thread AND this one:

Commlinks are in PANs, but maybe Personas aren't in PANs.  The PAN icon is the matrix representation of a PAN, run by the master device.  It can still be a commlink, even if the commlink is also/simultaneously running a separate Persona icon. There is precedent in the rules for a comm device running multiple icons (Agents, AI, etc) so there shouldn't be any reason why a commlink can't run a Persona icon AND a PAN icon. It quite clearly can run both a Persona and a PAN at the same time, afterall.

So the line "PANs consist only of devices" actually CAN be read as a crunch term without problem. The SR5 quote "When is a device not a device? When it's a persona!" (pg 234) still works.  The commlink "is" a persona when the issue at hand relates to the persona, and is still simultaneously a device in other contexts... such as when powered off, not in active use, and when serving as the PAN master device!

[Michael Chandra]

I always went with 'your persona might not be part of it, but the device it's on still is'.

[Grizzly]

I appreciate that English can be a difficult language and is not everyone's primary form of communication.  I do want to point out something that seems to be overlooked and could be what is causing the conceptual problem - which is that there is a difference between the physical piece of gear and the icon representing that gear in the Matrix.


A Device is a physical piece of hardware (SR5 p215: device: A piece of gear that performs functions integral to a network.)
Each physical Device also has a Device Icon on the Matrix (SR5 p234: And if it's a device, it's in the Matrix.)
A Persona is an icon (SR5 p216: persona: A user, agent, or other autonomous or semi-autonomous icon in the Matrix.)
This Device Icon is overridden with a Persona Icon if it has a User (SR5 p218).  But this is solely a change in the iconography in the Matrix - there is no evidence that it has any other impact on the physical Device or the network it may be a part of.

A PAN is a term relating to Devices (pieces of gear) in a network (SR5 p216: The set of devices slaved...).  It consists of a Master and a set of Slave Devices (SR5 p233).  Unless a Slave Device is of particular interest (i.e. a weapon like a gun) to reduce visual clutter in the Matrix the Icons of all the Slave Devices are not shown, and the Master Device displays a different type of Icon that represents it is the Master of a PAN although it may (user's discretion) still look like the Icon of the Master Device in the PAN (SR5 p217 and p219).


The only point lacking clarity that I can see is this: in a PAN you normally only see the PAN Icon generated by the Master Device.  If you generate a Persona Icon on the Master Device this would normally replace the Device Icon which in this case is the PAN Icon, therefore the PAN Icon may also disappear.  This means that looking at someone you would only see their Persona Icon and any dangerous Devices (such as a gun whose individual Icon is always visible separately).